Comments on: The True Definition of Privilege: Protestants and Jews Sharply Underrepresented in U.S. Military http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/the_true_defini.html The War of Ideas in the Middle East Sun, 27 May 2012 20:06:02 +0000 hourly 1 By: anon http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/the_true_defini.html/comment-page-1#comment-75213 anon Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2006/08/15/the_true_defini.html#comment-75213 <p>The median age of all US adults is 43 years. For Jews its is 51, and for Muslims it is 28, for Buddhists it is 29. The Median age of the military is 23. (http://www.gc.cuny.edu/press_information/current_releases/october_2001_aris.htm)</p> <p>Jews and Muslims are more likely to not identify their religion, this alone could discredit this "research".</p> <p>Your work is crap.</p> The median age of all US adults is 43 years. For Jews its is 51, and for Muslims it is 28, for Buddhists it is 29. The Median age of the military is 23. (link to gc.cuny.edu

Jews and Muslims are more likely to not identify their religion, this alone could discredit this "research".

Your work is crap.

]]> By: jimmy http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/the_true_defini.html/comment-page-1#comment-75214 jimmy Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2006/08/15/the_true_defini.html#comment-75214 <p>Bored with jews already.</p> Bored with jews already.

]]> By: Mike Hyland http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/the_true_defini.html/comment-page-1#comment-75215 Mike Hyland Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2006/08/15/the_true_defini.html#comment-75215 <p>I suppose that by looking at privilege in American society crystallizes the justification of the current or any middle-eastern conflict, because fundamentally, these military affairs are about the abuse of power. The incompatibility between the religious breakdown of American society and American military forces tempts accusations of sectarianism, and although true the statement is still sectarian and unhelpful. It just stokes a well fuelled fire (what?s that about lies, dammed lies and statistics). <br /> ( FYI, anon?s comment on median ages is a little naﶥ, in that if there are differing median ages within American society , it just points at the ultimate privilege of a longer life enjoyed by some parts of the community ! ). So what about the oil? If you want to understand power and privilege, then take a moment with the oil. Peel away the layers to get at or near the core of this issue, the control of oil. Who stands to gain here?</p> I suppose that by looking at privilege in American society crystallizes the justification of the current or any middle-eastern conflict, because fundamentally, these military affairs are about the abuse of power. The incompatibility between the religious breakdown of American society and American military forces tempts accusations of sectarianism, and although true the statement is still sectarian and unhelpful. It just stokes a well fuelled fire (what?s that about lies, dammed lies and statistics).
( FYI, anon?s comment on median ages is a little naﶥ, in that if there are differing median ages within American society , it just points at the ultimate privilege of a longer life enjoyed by some parts of the community ! ). So what about the oil? If you want to understand power and privilege, then take a moment with the oil. Peel away the layers to get at or near the core of this issue, the control of oil. Who stands to gain here?

]]> By: anon http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/the_true_defini.html/comment-page-1#comment-75216 anon Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2006/08/15/the_true_defini.html#comment-75216 <p>Median age has much less to to do with longevity than it has to do with immigration trends. </p> <p>There are 19 million ways to dice up the demographic of the US military- regional, socio-economic, racial, etc. Religion, which is secondary to these as a driving variable, is the one Weiss uses because of his prejudices.</p> <p>You are 100 percent correct- it is all about oil. The Palestinian cause has been a tool for the oil-rich Middle East countries to deflect attention off their own oppressive, corrupt societies.</p> <p>In 50 years, or so, when these countries run dry of oil- they will be broke, powerless and entirely irrelevant.</p> <p>Hopefully, The Observer will replace Weiss with someone that has a clue what he is talking about. The Observer must, by now, have a clue of what they have on their hands- a liability.</p> Median age has much less to to do with longevity than it has to do with immigration trends.

There are 19 million ways to dice up the demographic of the US military- regional, socio-economic, racial, etc. Religion, which is secondary to these as a driving variable, is the one Weiss uses because of his prejudices.

You are 100 percent correct- it is all about oil. The Palestinian cause has been a tool for the oil-rich Middle East countries to deflect attention off their own oppressive, corrupt societies.

In 50 years, or so, when these countries run dry of oil- they will be broke, powerless and entirely irrelevant.

Hopefully, The Observer will replace Weiss with someone that has a clue what he is talking about. The Observer must, by now, have a clue of what they have on their hands- a liability.

]]> By: Rowan Berkeley http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/the_true_defini.html/comment-page-1#comment-75217 Rowan Berkeley Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2006/08/15/the_true_defini.html#comment-75217 <p>I must say, I am getting a little bored with the quality of the discussion here. Phil unendingly posts items which, while not of academic calibre, constitute perfectly reasonable lay observations of the US-Israeli power nexus, and endless trolls emerge, or rather, fail to emerge from anonymity, calling for him to be sacked. It says little for the quality of American Jewish discourse, unless one regards Stalin style mass thought and expression control as a step in the direction of Jewish 'social justice'.</p> <p>I don't think David Grossman really merits the term "peace activist", incidentally.</p> I must say, I am getting a little bored with the quality of the discussion here. Phil unendingly posts items which, while not of academic calibre, constitute perfectly reasonable lay observations of the US-Israeli power nexus, and endless trolls emerge, or rather, fail to emerge from anonymity, calling for him to be sacked. It says little for the quality of American Jewish discourse, unless one regards Stalin style mass thought and expression control as a step in the direction of Jewish 'social justice'.

I don't think David Grossman really merits the term "peace activist", incidentally.

]]> By: Mike Hyland http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/the_true_defini.html/comment-page-1#comment-75218 Mike Hyland Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2006/08/15/the_true_defini.html#comment-75218 <p>Any comment, if judgemental is un-helpful. Any written judgemental comment is exponentially so. So the forum i.e. the Observer is good for providing a conduit for the debate, but the debate lacks something. This isn't "easy", the Truth and Reconciliation process in SA continues as a difficult and painful event, in my own Ireland, we continue to emerge drenched in uncertainty making baby steps towards a solution. All is propaganda, unless it speaks to and talks about a readily acknowledged reality. We need to make up our minds about whether we believe or not, but the newspaper has permitted the debate and absolutely, this is good thing, no matter what is thought of Weiss or the blog commentary. I agree with anon's comment about the future irrelevancy of the middle-east, because we Westerners will have no interest there anymore, having drained it dry of oil. In the meantime, we Westerners continue to wreak havoc and subvert legitimate democratic processes. A good balance to this commentary might be Robert Fisk's articles in the English Independent (website). He has invested a huge amount of his life in giving an account on Middle and far eastern affairs. He has been repeatedly called "pro-Arab", I'm not sure, but would be interested in hearing other opinions. Finally, I found this forum last week and have no idea of past reports or prejudices, so start today. Anon's comment on median is real, although vague, do you means most of Jewish median group are immigrants i.e. ineligible for military service?</p> Any comment, if judgemental is un-helpful. Any written judgemental comment is exponentially so. So the forum i.e. the Observer is good for providing a conduit for the debate, but the debate lacks something. This isn't "easy", the Truth and Reconciliation process in SA continues as a difficult and painful event, in my own Ireland, we continue to emerge drenched in uncertainty making baby steps towards a solution. All is propaganda, unless it speaks to and talks about a readily acknowledged reality. We need to make up our minds about whether we believe or not, but the newspaper has permitted the debate and absolutely, this is good thing, no matter what is thought of Weiss or the blog commentary. I agree with anon's comment about the future irrelevancy of the middle-east, because we Westerners will have no interest there anymore, having drained it dry of oil. In the meantime, we Westerners continue to wreak havoc and subvert legitimate democratic processes. A good balance to this commentary might be Robert Fisk's articles in the English Independent (website). He has invested a huge amount of his life in giving an account on Middle and far eastern affairs. He has been repeatedly called "pro-Arab", I'm not sure, but would be interested in hearing other opinions. Finally, I found this forum last week and have no idea of past reports or prejudices, so start today. Anon's comment on median is real, although vague, do you means most of Jewish median group are immigrants i.e. ineligible for military service?

]]> By: Jay http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/the_true_defini.html/comment-page-1#comment-75219 Jay Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2006/08/15/the_true_defini.html#comment-75219 <p>Your comments about the ruling elite may hold water at mid and higher levels of society but break down when discussing the military. </p> <p>The true under/over representation is not about religion, its about color: Brown//Black/white. That's where the true difference lies.</p> Your comments about the ruling elite may hold water at mid and higher levels of society but break down when discussing the military.

The true under/over representation is not about religion, its about color: Brown//Black/white. That's where the true difference lies.

]]> By: Martini Cocoa http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/the_true_defini.html/comment-page-1#comment-75220 Martini Cocoa Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2006/08/15/the_true_defini.html#comment-75220 <p>even if the stats represent fuzzy thinking....the point still remains that the children of the elite are protected from sharing their military burden during this time of war.</p> <p>I mean aren't we all Americans? Didn't 9/11 reaffirm the fact that regardless of our differences that we are all Americans in the fight together?</p> <p>Because if it's not true -- I'm starting to think it's okay for the children of the poor, working and middle class to carry all the weight in the US fight against terrorism so someone else's child can grow up and ultimately appear at Charlie Rose's wonderful, sturdy, meaningful table and pontificate about protecting America's interests, by any means necessary.</p> even if the stats represent fuzzy thinking….the point still remains that the children of the elite are protected from sharing their military burden during this time of war.

I mean aren't we all Americans? Didn't 9/11 reaffirm the fact that regardless of our differences that we are all Americans in the fight together?

Because if it's not true — I'm starting to think it's okay for the children of the poor, working and middle class to carry all the weight in the US fight against terrorism so someone else's child can grow up and ultimately appear at Charlie Rose's wonderful, sturdy, meaningful table and pontificate about protecting America's interests, by any means necessary.

]]> By: Robert Hume http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/the_true_defini.html/comment-page-1#comment-75221 Robert Hume Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2006/08/15/the_true_defini.html#comment-75221 <p>As far as black and brown casualties in the war. A cursory look at the pictures of the dead shows that about 90% are white. They are over-represented because minorities are disqualified in the military ASQT? exam.</p> <p>There are plenty of non-invidious explanations for the under-representation of Jews and Episcopalians ... they tend not to concentrate in the most patriotic (red) parts of the country.</p> <p>Or, it can be family wealth alone making the military not seem like a relatively good career path.</p> <p>These factors of 2 (Episcopalians) or 4 (Jews) are small compared to the factors of 30 or so for Jews and Asians in the Ivy League. If we are to allow any slack in any system we have to allow factors of 2-4 over or under representation of small groups before we take action.</p> <p>On the other hand, a discrpancy of a factor of 3 in white Christian admission to elite schools seem to cry out for correction. The masses are not represented.</p> As far as black and brown casualties in the war. A cursory look at the pictures of the dead shows that about 90% are white. They are over-represented because minorities are disqualified in the military ASQT? exam.

There are plenty of non-invidious explanations for the under-representation of Jews and Episcopalians … they tend not to concentrate in the most patriotic (red) parts of the country.

Or, it can be family wealth alone making the military not seem like a relatively good career path.

These factors of 2 (Episcopalians) or 4 (Jews) are small compared to the factors of 30 or so for Jews and Asians in the Ivy League. If we are to allow any slack in any system we have to allow factors of 2-4 over or under representation of small groups before we take action.

On the other hand, a discrpancy of a factor of 3 in white Christian admission to elite schools seem to cry out for correction. The masses are not represented.

]]> By: hey http://mondoweiss.net/2006/08/the_true_defini.html/comment-page-1#comment-75222 hey Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2006/08/15/the_true_defini.html#comment-75222 <p>This just exposes Phil's ignorance of the military. Nearly everyone in the military with any sort of responsibility absolutely does not want a draft. </p> <p>Never mind some concern with the privilege of the elite, consider the problems of a draft: fast turnover. Any serious draft, like Israel's, takes in everyone. No school exemptions, no parental exemptions, no fitness issues. Everyone serves in some way. This costs a ridiculous amount of money.</p> <p>What we have now, a fairly high paid force of motivated, career oriented people where a substantial proportion of the force is long service and all of the force is on at least a 4 year hitch. This creates a motivated, skilled, and experienced force that knows what it is doing and wants to be there.</p> <p>A real, egalitarian universal conscription or serious draft has a large number of people who simply don't want to be there. This creates discipline and motivation problems. A draft creates even more resentment at those lucky enough to avoid service or to get exemptions if offered (see Vietnam). </p> <p>There are cultural problems with a professional military. Mainly we get an effete elite that disdains honor, service, valor, and country. If we could have mandatory universal service for 6 years or so it would be a great thing, as well as being deeply, deeply scary for the rest of the world. That would provide a military of about 12 million men, or 24 million people if you go with the Israeli true universal conscription model. We would need a serious defense budget, likely at least 20-25% of GDP, but we would eliminate most costs of prison, policing, welfare, etc. You remove the portion of the population that causes the most problems, have a serious manufacturing demand, and essentially eliminate youth unemployment and have a fully trained workforce. </p> <p>With that kind of force, we can garrison the Middle East and South America as well as ensure Peace in Asia and Europe. America Imperator. I love it, though I imagine Weiss is horrified.</p> This just exposes Phil's ignorance of the military. Nearly everyone in the military with any sort of responsibility absolutely does not want a draft.

Never mind some concern with the privilege of the elite, consider the problems of a draft: fast turnover. Any serious draft, like Israel's, takes in everyone. No school exemptions, no parental exemptions, no fitness issues. Everyone serves in some way. This costs a ridiculous amount of money.

What we have now, a fairly high paid force of motivated, career oriented people where a substantial proportion of the force is long service and all of the force is on at least a 4 year hitch. This creates a motivated, skilled, and experienced force that knows what it is doing and wants to be there.

A real, egalitarian universal conscription or serious draft has a large number of people who simply don't want to be there. This creates discipline and motivation problems. A draft creates even more resentment at those lucky enough to avoid service or to get exemptions if offered (see Vietnam).

There are cultural problems with a professional military. Mainly we get an effete elite that disdains honor, service, valor, and country. If we could have mandatory universal service for 6 years or so it would be a great thing, as well as being deeply, deeply scary for the rest of the world. That would provide a military of about 12 million men, or 24 million people if you go with the Israeli true universal conscription model. We would need a serious defense budget, likely at least 20-25% of GDP, but we would eliminate most costs of prison, policing, welfare, etc. You remove the portion of the population that causes the most problems, have a serious manufacturing demand, and essentially eliminate youth unemployment and have a fully trained workforce.

With that kind of force, we can garrison the Middle East and South America as well as ensure Peace in Asia and Europe. America Imperator. I love it, though I imagine Weiss is horrified.

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