On Thursday night at the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue, 30 W. 68th Street in New York, a number of Jews including myself will be on a panel about "How Do We Talk About Israel?" The discussion is about: how to have the discussion. I’ll be rehearsing some of my lines here in the next couple days.
The panel is being organized by Dan Fleshler, an old friend, and fellow soul-searcher, known as Realistic Dove. Dan is writing a book about the Israel lobby, though he is more sympathetic to its actions than I am. And more knowledgeable. (He is more Jewish-identified than I am, and more concerned about the consequences of broaching one of my favorite subjects, dual loyalty.)
Note Dan’s latest post, in which he assigns some blame for the Gaza collapse to the Israel lobby. Excerpt:
In light of recent
events, it is heartbreaking to recall both the hope that was generated
when Abbas initially took over the Palestinian Authority and the role
of the U.S. government –abetted by AIPAC– in dashing that hope….Fatah might have been driven out of Gaza regardless of what
the U.S. and American Jews did or didn’t do. I am sure that the
cabal-watchers in the blogosphere will devote themselves to blaming the
Zionists for everything that has happened in the Gaza Strip in recent
days, and I can predict in advance that their claims will be absolutely
ridiculous. No one forced the Palestinians to elect Hamas. No one
forced them to kill each other on the streets of Gaza City. Still, a certain amount of soul-searching in the liberal American Jewish community is in order.
Phil, concerning your Thursday klatch. Don't you think it's time for us to stop catering to the pretense that discussion of the Israel lobby is a "Jewish subject"?
link to ameinu.net
To allow the subject to be framed as something about Jewishness rather than about justice is to concede the argument. Someone has to take a principled stand against this kind of falseness or it's just going to go on forever.
clean up possible?
the core problem is the mullah junta that serves the 4-5 oligarch families of tehran. /iranian/
this junta controls the hamas executive force proxi. iranians trained them and launched them.
it is another setback in the palestinian history
the palestinians need a unifying abraham lincoln who can reclaim sanity and negotiate a constructive peaceful compromise with the israelis.
his moral repesctability must exclude islamic myths and alliances to the muslim brotherhood and the mullah junta.
we can request a moral clean-up from the messy israelis, too.
they have to discard the orthodoxy and all other unenlightened myths. the old political guard had a heavy baggage. time to change views……and clean up……
By the way, Dan Fleshler writes as if he doesn't know that Israel and the U.S. were smuggling arms and funds into the Fatah militias in order to create a civil war.
Here is a little civics lesson for Dan.
Question: What is the point of the democratic election process?
Answer: That rival groups don't shoot it out but vote it out.
After last year's election Fatah accepted it's defeat and didn't try to revers the result by shooting it out. But from day one after the election the Israelis and Bushies worked to create a situation – by not accepting Hamas' legitimacy and arming Fatah – to have it shooted out in order to say: Stop the shooting, let's have a new election.
Steve wrote: "the palestinians need a unifying abraham lincoln"
There were several promising ones Steve. They were assassinated.
There was a reason Israel kept Arafat alive instead. And there is a reason Israel likes Abbas. The same reason that made Israel help in the creation of Hamas.
Because Israel wants no peace.
Here is another lesson (more advanced).
Question: What creates a 'demographic threat'? People having too many children.
Answer: Economic desperation.
On day one after the Hamas' election victory, an Israeli official said that they would put them "on a diet", driving them into further economic desperation (expecting the European Union to keep them just above starvation level).
I often wonder whether "progressives" like ToughDove even HEAR about policies like the Weissglass Diet, or if their great fear of encountering "antisemitism" has the side benefit of keeping them blissfully ignorant.
Guys, the problem is that the Palestinians are a bunch of nihilists who love to engage in lets throw the other guy off the roof with his hands tied behind his back day. Witness the green houses that were donated to them b Mort Zuckerman and a consortium of American Jewish donors. Here was the chance for a thriving export industry and all they had to do was not attack the karni crossing point and not destroy the green houses. And they could do niether. Its in their nature and the evidence is there.
Zionist racism is being discussed in another thread, Bill.
link to philipweiss.org
Dave, let me bounce this one off of you my man. Your the racist. I expect or let me put it this way hope, that the Palestinians will engage in normal civilized behavior. You on the other hand accept the fact that they act like psychotic serial killer animals. And seem to think that's ok. Who is the racist Dave. I think it's you
If Israel really wanted peace it would accept the Arab League Peace Plan (accepted by Arafat in 02). However, Israel is greedy for Palestinian land, water resources, etc and thus prefers to use the inhumane occupation to breed terrorists.
Minor problem there Courtney my love. When was that plan formally put on the table by an envoy in Jerusalem. That's how things are done. Also, when did they actually have avote on that thing. Third, did Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran sign on. Lastly, who exactly should Israel negotiate the details with on this. Lastly, if you were the Israeli PM would you put Hamas up on the west bank ridge line with rockets, would you?
David,
Are you a Hamas agent, or are you on the payroll of a foreign government here to dispense propoganda in the same manner that you excuse of Jews of doing so?
Uri Avnery warned already months ago that overcrowding in the open air prison Gaza, linked to deprivation of the most basic essentials of life, would have the result it has had in other prison populations: violence.
But there are of course very specific political reasons for this violence as well.
We had here a democratically elected government that was not to the taste of the US. It wanted a ‘moderate’ at the top in Gaza, read: somebody who takes his orders from the US and Israel.
Hamas had good reason to assume that this ‘moderate’ was the millionaire Mohammad Dahlan, warlord and head of the Fatah-linked militia named ‘Preventive Security Force’.
‘Preventive Security Force’ indeed. What had to be prevented here was that the democratically elected representatives of a movement that is not to the taste of the US would occupy their rightful places.
So Dahlan’s Force was abundantly supplied with weapons, courtesy of the US.
Hamas did its own bit of ‘prevention’ and secured with weapons what the ballot box had already given them.
This seems to me the gist of it.
Bill,
if the abominable Palestinian behavior "is in their nature" as you said, than there is no hope to civilize them – and you should maybe advise Israel to consider a 'final solution'.
How about the Palestinians living in the US, do they show the same "nature" as the ones in Gaza?
Actually Klaus, put Arabs in the US, has opposed to Germany, witness the Hamburg cell, they're fine. Because our system of governement allows that. But, put them in charge, ie the gaza strip, and well the evidence is there. Can you really argue that.
Re" comments by Pearlman 6/17 All 22 Arab states, including Syria,Iraq,Lebanon, etc. accepted the Arab League Peace Plan. Even Hamas has said that adopting this plan would be followed by long-term peace assuming the Israelis were also peaceful. Unfortuately, rather than accept peace, the powerful Israel Lobby, which pushed us into war with Iraq, is now pushing us into war with Iran. Iran is no threat to us and as reported by Nicholas Kristoff (April 29 2007 NY Times), Iran would accept the Arab League Peace Plan, etc if we ended our various belligerent actions. Also, if Israeli-occupied lands in Lebanon and Syria were returned and a Palestinian state created, Hezbollah would have no more raison d'etre. However, the Israel Lobby is happy to destroy America for 2200 square miles of land. (Incidentally, in case you don't know, currently, Rice and various Arab states are trying to persuade Israel to sign onto the plan.)
Lot of ifs there Courtney. I know you have amazing trust in the Arabs but why hasn't this plan been formally presented to Israel on a government by government basis. And please cite the vote to me, date and time. And what exactly does a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem mean? And if the Arabs sudenly get in a position where they could put rockets up on the west bank ridge line and decide the paper is null and void, what the n Courtney. What I'm asking is this, what assurances will Israel have, particularly given whats going on in the Gaza strip that things will be adhered too.
Goldhagen
Arie – you (or anyone else) might find my comments on Goldhagen on Phil's Yiddish entry (June 13th) interesting.
Bill, brother dude, what were Palestinians like before they were kicked off their land by caprice?
Re: Pearlman 6/18 Mid-May, before our policy of arming Fatah in hopes of fomenting civil war with Hamas achieved success, the papers were full of talk of peace: example NYTimes 5/11/07 "Israeli Meets Egypt's Chief; More Talks Set; Arab Peace Plan to be Discussed." A good op-ed NYTimes, 5/11 by Lebanese PM Siniora is titled "Give the Arab Peace Initiative A Chance." Israel rejected the plan in 2002, but discussions are again underway. Regarding refugees (a main sticking point) the problem is that Israel refuses any refugees because of the fear that Israel would then not be a Jewish State since Arabs could eventually outvote them. Solution: Israel can't be both a democracy and a Jewish state without extensive ethnic cleansing. Thus it should just proclaim itself a Jewish State and forget about democracy. See http://www.dundeesblog.blogspot.com entry "Refugees' Rights" 4/12/07.
Klaus, I responded to your Goldhagen comments there.
VIEWERS GET WHITEWASHED VERSION OF HISTORY
link to thestar.com
"[Six Days in June producer] Fichman said that PBS demanded entire scenes and sequences come out, and others be softened.
"'PBS is really not a liberal left-wing broadcaster,' says Fichman. 'It's subscription and sponsor-based, with members of the Jewish community among its supporters.'"