Re Joachim Martillo and the ‘Heinous’ Issue

US Politics
on 36 Comments

I don’t share Joachim Martillo’s view of the Holocaust. The Nazi crimes define the word heinous. I don’t see the expulsion of Arabs from Palestine in ’47-’48 as comparable to the Holocaust. I’m also not going to be blocking Martillo from commenting here because I feel it is important to have an open discussion, including about the sacralization of the Holocaust in American Jewish life in the 70s. Before that period, in my family, it was "the 6 million." Then it became the Holocaust; and obviously this is not just a spiritual recognition but a politicization (just go to Yad Vashem, which has its own very Zionist interpretation). One of my themes here is that Jews are strong enough and well-situated enough, and the principle of free speech is strong enough, for us to have an open discussion about these things, with everyone participating, without a pogrom starting.

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36 Responses

  1. cooper
    June 19, 2007, 1:42 pm

    OK. I'll open up with the first comment.

    1. Why is the number "6 Million" so prominent in Jewish/Zionist history?

    2. Why did the number stay at the mythical "6 Million" even after the "official" count of Jewish deaths at Auschwitz was dropped from 4mm to 2mm and beyond?

  2. J.C.S Martillo
    June 19, 2007, 2:30 pm

    Among scholars that study the Holocaust or modern Central and Eastern European history, the 6 million figure is not so important.

    Estimates of the number of Jews murdered ranges from 4-6 million. I used to agree with Raul Hilberg, who used a 5 million figure, but Soviet data suggests that he overestimated.

    As far as I know, the figures provided by the Polish government at the Auschwitz memorial were not input to any scholar's calculation of the number of Jewish victims during WW2.

    In recent years, the Polish government adjusted the Auschwitz memorial numbers to agree with those provided by historians.

  3. Larry
    June 19, 2007, 7:33 pm

    Phil,
    I think you are in a tough spot. I respect your argument that you want to keep an open dialog. But allowing specious comments by Holocaust trivializers and rank anti-Semites taints your message and, in my opinion, drives away the kind of open-minded people you want to dialog with.

    The rap on people who critize Israel is that they are anti-Semites. You, on the other hand, are a humane, thoughtful critic of Zionism who is not an anti-Semite. Yours is an important voice. But you have attracted a growing number, it seems, of extreme anti-Jewish racists to your blog. I fear Gresham's Law may be at work here. And it is a shame. It is very easy for those who should take you seriously to dismiss your ideas because of the company you keep here.

    I feel it is long past time to debate people who quibble over 5 million or 6 million and argue that the Jews used their mythical power to bring industrial-strength mass murder upon themselves. It doesn't need to be countered because it is so marginal. It just needs to be ignored. Why give such views a forum? My feeling is: Yuck! Who wants to have anything to do with that?

  4. Arie Brand
    June 19, 2007, 8:31 pm

    "a growing number … of extreme anti-Jewish racists" ??

    Strange, I have only participated in this blog for a short time but I have (except for the Martillo post) seen nothing of the kind.

    In fact my prize for the most racist comments goes to Bill Pearlman, a rabid defender of Israel. At first I half and half suspected that he was a creature of Phil's imagination, put in to provide some counterpoint (if we all agreed with each other we could soon stop talking couldn't we?). However I have dropped that idea. Phil would have given him more intelligent lines if that were the case.

    About racism and anti-Semitism, it is all a bit confusing, because one of France's most prestigious public intellectuals and philosophers, Alain Finkielkraut, has assured us that anti-racism is in fact anti-Semitism.

    I have quoted him under an entry nobody seems to look at any more so here he is again:

    When Mr.Finkielkraut visited Canada two years ago he declared in an interview published in the Canadian Jewish News of 9/22/05 inter alia:

    "…traditional French anti-Semitism is bloodless, tired, moribund….the new anti-Semitism is, by contrast, vigorous, lively and continuously expanding. The old anti-Semitism of French pedigree is in its death throes, the new developing anti-Semitism expresses itself in the name of the religion of humanity. Not, in name of the nation, against the belief in the equality of people and the equality of human rights, but in name of the religion of humanity. The Jews are reproached for betraying these rights. It is an anti-Semitism one cannot accuse by referring to the past because it has nothing to do with the past. It is not an anti-Semitism of a racial type, against which people generally mobilise. It is an anti-racist anti-Semitism."

    And also,

    "We are not dealing here with racial hatred against which Jews could protest by dragging their detractors before tribunals. How can one combat anti-racist hatred? That is very difficult."

    I bet it is.

  5. Arie Brand
    June 19, 2007, 8:48 pm

    I have called the earlier Martillo post 'outrageous' and here is why.

    The insinuation that there was, somehow, a justification for this mass murder is absolutely and totally beyond the pale.

    In fact the 'defense' given: 'Germany was engaged in a life and death struggle' could have come straight out of the mouth of Hitler.

    In fact this, or something very similar, did come out of the mouth of Hitler. It was when Henny Hoffmann, the wife of the Nazi party's youth leader, Baldur Von Schirach, protested to Hitler about the treatment of the Jews. She had just come back from occupied Amsterdam where she had seen a 'razzia' against the Jewish population there and was apparently very upset about it.

    Why wasn't she shot? She was, apart from being Von Schirach's wife, the daughter of Heinrich Hoffmann, Hitler's personal photographer and friend.

  6. bill Pearlman
    June 19, 2007, 10:10 pm

    Not feeling the love Arie

  7. J.C.S Martillo
    June 19, 2007, 11:03 pm

    I am not asserting that the actions of Eastern Europeans and "liberated Soviet nationalities" in mass killing Jews were justified, but many Jewish anti-Zionist anti-Communist rabbinical leaders predicted that the behavior of a large segment of the ethnic Ashkenazi population in the late Czarist Empire and early Soviet Union was creating a hatred of Jews so hot that it would lead to mass murder of Jews. These rabbinical leaders were correct. (I believe Slezkine quotes one or two of them. Wasserman was another.)

    Because of this element of collective revenge in the mass killing of Jews in Eastern Europe during WW2, I do not consider the Holocaust a particularly "pure" example of genocide.

    I also do not consider the Holocaust particularly unique when viewed in the context of the wave of genocide that starts in the Czarist Empire in the 1820s (against the Chechens) and that spreads westward (through the Balkans).

    Relatively speaking far more Eastern European Ashkenazim (relatively and probably absolutely) seem to have been directly involved in mass murder, ethnic cleansing and genocide during the Russian Revolution and during the first 20 years of the Soviet Union than were Germans directly involved in mass murder, ethnic cleansing and genocide during the Nazi period.

    Occasionally Harvard research Sarah Roy has asked rhetorically as the child of Holocaust survivors, "How can Israeli Jews commit such atrocities against Palestinians?" And I answer her as someone who lost even more relatives to the German Nazis than she, "Study the history of the Russian Revolution and early Soviet Union."

    [I have occasionally given a lecture on "The Myth of Jewish Powerlessness in Eastern Europe and Czarist Russia during the Late 19th and Early 20th Century."]

    As for heinousness of the Holocaust relative to the experiences of Palestinians, it is a psychological issue. When a soldier is blown up in battle, it is not usually considered heinous, but if a child is dropped from a bridge onto a highway where it is smashed by high-speed traffic, such a murder is heinous.

    A segment of the Eastern European ethnic Ashkenazim chose to be players in Eastern European politics, and without them the Communists would never have stolen the Russian Revolution. Without the Soviet Union, no Hitler. Without Hitler, no Holocaust. There seems to be some sort of karmic principle operating in this case.

    But in the case of Palestinians what did they do but live in Palestine? Unlike ethnic Ashkenazim they are descended from Greco-Roman Palestinian populations. Their ancestors wrote the Hebrew Bible, the Mishna, the Baraita, and the Jerusalem Talmud, which were to a large extent sliced and diced by Zionists to justify the genocide of the modern Palestinian populations.

    The history of Palestinians seems almost anti-karmic, and I am completely creeped out that Zionist scholars like S.D. Goitein, who could out-Mengele Mengele, were or are praised and honored within the Jewish community and beyond.

    BTW, I treat the Nakba as only part of the crime committed against Palestinians. I normally refer to the Holoexaleipsis, which is the Great Erasure, which includes the past and ongoing demonization of Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims along with the physical erasing of Palestinians from their native land — a process that continues to this day.

    The Holoexaleipsis also refers to the erasing and rewriting of both the history of Palestine and of Jews to conform to Zionist propaganda.

    The Holoexaleipsis began in the 19th century and continues in the 21st. It is a crime that spans three centuries.

  8. Arie Brand
    June 20, 2007, 12:40 am

    The passage I took and take exception to in your original post was this:

    “German Nazi mass murders of Jews do not start until after Operation Barbarossa, and after reading a tremendous amount a primary German and Soviet documentation, I believe the Nazis killed Jews because they equated them (for the most part correctly) with the Soviet elite class with whom Germany was in a death struggle.”

    I know of no reputable scholar of the holocaust who would support that view. Is that why you refer to all that primary documentation you have allegedly studied? The idea that German anti-Semitism in general and the Nazi-variety of it in particular became murderous only after the Nazis had correctly identified their enemies is outrageous.

    This is not just a matter of factual correctness or incorrectness. You came very close to the border where ‘explanation’ becomes justification. Because even if Nazi ideas about the nature of the Soviet political class had been correct and even if they did regard them as another type of combatants, how could that possibly explain their extermination of Jews in Russia, and all over Europe, who had absolutely nothing to do with this class? The fact that you ignored this question makes one suspect that you regard the holocaust in toto as one of the ‘harsh necessities of war’. And that was the Nazi justification.

    I support Phil’s decision to let you have your say but I would rather not enter into any further discussion with you.

  9. anonymous
    June 20, 2007, 10:01 am

    "I have quoted him under an entry nobody seems to look at any more so here he is again:"

    The market speaks!

  10. Ancestor
    June 20, 2007, 10:23 am

    Joachim – Please share with us what is your ancestral background. Are you a Jew? Descended from Jews? Arab? Russian? Latino? Muslim? Christian?

    Do tell. It is relevant.

  11. Klaus Bloemker
    June 20, 2007, 10:51 am

    On the safe side of the Holocaust
    _________________________________

    If I may make a little comment:

    A couple of weeks ago, a friend complained that "Hitler had killed all the German Jews." When I said: "That's not true", he raised his eyebrows and replied: "You know, there is a denial that is forbidden by law in Germany." When I told him that the majority of German Jews were abel to emigrate before the 'final solution', he said: "Oh, is this so?" But still, I think he considered me a politically dangerous fellow.

    A nice woman told me not so long ago: 'millions of German Jews were gased.' She also raised her eyebrows when I told her that it were mainly Polish Jews. (Were I trivialising it?)

    The effect of the Holocaust denial law is that people who don't know much about it, tend to overstate it to be polically and morally on the safe side.

  12. J.C.S Martillo
    June 20, 2007, 10:53 am

    As right-wing psycho Zionist extremists spew all sorts of nonsense about Islamofascism, progressive anti-Zionist anti-racists have an obligation to revisit the accusation of Judeobolshevism, and we find that there was an extremely large segment of the E. European ethnic Ashkenazi population that was heavily involved in communism and communist crimes.

    The Nazi mass murders of Jews do not start until after Operation Barbarossa. Before then the German Nazis were for the most part content with driving Jews out of German controlled territories. Post Soviet invasion, German war propaganda often uses terminology like jüdisch-bolschewistische Terrorbanden.

    Hilberg discusses the issue in his Holocaust history as does the latest generation of Sovietologists, of whom Slezkine is only one example.

    I can understand why racist Ashkenazim and Zionist extremists wish to ban the topic. Racist Ashkenazim certainly do not want the same sort of analysis applied to them that they apply to Germans, Russians, Arabs, Muslims or non-Jews in general.

    In addition, the subject of Jews and Bolshevism interferes with the Zionist Holocaust narrative in which the Holocaust is an extraordinary crime, Jews are extraordinary victims, for whom extraordinary relief is required, to wit the theft of Palestine from the native population.

    The genocidalism of Soviet Ashkenazim then and the genocidalism of Zionist Ashkenazim from the late 40s through the present day looks tremendously similar.

    In analysing the issue, we have to focus specifically on E. European ethnic Ashkenazim. Except for German Jews undergoing a process of Ashkenazization, Jews of other ethnic groups generally were not nearly so involved with communism or communist crimes.

    The German Nazis in fact show awareness of such ethnic differences. In Poland and Lithuania, the German Nazis ignored Jewish Tatars, who had troubled relations with ethnic Ashkenazim, or even recruited Tatar Jews into the SS. Thus in Poland we even run across anomalous incidents of Tatar Jewish SS recruits that take part in actions to hunt down Tatar Muslim Polish patriots fighting in the anti-Nazi resistance. Yad Vashem does not document such occurences.

    In the Crimea, where Soviet Ashkenazim managed to enmesh large numbers of Tatar Jews in the service of Soviet communism, we find that the local non-Jewish population was killing the Tatar Jewish population even before the German Nazis arrived and even though there was little evidence of a modern sort of anti-Semitism in the region before the Russian Revolution.

  13. Bill Pearlman
    June 20, 2007, 11:09 am

    Joechim: How is life up there among the extra terrestrials. What do you do all day in that other galaxy.

  14. Klaus Bloemker
    June 20, 2007, 12:31 pm

    Bill's universe
    ___________________

    Bill – you keep throwing the first stone when you yourself are sitting in a glasshouse. It's Judaism that has been living in its own moral universe for 3000 years – a universe that started out not only at Mount Sinai but also with a genocid. Remember the Amalek?

  15. anonymous
    June 20, 2007, 12:43 pm

    "Judeobolshevism" is a racist canard right up there with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

    "Post Soviet invasion, German war propaganda often uses terminology like jüdisch-bolschewistische Terrorbanden."

    Gee, I don't speak German but " jüdisch-bolschewistische" sounds a lot like "Judeobolshevism." Nazi propaganda, you say?

    "The genocidalism of Soviet Ashkenazim" ???

    This is ahistorical, racist, crackpot stuff no matter how you try to burnish it with a veneer of phoney authority citing Hillberg. Lenin and Stalin weren't Jewish. The only thing that stopped a major pogrom against "Soviet Ashkenzim" in 1953 was Staliln's timely death.

  16. Anonymous
    June 20, 2007, 1:33 pm

    I understand your feelings, Bill. Whenever I fight with a theorem I cannot grasp I invariably start thinking it was written by extra terrestrials. Mr. Martillo is doing a Riemann in your unidimensional world. My sympathies, if not my love.

  17. Ancestor
    June 20, 2007, 1:43 pm

    Martillo – Are you a Jew or a Muslim? Seriously. What's your deal and why do you fail to respond to these questions? Is there something about you that we are not supposed to know?

  18. Klaus Bloemker
    June 20, 2007, 2:23 pm

    Judeobolshewism
    _____________________

    Some years ago, there was an exhibition about the German Wehrmacht's(army's)occupation of the Balcans and the killing of Jews there. There was an elderly visitor at the exhibition (around 80) who was interviewed. He said, he had been there and he said (I can't remember the question put to him): "At the time, the Jews and the Bolshewiks were the same thing to us."

    To me, it's perfectly clear: Hitler managed to merge his anti-Semitism with his anti-communism.

  19. J.C.S Martillo
    June 20, 2007, 3:24 pm

    The Pentateuch and Genocide
    ===========================

    Before the 1830s the traditional education of Eastern European ethnic Ashkenazim focused on the Talmud not the Bible, and of the Pentateuch only Leviticus was studied in much detail as a prelude to Talmud studies because of the book's focus on ritual rules.

    Michael Prior wrote an interesting book entitled The Bible and Colonialism which analyzes the misuse of the pentateuchal stories for conquest and apartheid, in the Spanish Empire, in South Africa and in Zionism, but historically the most religious ethnic Ashkenazim were the most opposed to Zionism.

    While many Zionists studied in Eastern European reformed curricula, where the Bible was often studied along German Protestant models, Zionist genocidalism looks more like a part of general intellectual current in Central and Eastern Europe.

    Hellenistic readers of the Bible in Greek and Hebrew understood it very differently than we do. Traditional Jews in the 19th century did not focus on the Pentateuch. And genocidal attitudes were widespread in E. and C. Europe among circles that did not have much contact with the Bible.

    While the study of the Bible in Israeli government schools has been fairly conclusively correlated with genocidal attitudes, I think we have to be careful in associating the origins of Zionist genocidalism with scripture.

  20. Arie Brand
    June 20, 2007, 6:06 pm

    Though I have announced that I don't want to engage in any further discussion with Mr.Martillo and want to stick to that there is one small question that lurks in my mind.

    Googling on his name the first entry is from a Joachim Martillo who had something to do with computers in Israel. The second entry gives the curriculum vitae of a Martillo who is also a computer expert.

    I assume both these entries concern the same Martillo who is speaking to us on this blog.

    That Martillo claims that he went through a 'tremendous amount' of 'primary' German and Soviet documentation.

    Soviet documentation is in Russian of course.

    The Martillo who provides his c.s. specifies his knowledge of languages as follows:

    "German (reading better than speaking), some French, some Polish, Latin, some Spanish."

    Where is Russian?

  21. Arie Brand
    June 20, 2007, 7:30 pm

    P.S. It is of course quite possible that I am mistaken about Mr.Martillo's real identity but he can easily clear that up.

  22. Arie Brand
    June 20, 2007, 8:36 pm

    Klaus,you claim that the majority of German Jews was able to emigrate before the 'final solution'. Well, I don't know whether it was the majority but at any case quite a few seem to have escaped from the 'Reich'pre-war – but unfortunately generally to countries that later were occupied by the Germans ( viz.France,Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands etc.).

    The relevant Wikipedia entry claims that only a quarter of the pre-war Jewish population of Germany survived.

  23. Gene
    June 20, 2007, 8:44 pm

    I don't understand why so many posters are so concerned with Marillo's identity. Shouldn't you be responding to his arguments? Who cares what his nationality/ethnicity is? What possible difference does that make, unless you plan to discredit him if he's one ethnicity and attack if he's another?

  24. J.C.S Martillo
    June 20, 2007, 9:02 pm

    German Jewish Survivorship

    There are several ways to count the size of the population of German Jews during the Hitler period, and there are several ways to count survivorship and mortality.

    One can fairly easily produce figures to show that a majority emigrated and to show that only a quarter survived.

  25. Arie Brand
    June 20, 2007, 10:18 pm

    Gene, I don't know about other enquiries but the reason for mine seems to me obvious.

    If a person regales us on what looks suspiciously like a rehash of Nazi propaganda dressed up in a pseudo-scholarly garb, it is pertinent to know whether his claims to scholarship have any validity.

    If then it turns out that he has no reading knowledge of the language in which the primary documents he claims to have studied is couched we know somewhat more about these claims.

    I note that Mr.Martillo retains a discrete silence about my inquiry.

    What irks me most of all is that with all this stuff he is discrediting the cause that he claims to serve: justice for the Palestinians.

  26. Ancestor
    June 20, 2007, 11:20 pm

    Gene – Why is it that Mr. Martillo will not identify if he is a jew or an arab. On one of his blogs he claims to be ashkenazi, but his reported full name is both latino and arab. Personally, I find it hard to dispute Mr. Martillo without doing some research. He is quick to cite all sorts of sources for his anti-semitic arguments. Without researching them further I am unable to really make a judgment on them. Perhaps Mr. Brand is better equipped to judge their veracity. I would like to know who Mr. Martillo is. Is he a jew by ancesty as he seems to claim or is he a member of a clan that has a beef with jews, or both?

  27. Anonymous
    June 20, 2007, 11:36 pm

    I doubt wikipedia is good at finding jews. Let's see:
    ———————–
    Lewis Libby
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Background
    Libby was born to "a prosperous family" in New Haven, Connecticut;
    ———————–

    "The relevant Wikipedia entry claims that only a quarter of the pre-war Jewish population of Germany survived."

    Maybe you should look for the other three quarter in the "born to a prosperous family" entry.

    Ironies aside, Arie, I think you should refute Mr.Martillo's arguments or ignore his presence.

    That said I would like to say I appreciate your comments. You are a fine "acquisition" of Phil's.

  28. Arie Brand
    June 21, 2007, 12:53 am

    I don't care about Mr.Martillo's ethnic background ('member of the species homo sapiens' seems to me the appropriate response to such an enquiry) but I do care about his claim to scholarship.

    Yes, Anonymous, I won't spend any further word on this.

  29. Tennis bum
    June 21, 2007, 9:09 am

    Yeah, but why doesn't Mr. Martillo just tell us what his background is. You can be sure he points out other's ethnic backgrounds.

  30. J.C.S Martillo
    June 21, 2007, 10:12 am

    The truth of a statement is independent of the ethnicity of the person that expresses it.

    Anyway, link to leaderu.com is a book review that addresses the survivorship rate of German Jews.

    "The Myth of Rescue" itself is a little dated and has some problems, but it is worth reading.

  31. Klaus Bloemker
    June 21, 2007, 10:50 am

    German Jews

    Arie – in the argument with that friend I said that Hitler's priority before the war, to make Germany 'judenfrei', was to force the Jews to emigrate, there was a Central Authority for Jewish Emigration in Berlin. I may be wrong that the majority emigrated/survived and I didn't think of those who emigrated to countries that were later occupied.

  32. Klaus Bloemker
    June 21, 2007, 1:50 pm

    German Jewish emigration
    _________________________

    Here are some official numbers for the German Reich from the Federal German Statistical Office.

    Date of census: 16.6. 1933
    Number of Jews: 500 000

    Date of census: 17.5.1939
    Number of Jews: 222 000

    'Jews' are Jews by religion. The territory the 1939 number refers to is that of 31.12.1937 (so nearly the same as in 1933).

    As a percentage of total German population,
    Jews in 1933: 0.8% ; in 1939: 0.3% .

    So, there were 56% less Jews in 1939 than there were in 1933 in the 'old' pre-Anschluss German Reich. I had these sort of numbers in mind when I claimed that the majority of the German Jews had emigrated.

  33. Klaus Bloemker
    June 21, 2007, 3:16 pm

    For anyone interested in the religious affiliation of Germans in 1939 (in Germany in its pre-Anschluss borders):
    protestant: 61% ; catholic; 33% ; other: 6% .

  34. Arie Brand
    June 21, 2007, 8:55 pm

    About that 'Zentralstelle' for Jewish Emigration: as you know Heydrich was put in charge of that.This man showed throughout his career that his preference was for extermination. Later he chaired the Wannsee-conference.

    All the same there have been some controversial contacts between leading Zionists and this 'Zentralstelle'or its predecessors. Lenni Brenner dealt with these in his Zionism in the Age of the Dictators.

    Very recently the Australian ABC got into trouble with the Australian equivalent of the ADL by interviewing him. They had to organise an interview with Walter Laqueur to appear to be 'balanced'. Both interviews are online, I think.

  35. Alex Chaihorsky
    June 30, 2007, 2:32 pm

    Arie –

    Just a note. I do not really know how Hitler's mind worked, but in Russia, especially rural Russia, on all that vast stretch outside Moscow, St. Petersburg and beyond Urals, the words Jews and Communists were almost completely interchangeable, which slowly ended after the establishment of Stalinist rule. So closely these words were connected that they almost melted in one word "Zhidyikommunisty" – "Zhid" being an equivalent of "Kike" in Russian, only "Kike" was a derogatory intra-Jewish insult that educated, western, Germanic Jews in America called newly arriving "wild" Polish Jews (whose last names ended with "ki") and the Russian word was strictly used by non-Jews toward Jews.

    The mind-boggling crimes against humanity by Communists in Russia is still something that only now starts to be gradually unfolded, despite all what we thought we already knew. Although Soviet Communist Party was not at all a "Jewish party", but it had been certainly unproportionally Jewish if one compares the percentages of population and especially its leadership and most importantly its violent and murdorous CHEKA (it is not easy to translate into English but its something like "Extraordinary, emergency, omnipotentiary Commission"). It would not be a big exaggeration to say that the absolute majority of Jews, excluding elderly, were members of one of the revolutionary parties (Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, Social Revolutionaries).

    The deeds in Lenin-Trotsky and later Stalins' time of this "Commision", (that later was renamed OGPU, GPU, HKVD, NKGB and after Kruschev's anti-Stalin purges – KGB), boggles the mind and in my opinion was something that was never done in human history – elimination of certain parts of population based on the circumstance of their birth – families of non-proletarian and non-farming origin, which lead to erasure of whole Russian clergy, aristocracy, military officers, landowners, intelligentsia, small business owners. Only later, Nazi repeated that by targeting another "birthright" group – Jews (and to the lesser extent others like Rom, mentally ill, and gays (if we accept genetic theory of homosexuality).

    Also, since Ukraine became independent, the details of unbelievable, almost unknown before even in the Russian dissident circles to which I belonged, crimes in terms of barbarity, level or meticulous organization and scale, deliberate campaign of artificial famine that starved to death, whole parts of Ukrainian population, eradicated whole villages – totally around 8 million people. Together with earlier "collectivization" and eradication of Russian independent farmers (kulaks) the number is close to 15 million.

    It was certainly Lenin-Trotsky (earlier in Russia) and later in Ukraine – Stalin's diabolic plan to break the spine of independent farming community, make them turn their property to state-controlled "kolkhozes" (public (or collective) farms) and make them the slaves of Communist regime, but the eyes of tens of millions of artificially starved Ukrainians saw Jewish commissars, Jewish NKVD officers, Jewish enforcers, mostly from shtetls, speaking with heavy accents, who, by Moscow orders were taking EVERYTHING away, killing those who resisted, making bonfires from rebelious villages, blocking the roads and making sure that no food would come from outside. An elderly friend of mine, a Jew who in his younger years was a NKVD soldier in Ukraine and later emigrated to Israel told me that when he first time saw a road block in Israel he immediately saw himself in a similar situation in Ukraine in 1932 during the famine and went into a strange comatose state from which he recovered only next day.

    Later an argument was made that these were not "really Jews" because Communist regime demanded that everyone denounced his religion, but I leave this argument to your won critique. I just know that even in mid-80-ies when I was there last time, in rural Ukraine, a Jewish face made many an olderly woman turn terrifyingly stone-faced (men of that age if they did not die during famine, almost with no exception died during WWII) and walk away. I shuddered even trying to imagine what kind of damnation they were uttering in their minds. The historical irony was that in 1980-ies, 30+ years old me thought of Communists and KGB as my mortal enemies, despite the fact that my grandparents were Party members and my maternal grandfather was high-ranking Red Army officer (albeit veterinarian doctor, which was even more important than ordinary doctors in the age of cavalry).

  36. Michael
    November 6, 2007, 12:04 pm

    This is the type of bullshit that gets at the end of the argument for all of this nonsense about the revolutionary war. it gets trotted down and compared to "worse than the nazis'" and at the right time you slip the word "zhid" (aka "the jeeeewwwww") in the equation. the commisars were "zhid", the NKVD was "zhid", cheka was "zhid". this all so "progressive" talk gets any discussion tail spinning into the type of folks like this Jo Martillo fellar, of whome i really wount waste my time speaking of.

    Making a war against a particular class, and they had the stronger army, but they failed cuz the mostly working class/poor farmer soldiers turned against their imperial captains, how in the HELL is it comparable to the NAzi murder by Race??
    this is quite pale descussion here.

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