Comments on: ‘New Yorker’ Editor: Israel and Lobby Bear Responsibility for Iraq War http://mondoweiss.net/2007/08/remnick-writes.html The War of Ideas in the Middle East Sun, 27 May 2012 21:18:24 +0000 hourly 1 By: David http://mondoweiss.net/2007/08/remnick-writes.html/comment-page-1#comment-70453 David Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/08/29/remnick-writes.html#comment-70453 <p>I don't share Phil's optimism that Mr. Remnick (or his boss the Newhouse brothers) has suddenly seen the light. Given the context, that isolated "and they were right about Iraq" almost certainly refers only to M&W's opposition to the war, not to their explanation of why it occurred.</p> <p>Mistakes:<br /> 1. The U.S. has employed it's Security Council veto on behalf of Israel 42 times, not 34.</p> <p>2. To imply that M&W do not worry about the "disappearance of Israel" is exactly like claiming Ahmadinejad is calling for the wiping out of the Jews.</p> <p>3. Remnick claims M&W overlook "myriad cases of suicide bombings; and other spectaculars." But the first suicide bombing happened only after 25 years of bone-crushing occupation.</p> <p>4. Remnick implies Barak's "generous offer" was indeed generous.</p> <p>5. Remnick tries one more time to sell the line that 9-11 was not primarily motivated by an Arab sense of injustice at what is being done to the Palestinians. Those who denied Americans the right to know the reasons behind their tragedy are the lowest of the low, and Remnick is among them.</p> I don't share Phil's optimism that Mr. Remnick (or his boss the Newhouse brothers) has suddenly seen the light. Given the context, that isolated "and they were right about Iraq" almost certainly refers only to M&W's opposition to the war, not to their explanation of why it occurred.

Mistakes:
1. The U.S. has employed it's Security Council veto on behalf of Israel 42 times, not 34.

2. To imply that M&W do not worry about the "disappearance of Israel" is exactly like claiming Ahmadinejad is calling for the wiping out of the Jews.

3. Remnick claims M&W overlook "myriad cases of suicide bombings; and other spectaculars." But the first suicide bombing happened only after 25 years of bone-crushing occupation.

4. Remnick implies Barak's "generous offer" was indeed generous.

5. Remnick tries one more time to sell the line that 9-11 was not primarily motivated by an Arab sense of injustice at what is being done to the Palestinians. Those who denied Americans the right to know the reasons behind their tragedy are the lowest of the low, and Remnick is among them.

]]> By: DavidM http://mondoweiss.net/2007/08/remnick-writes.html/comment-page-1#comment-70454 DavidM Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/08/29/remnick-writes.html#comment-70454 <p>Phil - It's a complex world, and those who attempt to reduce it to simplicities such as the Jewish Lobby is responsible for our foreign policy problems are doomed to eventually look, well for lack of a better word, simple. Your argument that the American Jewish community is in lock step with one another is somewhat laughable when you actually spend time in this community. Many of the Jews that I know were against the War in Iraq, even while they are supportive of the existence of Israel. That right wing conservative Jews should be any different in their stance on the war than the vast majority of conservative right wing non-Jews seems rather strange and counter to the general laws of politics. It's quite easy for you and your zealous commentors to cherry pick selective information and paint a distorted picture of a more complext reality, but perhaps you and they are in the service of a higher purpose where such actions are justified in your own mind.</p> Phil – It's a complex world, and those who attempt to reduce it to simplicities such as the Jewish Lobby is responsible for our foreign policy problems are doomed to eventually look, well for lack of a better word, simple. Your argument that the American Jewish community is in lock step with one another is somewhat laughable when you actually spend time in this community. Many of the Jews that I know were against the War in Iraq, even while they are supportive of the existence of Israel. That right wing conservative Jews should be any different in their stance on the war than the vast majority of conservative right wing non-Jews seems rather strange and counter to the general laws of politics. It's quite easy for you and your zealous commentors to cherry pick selective information and paint a distorted picture of a more complext reality, but perhaps you and they are in the service of a higher purpose where such actions are justified in your own mind.

]]> By: anon http://mondoweiss.net/2007/08/remnick-writes.html/comment-page-1#comment-70455 anon Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/08/29/remnick-writes.html#comment-70455 <p>"Many of the Jews that I know were against the War in Iraq"</p> <p>... but they just kept quiet about it.<br /> </p> "Many of the Jews that I know were against the War in Iraq"

… but they just kept quiet about it.

]]> By: David http://mondoweiss.net/2007/08/remnick-writes.html/comment-page-1#comment-70456 David Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/08/29/remnick-writes.html#comment-70456 <p>To DavidM, on the subject of "complexity": It is you I think who is trying to over-simplify things. No one has ever claimed that the Israel lobby was the only force behind the Iraq war, but only that it was an essential ingredient without which the war could not have happened.</p> To DavidM, on the subject of "complexity": It is you I think who is trying to over-simplify things. No one has ever claimed that the Israel lobby was the only force behind the Iraq war, but only that it was an essential ingredient without which the war could not have happened.

]]> By: liberal white boy http://mondoweiss.net/2007/08/remnick-writes.html/comment-page-1#comment-70457 liberal white boy Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/08/29/remnick-writes.html#comment-70457 <p>I have bad news. A Harvard professor has been crushed in a freak accident. http://homo-sapien-underground.blogspot.com/2007/02/harvard-professor-crushed-in-freak.html</p> I have bad news. A Harvard professor has been crushed in a freak accident. link to homo-sapien-underground.blogspot.com

]]> By: KXB http://mondoweiss.net/2007/08/remnick-writes.html/comment-page-1#comment-70458 KXB Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/08/29/remnick-writes.html#comment-70458 <p>It is true that a greater percentage of American Jews were opposed to the Iraq war back in 2003 than the general American populations. But, the actions of the lobbying groups such as AIPAC that claim to represent them were (and still are) far more supportive of the Iraq invasion and further American adventurism in the region. </p> <p>Are most of America's gun-owners as opposed to reasonable gun laws, such as limiting gun purchases to 1 or 2 a month? Probably not - but the NRA is opposed to it. Are most teachers opposed to the idea of merit pay or longer school years? The NEA won't allow a discussion. </p> <p>That lobbyists run Washington is part and parcel of every candidate's stump speech. So why should the lobbying done on behalf of one tiny nation, with which we trade less with than Mexico, has never sent troops to fight alongside Americans, and thumbs its nose at successive American presidents urging them to stop building settlements be off-limits for discussion?</p> It is true that a greater percentage of American Jews were opposed to the Iraq war back in 2003 than the general American populations. But, the actions of the lobbying groups such as AIPAC that claim to represent them were (and still are) far more supportive of the Iraq invasion and further American adventurism in the region.

Are most of America's gun-owners as opposed to reasonable gun laws, such as limiting gun purchases to 1 or 2 a month? Probably not – but the NRA is opposed to it. Are most teachers opposed to the idea of merit pay or longer school years? The NEA won't allow a discussion.

That lobbyists run Washington is part and parcel of every candidate's stump speech. So why should the lobbying done on behalf of one tiny nation, with which we trade less with than Mexico, has never sent troops to fight alongside Americans, and thumbs its nose at successive American presidents urging them to stop building settlements be off-limits for discussion?

]]> By: Arie Brand http://mondoweiss.net/2007/08/remnick-writes.html/comment-page-1#comment-70459 Arie Brand Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/08/29/remnick-writes.html#comment-70459 <p>David wrote:</p> <p>"No one has ever claimed that the Israel lobby was the only force behind the Iraq war, but only that it was an essential ingredient without which the war could not have happened."</p> <p>I would like to juxtapose this statement with one Tony Judt made in his NYT Op-Ed on Mearsheimer and Walt:</p> <p>"Prominent Israeli leaders and their American supporters pressed very hard for the invasion of Iraq; but the United<br /> States would probably be in Iraq today even if there had been no Israel lobby." </p> David wrote:

"No one has ever claimed that the Israel lobby was the only force behind the Iraq war, but only that it was an essential ingredient without which the war could not have happened."

I would like to juxtapose this statement with one Tony Judt made in his NYT Op-Ed on Mearsheimer and Walt:

"Prominent Israeli leaders and their American supporters pressed very hard for the invasion of Iraq; but the United
States would probably be in Iraq today even if there had been no Israel lobby."

]]> By: David http://mondoweiss.net/2007/08/remnick-writes.html/comment-page-1#comment-70460 David Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/08/29/remnick-writes.html#comment-70460 <p>So at least we're all agreed that the Israel lobby WAS pushing for a war? And we can proceed to discuss it's effectiveness, and motives?</p> So at least we're all agreed that the Israel lobby WAS pushing for a war? And we can proceed to discuss it's effectiveness, and motives?

]]> By: Joachim Martillo http://mondoweiss.net/2007/08/remnick-writes.html/comment-page-1#comment-70461 Joachim Martillo Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/08/29/remnick-writes.html#comment-70461 <p>It might depend how one defines the Israel Lobby. I include Hollywood which has demonized Arabs and Muslims almost continuously since the 1950s. Melani McAlister argues in Epic Encounters that popular culture determines perception of interests which then determine foreign policy.</p> <p>Back in the 80s some of work that I did in modeling film investment would suggest that producing 16 Hollywood-style Palestinian-sympathetic or Palestinian-POV films for the American audience in the proper mix of genres would create conditions for an American attack to abolish the Zionist state and probably be profitable. </p> <p>I am using gross ticket receipts as an indicator of changing opinion and basing my hypothesis on some of the studies of the effects of Schindler's List and the TV series Holocaust, in which Meryl Streep starred.</p> <p>It is not the best copy of the lecture and the videoclips do not work, but you can find some of my preliminery study of Hollywood and Palestinians in http://www.vtjp.org/articles/Historiography_of_Pre-State_Zionism.htm in the section entitled "The Consequences of Zionist Historiography."<br /> </p> It might depend how one defines the Israel Lobby. I include Hollywood which has demonized Arabs and Muslims almost continuously since the 1950s. Melani McAlister argues in Epic Encounters that popular culture determines perception of interests which then determine foreign policy.

Back in the 80s some of work that I did in modeling film investment would suggest that producing 16 Hollywood-style Palestinian-sympathetic or Palestinian-POV films for the American audience in the proper mix of genres would create conditions for an American attack to abolish the Zionist state and probably be profitable.

I am using gross ticket receipts as an indicator of changing opinion and basing my hypothesis on some of the studies of the effects of Schindler's List and the TV series Holocaust, in which Meryl Streep starred.

It is not the best copy of the lecture and the videoclips do not work, but you can find some of my preliminery study of Hollywood and Palestinians in link to vtjp.org
in the section entitled "The Consequences of Zionist Historiography."

]]> By: David http://mondoweiss.net/2007/08/remnick-writes.html/comment-page-1#comment-70462 David Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/08/29/remnick-writes.html#comment-70462 <p>BTW, KXB, the polls just don't support your claim that "a greater percentage of American Jews were opposed to the Iraq war back in 2003 than the general American population." In fact, just the opposite--<br /> http://www.ajc.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=838459&ct=1051619<br /> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/07/opinion/polls/main535547.shtml<br /> But anyone who had been reading a newspaper or watching a talking head back then already knows that. Jewish voices in opposition to the war were like hen's teeth. We've got Paul Krugman, Sen. Levin, Rabbi Lerner and who else? This at a time, remember, when the general population was highly skeptical of the idea -- hence the "mushroom cloud" campaign.</p> <p>On the other hand, there WAS one nation where the general population needed no persuasion--<br /> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=269674&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=269674</p> BTW, KXB, the polls just don't support your claim that "a greater percentage of American Jews were opposed to the Iraq war back in 2003 than the general American population." In fact, just the opposite–
link to ajc.org
/>
link to cbsnews.com
/>
But anyone who had been reading a newspaper or watching a talking head back then already knows that. Jewish voices in opposition to the war were like hen's teeth. We've got Paul Krugman, Sen. Levin, Rabbi Lerner and who else? This at a time, remember, when the general population was highly skeptical of the idea — hence the "mushroom cloud" campaign.

On the other hand, there WAS one nation where the general population needed no persuasion–
link to haaretz.com

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