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	<title>Comments on: More Important Than Tutu. More Important Than Carter. M.J. Rosenberg</title>
	<atom:link href="http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/read-desmond-tu.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/read-desmond-tu.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:18:48 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: ej</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/read-desmond-tu.html/comment-page-1#comment-68283</link>
		<dc:creator>ej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/03/read-desmond-tu.html#comment-68283</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Let&#039;s get one thing straight about &#039;missiles&#039; hitting Siderot.&lt;br /&gt;
If all things were quiet at Siderot would it make any difference to Israeli treatment of Gaza?&lt;br /&gt;
Not a skerrick. The genocide would continue. There&#039;s always an excuse.&lt;br /&gt;
So where is the real courage amongst spokespersons for American Jewry?&lt;br /&gt;
Israel is a criminal state, period.&lt;br /&gt;
WHy isn&#039;t American Jewy en masse out in the streets, in the corridors of power, saying &#039;not in my name&#039;? &lt;br /&gt;
Tribalism still rules at home. &lt;br /&gt;
Debate, debate, angst, hand-wringing. &lt;br /&gt;
Every day more Palestinians assassinated, thousands (including children) rotting in incarceration for no crime other than not being Jewish, livelihoods appropriated.&lt;br /&gt;
Barbarism.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#39;s get one thing straight about &#39;missiles&#39; hitting Siderot.<br />
If all things were quiet at Siderot would it make any difference to Israeli treatment of Gaza?<br />
Not a skerrick. The genocide would continue. There&#39;s always an excuse.<br />
So where is the real courage amongst spokespersons for American Jewry?<br />
Israel is a criminal state, period.<br />
WHy isn&#39;t American Jewy en masse out in the streets, in the corridors of power, saying &#39;not in my name&#39;? <br />
Tribalism still rules at home. <br />
Debate, debate, angst, hand-wringing. <br />
Every day more Palestinians assassinated, thousands (including children) rotting in incarceration for no crime other than not being Jewish, livelihoods appropriated.<br />
Barbarism.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Condell</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/read-desmond-tu.html/comment-page-1#comment-68284</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Condell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/03/read-desmond-tu.html#comment-68284</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&#039;So where is the real courage amongst spokespersons for American Jewry?&#039;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Philip has just mentioned one - MJ Rosenberg, who I agree is one of the more important elements in the sea-change that is beginning to happen. OK, so he&#039;s not an official spokesperson, but any Jew who gets up to clear his or her throat publicly in support of Palestine and against Israeli crimes is a spokesperson. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The bona fides of the official spokespeople can in any case be questioned; it is clear that most of the official organisations are about the interests of a small-ish subset of Jews in the US rather than a comprehensive representation.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And Rosenberg is not the Lone Ranger either; for me Philip&#039;s work, along with that of Tony Judt, Tony Karon, Norman Finkelstein etc is equally crucial at this time. You can have heavyweights like your Carters and Tutus and Walts and Mearsheimers scraping away at the coalface, but they could not break thru without the aid of courageous Jews prepared to wear a bit of flak for the greater good.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#39;So where is the real courage amongst spokespersons for American Jewry?&#39;</p>
<p>Philip has just mentioned one &#8211; MJ Rosenberg, who I agree is one of the more important elements in the sea-change that is beginning to happen. OK, so he&#39;s not an official spokesperson, but any Jew who gets up to clear his or her throat publicly in support of Palestine and against Israeli crimes is a spokesperson. </p>
<p>The bona fides of the official spokespeople can in any case be questioned; it is clear that most of the official organisations are about the interests of a small-ish subset of Jews in the US rather than a comprehensive representation.</p>
<p>And Rosenberg is not the Lone Ranger either; for me Philip&#39;s work, along with that of Tony Judt, Tony Karon, Norman Finkelstein etc is equally crucial at this time. You can have heavyweights like your Carters and Tutus and Walts and Mearsheimers scraping away at the coalface, but they could not break thru without the aid of courageous Jews prepared to wear a bit of flak for the greater good.</p>
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		<title>By: samuel burke</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/read-desmond-tu.html/comment-page-1#comment-68285</link>
		<dc:creator>samuel burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/03/read-desmond-tu.html#comment-68285</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;this is a very valid question methinks.&lt;br /&gt;
WHy isn&#039;t American Jewy en masse out in the streets, in the corridors of power, saying &#039;not in my name&#039;? &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;it brings to my mind  the tom lantos remark to the europeans..when he told them that the europeans werent that outraged over the nazis during the holocaust...in response to their outrage over guantanamo cuba.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;That Lantos, who is very representative of judaics who support israel and zionism unconditionally, would dare to accuse at the top of his voice the europeans in general for remaining silent while the jews of europe were being targeted, while very conveniently remaining silent and thus complicit to the plight of palestinians, who have suffered and continnue suffering the abuses of racial genocide, ethnic cleansing, and political oppression is cynical and immoral. &lt;br /&gt;
So if you take judaics as a whole, they, en masse believe that europe and christianity in general, were complicit through their silence for holocaust crimes but conveniently exclude themselves from accountability for the zionists crimes against palestinians from the late thirties until today, and all because israels ought to be unconditionally excused because of their history.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&#039;So where is the real courage amongst spokespersons for American Jewry?&#039;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;i personally applaud and give kudos to the many jewish bloggers who bravely stand up to the injustices commited by zionism, and recognize the injustices commited against palestinians.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But the overall community of judaics remain oblivious to israels crimes, or zionisms history...they believe the myth, and will defend it with the accusatory  anti semitic label for anyone who says  israel is an apartheid oppressive state, or for anyone who says israel is the reason why america is hated so ferociously by the other nations of the middle east.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;the myth of israel is like a spell from one of those fairy tales many of us watched as kids.&lt;br /&gt;
can the spell be broken?&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this is a very valid question methinks.<br />
WHy isn&#39;t American Jewy en masse out in the streets, in the corridors of power, saying &#39;not in my name&#39;? </p>
<p>it brings to my mind  the tom lantos remark to the europeans..when he told them that the europeans werent that outraged over the nazis during the holocaust&#8230;in response to their outrage over guantanamo cuba.</p>
<p>That Lantos, who is very representative of judaics who support israel and zionism unconditionally, would dare to accuse at the top of his voice the europeans in general for remaining silent while the jews of europe were being targeted, while very conveniently remaining silent and thus complicit to the plight of palestinians, who have suffered and continnue suffering the abuses of racial genocide, ethnic cleansing, and political oppression is cynical and immoral. <br />
So if you take judaics as a whole, they, en masse believe that europe and christianity in general, were complicit through their silence for holocaust crimes but conveniently exclude themselves from accountability for the zionists crimes against palestinians from the late thirties until today, and all because israels ought to be unconditionally excused because of their history.</p>
<p>&#39;So where is the real courage amongst spokespersons for American Jewry?&#39;</p>
<p>i personally applaud and give kudos to the many jewish bloggers who bravely stand up to the injustices commited by zionism, and recognize the injustices commited against palestinians.</p>
<p>But the overall community of judaics remain oblivious to israels crimes, or zionisms history&#8230;they believe the myth, and will defend it with the accusatory  anti semitic label for anyone who says  israel is an apartheid oppressive state, or for anyone who says israel is the reason why america is hated so ferociously by the other nations of the middle east.</p>
<p>the myth of israel is like a spell from one of those fairy tales many of us watched as kids.<br />
can the spell be broken?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/read-desmond-tu.html/comment-page-1#comment-68286</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/03/read-desmond-tu.html#comment-68286</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;WHy isn&#039;t American Jewy en masse out in the streets, in the corridors of power, saying &#039;not in my name&#039;?&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For me, the times when I went on the street to support Palestinian rights, I was accompanied by chants or &quot;Zionism is racism&quot;, which I DON&#039;T believe, and don&#039;t want to be associated with directly or indirectly. &lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;WHy isn&#39;t American Jewy en masse out in the streets, in the corridors of power, saying &#39;not in my name&#39;?&quot;</p>
<p>For me, the times when I went on the street to support Palestinian rights, I was accompanied by chants or &quot;Zionism is racism&quot;, which I DON&#39;T believe, and don&#39;t want to be associated with directly or indirectly. </p>
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		<title>By: Jesse</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/read-desmond-tu.html/comment-page-1#comment-68287</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/03/read-desmond-tu.html#comment-68287</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Doesn&#039;t anyone give any credit to those bloodthirsty Jews for killing all of those Arabs? &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Better dead than living in our neighborhoods.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Methinks that if we start killing the Jews again, they may fight back this time. &lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doesn&#39;t anyone give any credit to those bloodthirsty Jews for killing all of those Arabs? </p>
<p>Better dead than living in our neighborhoods.</p>
<p>Methinks that if we start killing the Jews again, they may fight back this time. </p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/read-desmond-tu.html/comment-page-1#comment-68288</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/03/read-desmond-tu.html#comment-68288</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;Tribalism still rules at home&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This condition may also be observed where Schumer and Feinstein accept an Attorney General nominee who refuses to condemn waterboarding.  The excuses they offer up for doing so are exceedingly lame.  (Schumer)&quot;However, Judge Mukasey, whose integrity and independence is respected even by those who oppose him, is far better than anyone could expect from this administration.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Does anyone really doubt that Schumer&#039;s tolerance for Mukasey is completely incumbent upon Mukasey&#039;s Jewishness?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If I buy a jar of pickles at the store, the contents are required to be labeled.  Maybe it&#039;s time the American public gets the same with regard to political candidates and nominees so that the public might discern the true nature of their leadership?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;Tribalism still rules at home&quot;</p>
<p>This condition may also be observed where Schumer and Feinstein accept an Attorney General nominee who refuses to condemn waterboarding.  The excuses they offer up for doing so are exceedingly lame.  (Schumer)&quot;However, Judge Mukasey, whose integrity and independence is respected even by those who oppose him, is far better than anyone could expect from this administration.&quot;</p>
<p>Does anyone really doubt that Schumer&#39;s tolerance for Mukasey is completely incumbent upon Mukasey&#39;s Jewishness?</p>
<p>If I buy a jar of pickles at the store, the contents are required to be labeled.  Maybe it&#39;s time the American public gets the same with regard to political candidates and nominees so that the public might discern the true nature of their leadership?</p>
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		<title>By: Sidney O. Smith III</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/read-desmond-tu.html/comment-page-1#comment-68289</link>
		<dc:creator>Sidney O. Smith III</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/03/read-desmond-tu.html#comment-68289</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The book, Wrestling with Zion, certainly highlighted the moral dilemma that post 1967 Zionism has created for those who identify themselves as Progressive American Jews.   I write “moral dilemma” but “an acute cognitive dissonance” may be more apt.  Regardless, many of the views presented in the book warrant respect, although I couldn’t help but roll my eyes a few times when reading endlessly about so many committees for the justice of this and that, none of which work.   We are all aware of &quot;the committee for the justice&quot; game and no one is immune.  Simply put: join a Marxist committee while in college, then go to Wall Street or law school after graduating.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It seems to me, at least at this point, the best hope for Zionism was the Martin Buber approach perhaps defended by some of the insights of Martin Van Creveld.   But this view apparently is now (nuclear) dust in the wind.  The reason Buber &amp; Van Creveld now are anachronisms could be due, in part, to a shift from secular Zionism to religious Zionism  -- a transformation that has accelerated increasingly since 67 and, in fact, seems to have reached near critical mass.   &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Gorenberg is just fantastic in describing this transformation as are the Hasidic rabbis of Satmar, at least in my opinion.    I find it both revealing and ironic that only in 2007 Akiva Eldar echoed in Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/895161.html) the view expressed by Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld who decades ago stated:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;The Jews do not want, in any way, to take that which isn&#039;t theirs. And they certainly do not want to contest the rights of the other inhabitants to the places held by them which they regard with honor and consider holy. And in particular there is no foundation to the rumor that the Jews want to acquire the Temple Mount.”&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/sonnenfeld.cfm&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Increasingly, I am becoming convinced that the Hasidic dynasties of Satmar and the like have a much deeper understanding of the dynamic of anti-Semitism and Zionism.  And I sometimes wonder if progressive American Jews -- like the rest of us -- spent too much time studying Freud instead of the works of Satmar Grande Rebbe Joel Teitelbaum.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;From what I can tell, both George Washington and Rabbi Teitelbaum believed that Torah spirituality should remain part of the American experience from beginning to end.  And both believed that neither anti-Semitism nor ethnic nationalism should become part of American civic life.   &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Oh, I know…mentioning George Washington is probably considered gauche by those members of a committee for the justice of this and that.  But to be provocative:  I hope the militant ethnic nationalism of AIPAC does not destroy the American dream or, if you prefer, does not break a civic covenant with our founding fathers.  Chaos will ensue, as will anti-Semitism.   I already see signs of such, including among the secular progressive left.   &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But who knows the answers…I certainly don’t.  Just searching for new organizing principles.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The book, Wrestling with Zion, certainly highlighted the moral dilemma that post 1967 Zionism has created for those who identify themselves as Progressive American Jews.   I write “moral dilemma” but “an acute cognitive dissonance” may be more apt.  Regardless, many of the views presented in the book warrant respect, although I couldn’t help but roll my eyes a few times when reading endlessly about so many committees for the justice of this and that, none of which work.   We are all aware of &quot;the committee for the justice&quot; game and no one is immune.  Simply put: join a Marxist committee while in college, then go to Wall Street or law school after graduating.</p>
<p>It seems to me, at least at this point, the best hope for Zionism was the Martin Buber approach perhaps defended by some of the insights of Martin Van Creveld.   But this view apparently is now (nuclear) dust in the wind.  The reason Buber &amp; Van Creveld now are anachronisms could be due, in part, to a shift from secular Zionism to religious Zionism  &#8212; a transformation that has accelerated increasingly since 67 and, in fact, seems to have reached near critical mass.   </p>
<p>Gorenberg is just fantastic in describing this transformation as are the Hasidic rabbis of Satmar, at least in my opinion.    I find it both revealing and ironic that only in 2007 Akiva Eldar echoed in Haaretz (<a href="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/895161.html)">link to haaretz.com</a><br /> the view expressed by Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld who decades ago stated:</p>
<p>&quot;The Jews do not want, in any way, to take that which isn&#39;t theirs. And they certainly do not want to contest the rights of the other inhabitants to the places held by them which they regard with honor and consider holy. And in particular there is no foundation to the rumor that the Jews want to acquire the Temple Mount.”<br />
<a href="http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/sonnenfeld.cfm</p>
<p>&#8220;>link to jewsagainstzionism.com</a></p>
<p>Increasingly, I am becoming convinced that the Hasidic dynasties of Satmar and the like have a much deeper understanding of the dynamic of anti-Semitism and Zionism.  And I sometimes wonder if progressive American Jews &#8212; like the rest of us &#8212; spent too much time studying Freud instead of the works of Satmar Grande Rebbe Joel Teitelbaum.  </p>
<p>From what I can tell, both George Washington and Rabbi Teitelbaum believed that Torah spirituality should remain part of the American experience from beginning to end.  And both believed that neither anti-Semitism nor ethnic nationalism should become part of American civic life.   </p>
<p>Oh, I know…mentioning George Washington is probably considered gauche by those members of a committee for the justice of this and that.  But to be provocative:  I hope the militant ethnic nationalism of AIPAC does not destroy the American dream or, if you prefer, does not break a civic covenant with our founding fathers.  Chaos will ensue, as will anti-Semitism.   I already see signs of such, including among the secular progressive left.   </p>
<p>But who knows the answers…I certainly don’t.  Just searching for new organizing principles.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles  Keating</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/read-desmond-tu.html/comment-page-1#comment-68290</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles  Keating</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/03/read-desmond-tu.html#comment-68290</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Here&#039;s a big jar of pickles hinting at the nature of American leaders: The judge recently ruled Candy Rice and other former and present key leaders can be subpoened by the defense in the AIPAC spy case to show AIPAC&#039;s back channel is the normal way we conduct middle east policy. Should be interesting to read the Nutrition Facts on the jar&#039;s label commencing next January. Food for thought, at least if Bush doesn&#039;t blank the label.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#39;s a big jar of pickles hinting at the nature of American leaders: The judge recently ruled Candy Rice and other former and present key leaders can be subpoened by the defense in the AIPAC spy case to show AIPAC&#39;s back channel is the normal way we conduct middle east policy. Should be interesting to read the Nutrition Facts on the jar&#39;s label commencing next January. Food for thought, at least if Bush doesn&#39;t blank the label.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/read-desmond-tu.html/comment-page-1#comment-68291</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/03/read-desmond-tu.html#comment-68291</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;=============&lt;br /&gt;
Have we finished the WM disgrace?&lt;br /&gt;
=======================&lt;br /&gt;
It was a WWI style frontal propaganda, a cooked up attack on a good name of a nation.&lt;br /&gt;
WM had the audacity to smear all Jews in a most indecent manner.&lt;br /&gt;
=========================&lt;br /&gt;
The current expansion wants to save the Palestinian people.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Tutu and Carter have to explain us which Jihadi Palestinians are their favorites, and the enemies of peace in the Palestinian camps: The racist Grand Mufti, the corrupt Arafat, the secretive Abu Nidal, Meshaal, or the Hamasi Haniyeh?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;When all these heroes are buried, I hope the decent and proud ordinary Palestinians, my friends will overcome their messy traditions, and renovate the Palestinian house, without scapegoating Israel .&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>=============<br />
Have we finished the WM disgrace?<br />
=======================<br />
It was a WWI style frontal propaganda, a cooked up attack on a good name of a nation.<br />
WM had the audacity to smear all Jews in a most indecent manner.<br />
=========================<br />
The current expansion wants to save the Palestinian people.</p>
<p>Tutu and Carter have to explain us which Jihadi Palestinians are their favorites, and the enemies of peace in the Palestinian camps: The racist Grand Mufti, the corrupt Arafat, the secretive Abu Nidal, Meshaal, or the Hamasi Haniyeh?</p>
<p>When all these heroes are buried, I hope the decent and proud ordinary Palestinians, my friends will overcome their messy traditions, and renovate the Palestinian house, without scapegoating Israel .</p>
<p></p>
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		<title>By: Arie Brand</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/read-desmond-tu.html/comment-page-1#comment-68292</link>
		<dc:creator>Arie Brand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/03/read-desmond-tu.html#comment-68292</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt; &quot;and renovate the Palestinian house...&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;What house, Steve? You mean the leaky shed the Palestinian has been forced into, while the main house on the property is now occupied by the Conqueror who has also laid hold of the garden ?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;When will you stop talking nonsense?&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> &quot;and renovate the Palestinian house&#8230;&quot;</p>
<p>What house, Steve? You mean the leaky shed the Palestinian has been forced into, while the main house on the property is now occupied by the Conqueror who has also laid hold of the garden ?</p>
<p>When will you stop talking nonsense?</p>
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