Sometimes we don’t see how much the world has changed. The left has changed the U.S. discourse in the last few months. It’s happened before our eyes. Yes, Walt and Mearsheimer are marginalized, but last night in a packed church in New York, Norman Finkelstein called on the Jewish community in the U.S. to separate itself from Israel, and I think that is slowly happening. The soul-searching I’ve called for within the Jewish community re the neocons is taking place in a subterranean way. Now everyone knows that they are Israel-centric, and it’s become kosher for journalists to say or hint as much. In a month, Doubleday will publish They Knew They Were Right, a book on the neocons by a fairly sympathetic writer, Jacob Heilbrunn, whose galley is promoted with the following boldfaced language on the back cover:
The neocons have become the most reviled and controversial intellectual movement in American history. Critics on both the left and right describe them as a tight-knit cabal that has ensnared the Bush administration in an unwinnable foreign war primarily on Israel’s behalf.
Huh. Cabal. Israel. Unimaginable a year or two ago. Just six years ago the neocons and other Israel-supporters were
successful in the claim that it was all one war, our war wasn’t with Al
Qaeda, it was with Syria and Hamas and Hezbollah. Now Iraq has shown what a grand
delusion that was, and Condi Rice is said to be reminded of the deep south of the segregation years when she visits the West Bank. While a front-page analysis in yesterday’s Times observed, re Annapolis:
Mr. Bush, for now, seems to have accepted the argument that the
Palestinian cause is at the root of Islamic mistrust of the United
States….
Got it! We have helped to do push him there. Give yourself a pat on the back.
Here, by the way, is the report I have on Finkelstein’s appearance, from Hannah Rappleye of the New School:
Finkelstein ended by saying, it's "time for american jews to kiss israel goodbye" orsomething like that. he began his speech with a brief history ofamerican zionism and then went off about how the way to solve theproblem is extremely simple: Israel's occupation of the territories isillegal (cites U.N, Geneva Conventions, International Court ofJustice, etc) and peace will not come until that occupation is over.Etc. The question and answer part was interesting. Aftercomparing the numbers (civilian deaths), he said, "Hamas was aterrorist organization, but the IDF is about 4.5 times more terroristthan Hamas." Quoting roughly: When asked to discusshis tenure issue at DePaul he started singing gospel songs like, "WereYou There When They Crucified My Lord?" and evaded the question. Oneof the questions I asked was about discussing Isarel on campus, butthat got lumped together into the tenure issue by the moderator so Igot no answer, just gospel, unfortunately.
I agree that there is a growing movement within the jewish commmunity to be more vocal of Israeli policies that are wrongheaded. It's not that these arguments having been occuring, but they are much more intense these days.
I'm always amused when my religious Christian friends talk about Israel with me and are shocked that I think the US should cut off funds to Israel until they give up the settlements. They feel much stronger about a unified Jerusalem than I do. I would like to see it as an international city.
This is an article in today's Philly Daily News that touches upon Phil's post. The article is about a female American Jewish physician who treats people in Israel and the occupied territories.
link to philly.com
But Finkelstein was also at USC in Los Angeles recently and responded to a question (about the Mearsheimer/Walt book) by saying that the pro-Israel lobby was not behind the push to war with Iran and took the Chomsky line when he inaccurately mentioned that its power/influence was exaggerated. How disingenous was that.. Lost respect for him that night..
Re: AIPAC is Pushing US to War with Iran for Israel:
http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2007/10/re-aipac-is-pushing-us-to-war-with-iran.html
Talking about Neoconservatism:
http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2007/11/talking-about-neoconservatism.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH0o_07BBk0
Why tackle poverty, pollution and disease at home and abroad when we can spend $3bn a year – one-sixth of our direct aid budget – to help a prosperous, nuclear, colonial theocracy?
Mearsheimer & Walt interview repeatedly aired on the BBC (M/W might be marginalized in the Israel first US media, but they certainly haven't been internationally thus far):
http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=81896
Jewish Freedom's Watch Test Markets Language to Sell Iran War:
link to itszone.co.uk
Here's the comment by Hannah Rappleye for those whose computer screens can't read Phil's formatting:
Finkelstein ended by saying, it's "time for american jews to kiss israel goodbye" or
something like that. he began his speech with a brief history of
american zionism and then went off about how the way to solve the
problem is extremely simple: Israel's occupation of the territories is
illegal (cites U.N, Geneva Conventions, International Court of
Justice, etc) and peace will not come until that occupation is over.
Etc.
The question and answer part was interesting. After
comparing the numbers (civilian deaths), he said, "Hamas was a
terrorist organization, but the IDF is about 4.5 times more terrorist than Hamas."
Quoting roughly: When asked to discuss his tenure issue at DePaul he started singing gospel songs like, "Were
You There When They Crucified My Lord?" and evaded the question. One
of the questions I asked was about discussing Isarel on campus, but
that got lumped together into the tenure issue by the moderator so I
got no answer, just gospel, unfortunately.
"I'm always amused when my religious Christian friends talk about Israel with me and are shocked that I think the US should cut off funds to Israel until they give up the settlements. They feel much stronger about a unified Jerusalem than I do."
Most Christians who feel that strongly about Israel are mentally ill Christian Zionists pining for Armageddon. There is something wrong with them that, as their own country crumbles, they spend their time wringing their hands about the fate of a bunch of Jewish storytellers half way across the world on the one hand, and praying for End Times on the other.
The fact that a significant portion of US government foreign policy is set by these troglodytes and their Jewish counterparts (messianic Jewish Zionists) goes a long way toward explaining the US government's irrational, self-destructive behavior in the Middle East.
- Off topic -
Just a reminder (though it's probably obvious): the new anonymous on the block is not me.
Charles, you are not the first one here to receive the "Do you happen to be" treatment. It's part of their game. Anyway if you want to know my background I'm from somewhere in the southern hemisphere, a third world country. A mere thrall inside the great american empire.
So there is an anonymous, an Anonymous, an anon, and an anon2.
And Anonymous not only doesn't use his name, he won't even identify what country he is in, not that it matters.
Pretty pathetic kids. Pretty pathetic.
My dad always said, "Consider the source." He wouldn't even talk to anyone who didn't identify himself." His job was to investigate train wrecks on the old New York Central System lines.
What is happening, is that the American Jewish community is being culled by the identity dissolving of American assimilation, a process that has been going on since Irving Berlin wrote "White Christmas".
This means that what is left is, by process of elimination, increasingly un-assimilatable: hardcore.
As this process continues, those identifiable as "Jewish", will be increasingly radical, perhaps, because of the culling, farther to the right than even the Israeli right. An extremist fringe group.
This is like the classic example of the mythological bird that, flying in ever decreasing circles, finally flies up its own fundament and disappears.
Is Phil crying wolf again? He said W&M's book was going to blow the gates open so the 800 LB gorilla could at last be free. But then he quotes his update:
"Yes, Walt and Mearsheimer are marginalized"
Now he says Jacob Heilbrunn's book can write the unwriteble now. All that's happening are things at the periphery, with no relevance in the mainstream world. The Lobby will always evolve to counter any new threats that comes about. They didn't amass all this power by being the most naive group in town.
Finkelstein and Chomsky might not be completely accurate, but they are not giving the lobby a free pass. They just acknowledge that the w/o the lobby, the US will not revert to becoming like Switzerland as some uber right wingers might think. Hard power, soft power or neocon power, they are all tools of the empire to achieve the same result.
It would have been nice if you had announced ahead of time that Finklestein was speaking in NY. Any chance in the future that you could announce such events of interest to those of us who read you regularly?
Aww for the love of god men!
We've lost Nancy's approval again.
You know, it's just not worth it. I'm through posting here about the disaster to humanity, and to American society, that Jewish Supremacist Zionism has been.
Nancy's respect was all I wanted out of this and now that it's gone I'm not much use here anymore I'm afraid.
Adieu, colleagues,
Phillip, you're a brave man,
Witty, you smell bad and make dogs anxious
Nancy,
You were everything to me.
I'll tell you my name if you'll just tell me one more time, just once more. Tell me what I need to feel validated:
Tell me I'm… SERIOUS… Tell me that when I talk about unpalatable atrocities without using my full professional name, I'm not just any old punk "kid"… Nancy!
Oh Nancy!!!!!!
I WANTED TO BE SERIOUS FOR YOU NANCY!
You should be serious about taking your medication you unhinged piece of candy.
- Off topic -
"And Anonymous not only doesn't use his name, he won't even identify what country he is in, not that it matters."
Exactly my point.
"Pretty pathetic kids. Pretty pathetic."
Indeed, Nancy, I am pathetic. I live in a country where most people consider one another worthy of suspicion (with good reason because we live under the law of the jungle), where crime and violence is the daily dish, where poverty is the garment of the common man. Though I am pathetic, still I am come from the future, I am what americans will become if they "stay the course." In fact if you continue on your path you will be lucky to become just another bunch of pathetic monkeys sitting in trees with a keyboard over their knees like me.
"My dad always said, "Consider the source." He wouldn't even talk to anyone who didn't identify himself."
Charles, I talk to no one. I make my solitary comments and that's all. If there's no substance in what I say better just discard it, because if you want credibility you should go for pulitzer winners like Judith Miller.
By the way looks like no one understood my joke on Mukasey and Chertoff. And you probably don't now what fucoids are or that suckoid is a slang for bothersome monkeys who write jokes nobody understands. Oh pathetic me!
Ah! the sarmatian is always there before we monkeys finish scratching our big hairy heads full of vacuum! Slow monkey me!
Iran War: American Military vs. Israel Firsters:
http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?p=400387#400387
I should probably just add right now that no, not all (none) of my statements here in Mondoweiss comments have been independantly verified by any Pulitzer Prize winning Zionist reporters.
I am only a more serious monkey than Anonymous because his country plays inferior football to ours, and were I to go out in the imperial homeland wearing our country's football uniform, I might not even be confused for Mexican.
That can be mended! That can be mended! Instead of submitting my recommendation of Witty to the Nobel Peace Prize commitee for his "Compassionate Genocidalism" (TM) I will submitt it to the Pulitzer's for his achievements in making effective use of linguistic deformation in the magical disappearance business. Why! If Judy could win the pulitzer for magical appearance of wmds, why won't Witty receive one for magically disapearing an entire "honour-bound by tribal affinity" monster? (Thanks Evanj again, for defining the Witty imperative)
David Seaton wrote:
"What is happening, is that the American Jewish community is being culled by the identity dissolving of American assimilation…This means that what is left is, by process of elimination, increasingly un-assimilatable: hardcore…This is like the classic example of the mythological bird that, flying in ever decreasing circles, finally flies up its own fundament and disappears."
WM wrote:
"The Lobby will always evolve to counter any new threats that comes about. They didn't amass all this power by being the most naive group in town."
This is why the Jewish Zionist leaders need the Christian Zionists. As the sane diaspora Jews fall by the wayside and assimilate, the Jewish Zionists need another source of malleable, highly manipulatable dupes to do the heavy lifting.
In the past, Jewish Zionist leaders were able to keep Jews toiling on the plantation by regularly invoking "the Holocaust” and “anti-Semitism." Subscribing to the theory of synchronicity, the JZ's played that card for as long as they possibly could before it went bust.
The smartest Jews have grown wise to their tricks and are starting to head for the door. Perhaps post-Iraq war, they now understand the scam, and where these JZ fanatics will lead them.
So now the JZ's need a new source of nutrition, and they have plenty of dimwitted Christian Zionists from which to choose.
They regale them with tales of Godliness, the opportunity to be proximate to "the Chosen," to serve as Noahides in the hierarchy of "the prophets" and "the people of the book."
Presto: a new constituency of suckers.
This is why, perhaps, the British had the foresight to take a stab at solving "the Jewish problem" by acquiescing to the creation of Israel.
Christian Zionists, Jewish Zionists, Judeo-Christian Zionists: the cage is built, let's move these bloodsuckers in.
Journalists Won't Cover Important Jewish Stories If They Touch on Issue of Influence
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/10/journalists-won.html
Does the talmud really refer to Jesus as a bastard?
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html
If anyone doesn't beieve that Jesus was born of immaculate conception, then they are actually endorsing the idea that he was a bastard.
bas·tard (bstrd) n. 1. A child born out of wedlock.
Ed wrote:
"This is why the Jewish Zionist leaders need the Christian Zionists. As the sane diaspora Jews fall by the wayside and assimilate, the Jewish Zionists need another source of malleable, highly manipulatable dupes to do the heavy lifting."
But are the christian zionist that influential? They might make a bring up issues about Israel's right and support for Israel, but at the end of the day, they go back to their core beliefs of conservative christianity.
Also, you have to see what other issues they have had influence on the American government? Have they gotten the gov't to ban abortion? Allow prayers in school? Privately funded christian schools? Ban gay marriages? Their success on pushing on issues that they strongly believe in are at marginal at best, so why would they all of a sudden become a force to be recognized? Obviously it is because they jumped onto a bandwagon that is already going at full speed.
I'm not an expert on American politics, particularly concerning the conservative religious wing of the Republican party, but isn't the electoral system a primary reason both jewish americans and conservative christians have a disproportionate amount of influence on American politics. If a candidate wants to win the presidency they need to win key states like New York, Florida, OH, and states in the South. In order to do so they often need the support of jewish and fundamentalist christian groups.
Despite what you or Dr. MacDonald say, the fundamentalists have actually been able to gain a considerable amount of influence. I'm recalling the debacle in the Justice Dept earlier this year.
The reason they have not been more successful in the issues you raised is because a majority of Americans don't support those positions.
Phil:
This is a personal email; I can't find your email address. I also tried to write you earlier, and did not receive a response.
Please respond to this one.
You liked my IS article on the NY Times and Haaretz. I've been thinking of starting my own blog, specially devoted to commenting on how the Times, and H, treat the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and U.S. policy. In other words, like my article, but on an ongoing basis.
However, rather than going through all the work that must be involved in setting up a blog, and then responding to comments, etc., I'm wondering whether you'd be interested in having me join your blog, on some sort of regular basis.
Jerry Slater
Hi Jerry, I appreciated your earlier article. I know it's undignified, unserious, and everything else, but Phil's comments section would be a fine place to inform us of your research, if you ask me.
Phil has quite a few talented bloggers leaving extended comments here already. It seems many people who read the blog also read the commentary.
anonymous said:
"The reason they have not been more successful in the issues you raised is because a majority of Americans don't support those positions."
That just means they have no real power. They just happen to attach themself onto an issue that the Israel lobby has a stranglehold on. In reality, they are just a bunch of hicks that are easily manipulated by people in power, whether it is the political corporate elite or the zionist lobbies.
Yes WM – The only real evil in the world is those dastardly Joos. Everyone else is a selfless saint, although some are prone to be being suckers for those dastardly joos.
Thanks for clarifying reality for us. You are a credit to the human race.
NASCAR, you are a pretty ignorant person, as I can see that you have missed out completely on my statement above:
"Finkelstein and Chomsky might not be completely accurate, but they are not giving the lobby a free pass. They just acknowledge that the w/o the lobby, the US will not revert to becoming like Switzerland as some uber right wingers might think. Hard power, soft power or neocon power, they are all tools of the empire to achieve the same result."
I have mentioned above leftist's view of the invasion of Iraq is that Israel did not necessarily have to push for the war because America are already on the boat for it. If Switzerland seeks to invade Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, then that would be a different case.
HOWL – CHRISTMAS 2007
Buy the movie “Miracle on 34th Street”, A Cherished Holiday Family Tradition, and listen to “White Christmas” from the entertainment Jews,
While the think-tank Jews on C-Span and the complacent Jews selling movies push for war on Iran, and sell America a list of who is evil and who is good.
He's making a list and checking it twice (to see if you will be harassed like a terrorist at the next airport.) He knows when you are sleeping and when you'll be awake, so be good (and love the Jews) for goodness sake!
Silly rabbit: you thought it was about fighting communism or liberalism vs conservatism, or feminism or black vs white or illegal immigration: It's all about the Jews and their buying and selling of America.
They sold their ideas and we bought them. Now we die in Iraq for our stupidity. Our credit and borrowing is maxed out. Our 'adjustable-rate mortgages' ended up in that shysters paradise, the Stock Market. Some of us have no jobs, and join the military.
Rejoice dumb evangelicals: There will always be Christmas!
Will you go and die in Iran also?
The simpleton equation now driving American foreign policy: the Jews are good and anyone who opposes them should be exterminated (but without the use of ovens – like cutting off the power in Gaza).
Would you then say “it was those misguided Reagan conservatives that ruined America”, or “it was those dumb-liberals that ruined America”: either way you are wasting your breath. The lilliputian Jews now control the massive slumbering carcass of America in all spheres of activity.
Get used to it. Deal with it. You can't fight it, so you may as well sit back and enjoy it!
That's my boy! What a good little Nazi you are!
oh, I forgot to include this:
It's not enough to have crucified Iraq. Now the Jews want to further atone (for their six million dead) by crucifying Iran (for having the same concerns about national defense that Israel had during the Dimona deception days).
notice the complete lack of holocaust denial in the above comment.
Just Saw Bill Moyer's show on Annapolis, with a redux on his original whitewashed show on CUFI, which along with a investigation that tiptoed around the Israel lobby issue to avoid all non-christian references, sometimes to laughable outcome (CUFI was at force protesting in the Ahmadinejad speech in Columbia or CUFI conference in DC had the ears of congress, including a few that showed up (where's AIPAC's meeting with half the members of congress?)), along with interview with Rabbi Lerner that seems to be edited, with no followup to Lerner's reference to the real threat being AIPAC (I know Moyer edits his show to remove controversial topics like Israel because I saw a segment of his initial show broadcasted on Democracy Now which had someone saying something controversial, but when I saw it on PBS, it was not there).
Anyway, the followup show had Ronald J. Sider, a leading evangelical, who said CUFI was a speck of dust in the evangelical movement.
He also had M.J. Rosenberg, of IPF, who said CUFI was insignificant compared to the right wing jews, whom along with AIPAC, has control of both parties of congress on the sole issue they cared about. CUFI on the other had, has nobody else to vote for besides republicans so they sidelined themselves.
It was also stated that the lobby have the weapoin of money, which is something the fringe crazies like CUFI and its hillbilly members probably don't have much off. They could barely keep up repairs to their cave homes, let alone buy off the congress.
When you can show me a Christian Zionist-owned television network, or movie studio, or national newspaper, then I'll start regarding them as something more than a smoke screen.