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	<title>Comments on: YIVO Stages Event on Walt/Mearsheimer; Can Jewish Institutions See Israel As Others See Israel?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/yivo-stages-eve.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/yivo-stages-eve.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:18:48 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/yivo-stages-eve.html/comment-page-1#comment-68251</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/05/yivo-stages-eve.html#comment-68251</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A little ranty Phil.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;The answer so far is that liberal Jewish intellectuals have evaded the issue, arguing that Bush and Cheney bear full responsibility for the war.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This is an accurate summary, absent the exageration of the term &quot;full&quot;.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The BIG reason that liberal Jews don&#039;t criticize Israel as much as or in the way you would like them to, is for two reasons:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;1. Because Israel is their family, and the most ethical and effective manner to influence one&#039;s family members is by intimate suggestion, not by public denunciation.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;2. Because they find that to demonize Israel and to stand in lockstep with left and/or fascistic anti-Israel zealots is equally wrong and innaccurate.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The far left constructs a silencing of liberalism, and you join in that silencing.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I know your liberal family. They express to me a sentiment of simultaneous assertion and compassion (I only see them at the same events that I see you). That is the majority Jewish voice, and even the majority of Jewish money.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A little ranty Phil.</p>
<p>&quot;The answer so far is that liberal Jewish intellectuals have evaded the issue, arguing that Bush and Cheney bear full responsibility for the war.&quot;</p>
<p>This is an accurate summary, absent the exageration of the term &quot;full&quot;.</p>
<p>The BIG reason that liberal Jews don&#39;t criticize Israel as much as or in the way you would like them to, is for two reasons:</p>
<p>1. Because Israel is their family, and the most ethical and effective manner to influence one&#39;s family members is by intimate suggestion, not by public denunciation.</p>
<p>2. Because they find that to demonize Israel and to stand in lockstep with left and/or fascistic anti-Israel zealots is equally wrong and innaccurate.</p>
<p>The far left constructs a silencing of liberalism, and you join in that silencing.</p>
<p>I know your liberal family. They express to me a sentiment of simultaneous assertion and compassion (I only see them at the same events that I see you). That is the majority Jewish voice, and even the majority of Jewish money.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Young</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/yivo-stages-eve.html/comment-page-1#comment-68252</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/05/yivo-stages-eve.html#comment-68252</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well put Mr. Witty. I&#039;m sure you&#039;ll be denounced as a fascist apologist gargoyle by the hyterics here, but you seem to be able to shrug them off quite well. Indeed, Mr. Weiss appears to be a sensationalist who is prone to extreme pronouncements. I dare say I much prefer the more serious MJ Rosenberg to Philip Weiss.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well put Mr. Witty. I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll be denounced as a fascist apologist gargoyle by the hyterics here, but you seem to be able to shrug them off quite well. Indeed, Mr. Weiss appears to be a sensationalist who is prone to extreme pronouncements. I dare say I much prefer the more serious MJ Rosenberg to Philip Weiss.</p>
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		<title>By: Defenestrator</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/yivo-stages-eve.html/comment-page-1#comment-68253</link>
		<dc:creator>Defenestrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/05/yivo-stages-eve.html#comment-68253</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Israel is family?  By that thinking then, you understand exactly why Muslims will not ever criticize suicide bombers, and do not hold it against them?  After all, they are members of the same family.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;What is &quot;anti-Israel&quot;?  Is it being against the existence of Israel (the only nation-state that claims a &quot;right to exist&quot;) or is it being against the policies of Israel?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Further, why is this dual loyalty something that we American Gentiles should trust?  Just because the majority of Americans are more upset about immigrants cheering for their home country in soccer games than about policy that is detrimental to the long-term interests of the United States doesn&#039;t make the latter far worse than the former.  The ability to hide a message in clever talking points rather than wrapping a flag around it doesn&#039;t make it any less insidious.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Israel is family?  By that thinking then, you understand exactly why Muslims will not ever criticize suicide bombers, and do not hold it against them?  After all, they are members of the same family.</p>
<p>What is &quot;anti-Israel&quot;?  Is it being against the existence of Israel (the only nation-state that claims a &quot;right to exist&quot;) or is it being against the policies of Israel?</p>
<p>Further, why is this dual loyalty something that we American Gentiles should trust?  Just because the majority of Americans are more upset about immigrants cheering for their home country in soccer games than about policy that is detrimental to the long-term interests of the United States doesn&#39;t make the latter far worse than the former.  The ability to hide a message in clever talking points rather than wrapping a flag around it doesn&#39;t make it any less insidious.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles  Keating</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/yivo-stages-eve.html/comment-page-1#comment-68254</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles  Keating</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/05/yivo-stages-eve.html#comment-68254</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;The man who loves other countries as much as his own stands on a level with the man who loves other women as much as he loves his own wife.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Theodore Roosevelt&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;The man who loves other countries as much as his own stands on a level with the man who loves other women as much as he loves his own wife.&quot;</p>
<p>Theodore Roosevelt</p>
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		<title>By: Charles  Keating</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/yivo-stages-eve.html/comment-page-1#comment-68255</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles  Keating</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/05/yivo-stages-eve.html#comment-68255</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Further, some &quot;family&quot; members who are actually on the front lines object: &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.&lt;br /&gt;
The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Seems maybe before the USA will take things equally seriously, we need to bring back the military draft. &lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further, some &quot;family&quot; members who are actually on the front lines object: </p>
<p>We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.</p>
<p>We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.</p>
<p>We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.</p>
<p>We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.</p>
<p>We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.</p>
<p>We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.</p>
<p>We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.</p>
<p>We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.<br />
The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.</p>
<p>Seems maybe before the USA will take things equally seriously, we need to bring back the military draft. </p>
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		<title>By: Gene</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/yivo-stages-eve.html/comment-page-1#comment-68256</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/05/yivo-stages-eve.html#comment-68256</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;My comment for this post (that I uploaded in the wrong place):&lt;br /&gt;
http://tinyurl.com/377trx&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My comment for this post (that I uploaded in the wrong place):<br />
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/377trx<br">link to tinyurl.com</a><br /> /></p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/yivo-stages-eve.html/comment-page-1#comment-68257</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/05/yivo-stages-eve.html#comment-68257</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The IDF refusniks are courageous.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Many spend a great deal of time in jail, and experience a great deal of censure in their communities, for their opinions and actions.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But, in most cases, the type of service that soldiers experience can be negotiated. Those that are stationed at roadblocks, but who have confusion as to their mission, are not effective at their jobs. They make mistakes. They are often the ones that harm, as they are over their heads in tension and confusion.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Phil expresses that he doesn&#039;t understand why liberal Jews aren&#039;t on the streets, or the phones.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;He should understand.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The IDF refusniks are courageous.</p>
<p>Many spend a great deal of time in jail, and experience a great deal of censure in their communities, for their opinions and actions.</p>
<p>But, in most cases, the type of service that soldiers experience can be negotiated. Those that are stationed at roadblocks, but who have confusion as to their mission, are not effective at their jobs. They make mistakes. They are often the ones that harm, as they are over their heads in tension and confusion.</p>
<p>Phil expresses that he doesn&#39;t understand why liberal Jews aren&#39;t on the streets, or the phones.</p>
<p>He should understand.</p>
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		<title>By: ej</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/yivo-stages-eve.html/comment-page-1#comment-68258</link>
		<dc:creator>ej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/05/yivo-stages-eve.html#comment-68258</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;PW: &#039;Can American Jewish institutional life admit the horror of the Israeli occupation?&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
RW: &#039;Israel is their family ...&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
i.e. Tribalism rules. &lt;br /&gt;
&#039;...the most ethical and effective manner to influence one&#039;s family members is by intimate suggestion, not by public denunciation.&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
So where and when is this intimate suggestion happening? It isn&#039;t, and it isn&#039;t going to happen in the near future. On the contary. All the evidence points to the opposite.&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;... demonize Israel and to stand in lockstep with left and/or fascistic anti-Israel zealots is equally wrong and innaccurate.&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
On the contrary, to condemn Israel (&#039;the horrow of the Israeli occupation&#039; is both right and accurate. And to label such condemnation left-wing and zealotry is to abuse the language (disgust for Israel&#039;s criminality transcends the ideological spectrum, and is rooted not in zealotry but in the most basic morality and intelligence). &lt;br /&gt;
I.e. tribalism rules, and its contemptible implications are covered over by denial and mendacity.&lt;br /&gt;
In short, Witty and his ilk have their head up their arse and blood on their hands.&lt;br /&gt;
They are criminal Israel&#039;s life support system. &lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PW: &#39;Can American Jewish institutional life admit the horror of the Israeli occupation?&#39; <br />
RW: &#39;Israel is their family &#8230;&#39;.<br />
i.e. Tribalism rules. <br />
&#39;&#8230;the most ethical and effective manner to influence one&#39;s family members is by intimate suggestion, not by public denunciation.&#39;<br />
So where and when is this intimate suggestion happening? It isn&#39;t, and it isn&#39;t going to happen in the near future. On the contary. All the evidence points to the opposite.<br />
&#39;&#8230; demonize Israel and to stand in lockstep with left and/or fascistic anti-Israel zealots is equally wrong and innaccurate.&#39;<br />
On the contrary, to condemn Israel (&#39;the horrow of the Israeli occupation&#39; is both right and accurate. And to label such condemnation left-wing and zealotry is to abuse the language (disgust for Israel&#39;s criminality transcends the ideological spectrum, and is rooted not in zealotry but in the most basic morality and intelligence). <br />
I.e. tribalism rules, and its contemptible implications are covered over by denial and mendacity.<br />
In short, Witty and his ilk have their head up their arse and blood on their hands.<br />
They are criminal Israel&#39;s life support system. </p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/yivo-stages-eve.html/comment-page-1#comment-68259</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/05/yivo-stages-eve.html#comment-68259</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;EJ,&lt;br /&gt;
You demonstrate the characteristics of the &quot;left&quot; or whatever fringe, by your militancy.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It invokes reaction, not sympathy.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Why would someone stand with you in solidarity about anything, if they know you could and do turn on them so viciously?&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EJ,<br />
You demonstrate the characteristics of the &quot;left&quot; or whatever fringe, by your militancy.</p>
<p>It invokes reaction, not sympathy.</p>
<p>Why would someone stand with you in solidarity about anything, if they know you could and do turn on them so viciously?</p>
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		<title>By: ej</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2007/11/yivo-stages-eve.html/comment-page-1#comment-68260</link>
		<dc:creator>ej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/05/yivo-stages-eve.html#comment-68260</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Left? no. Conservative.&lt;br /&gt;
Fringe? no. Mainstream. &lt;br /&gt;
Is it &#039;fringe&#039; to find revulsion at ethnic cleansing, more, ethnic cleansing as the raison d&#039;etre of state building?&lt;br /&gt;
Zionism is not racism? Are the endemically racist consequences of (political) Zionism an accident? &lt;br /&gt;
Again the systemic abuse of language to camouflage a pathological condition.&lt;br /&gt;
Can one imagine a German American writing to the American media, lobbying the American governmental apparatus, with the cry - Nazi Germany is our family? &lt;br /&gt;
Former Education Minister Shulamit Aloni was interviewed in the Arab-Israeli newspaper Ma al-Ahdath on November 1. &lt;br /&gt;
&#039;I am not proud of this state because I see what is happening in it as being very grave ... We have been occupying another nation for 40 years now [60?], and it is a mark of shame and disgrace that has no justification.&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
Halutz and Barak, she claims, are war criminals who should be tried at the International Court of Justice.&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466594,00.html.&lt;br /&gt;
Add the rest of the Israeli governmental apparatus.  &lt;br /&gt;
RW et al - it&#039;s time to join the human race.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Left? no. Conservative.<br />
Fringe? no. Mainstream. <br />
Is it &#39;fringe&#39; to find revulsion at ethnic cleansing, more, ethnic cleansing as the raison d&#39;etre of state building?<br />
Zionism is not racism? Are the endemically racist consequences of (political) Zionism an accident? <br />
Again the systemic abuse of language to camouflage a pathological condition.<br />
Can one imagine a German American writing to the American media, lobbying the American governmental apparatus, with the cry &#8211; Nazi Germany is our family? <br />
Former Education Minister Shulamit Aloni was interviewed in the Arab-Israeli newspaper Ma al-Ahdath on November 1. <br />
&#39;I am not proud of this state because I see what is happening in it as being very grave &#8230; We have been occupying another nation for 40 years now [60?], and it is a mark of shame and disgrace that has no justification.&#39;<br />
Halutz and Barak, she claims, are war criminals who should be tried at the International Court of Justice.<br />
<a href="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466594,00.html.<br">link to ynetnews.com</a><br /> /><br />
Add the rest of the Israeli governmental apparatus.  <br />
RW et al &#8211; it&#39;s time to join the human race.</p>
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