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	<title>Comments on: Why I Talk About Dual Loyalty</title>
	<atom:link href="http://mondoweiss.net/2008/04/why-i-talk-abou.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/04/why-i-talk-abou.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:41:06 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: americangoy</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/04/why-i-talk-abou.html/comment-page-1#comment-61350</link>
		<dc:creator>americangoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/04/16/why-i-talk-abou.html#comment-61350</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Heh.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I just blogged about this a bit.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Source was politico.com from 2007, &lt;br /&gt;
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0307/3177.html&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;Barack Obama’s presidential campaign is moving to tamp down concerns among Democratic supporters of Israel with an e-mail from a Florida congressman to Jewish leaders singing the senator’s praises.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;“What has always struck me about Senator Obama - and this is one of the reasons that I have endorsed his candidacy for president - is that a love for Israel and a desire to keep the Jewish people secure is evident not just in his work, but also in his heart,” wrote Rep. Robert Wexler (D) in the e-mail, which was sent to a list of Jewish community leaders.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;How much more blatant can you get?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;a love for Israel and a desire to keep the Jewish people secure is evident not just in his work, but also in his heart&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Lovely.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Anybody got a more blatant example?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Do I win the thread?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Oh, and if you want, my blog post ranting and raving about this is here:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;http://americangoy.blogspot.com/2008/04/american-president-job-prerequisite-1.html&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh.</p>
<p>I just blogged about this a bit.</p>
<p>Source was politico.com from 2007, <br />
<a href="http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0307/3177.html</p>
<p>&#8220;>link to politico.com</a></p>
<p>&quot;Barack Obama’s presidential campaign is moving to tamp down concerns among Democratic supporters of Israel with an e-mail from a Florida congressman to Jewish leaders singing the senator’s praises.</p>
<p>“What has always struck me about Senator Obama &#8211; and this is one of the reasons that I have endorsed his candidacy for president &#8211; is that a love for Israel and a desire to keep the Jewish people secure is evident not just in his work, but also in his heart,” wrote Rep. Robert Wexler (D) in the e-mail, which was sent to a list of Jewish community leaders.&quot;</p>
<p>How much more blatant can you get?</p>
<p>&quot;a love for Israel and a desire to keep the Jewish people secure is evident not just in his work, but also in his heart&quot;</p>
<p>Lovely.</p>
<p>Anybody got a more blatant example?</p>
<p>Do I win the thread?</p>
<p>Oh, and if you want, my blog post ranting and raving about this is here:</p>
<p>http://americangoy.blogspot.com/2008/04/american-president-job-prerequisite-1.html</p>
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		<title>By: Gene</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/04/why-i-talk-abou.html/comment-page-1#comment-61351</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/04/16/why-i-talk-abou.html#comment-61351</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;America&#039;s former ambassador to Israel, Daniel Kurtzer, recently spoke to the Philadelphia Jewish community about the upcoming US presidential election. And this, in part, is what he said:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;So, when I looked at the candidates [for President of the United States], the first question on my mind – and it is probably the first question on the minds of many of you in this room – is where does the candidate stand with respect to Israel?&quot; &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Does this strike you as blatantly disloyal as its strikes me? Kurtzer is an experienced diplomat who served 29 years in the State Department, was ambassador both to Israel and later to Egypt, and currently is a a visiting professor at at Princeton. And yet when he gives a speech to a group of American Jews in Philadelphia, what does he tell them? He says that for him (as he assumes is true for everyone in the room as well) the most important thing when it comes to choosing a United States president is how the candidate stands &quot;with respect to Israel.&quot; &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Note that he didn&#039;t say the most important issue for Jewish Americans is the candidate&#039;s stance with respect to the slumping economy, loss of manufacturing jobs, balance of payment, declining dollar, energy prices, death toll in Iraqi, lack of health care, illegal immigration, the mortgage crisis or climate change. No, the first (and really only important question in the minds of American Jews, according to Kurtzer) is how the candidate stands on Israel. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In WWII, such misplaced loyalties would have been regarded as treason. Today the mainstream media represents such views as understandable commitment to &quot;the only democracy in the middle east.&quot; &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Well, phooey on that.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>America&#39;s former ambassador to Israel, Daniel Kurtzer, recently spoke to the Philadelphia Jewish community about the upcoming US presidential election. And this, in part, is what he said:</p>
<p>&quot;So, when I looked at the candidates [for President of the United States], the first question on my mind – and it is probably the first question on the minds of many of you in this room – is where does the candidate stand with respect to Israel?&quot; </p>
<p>Does this strike you as blatantly disloyal as its strikes me? Kurtzer is an experienced diplomat who served 29 years in the State Department, was ambassador both to Israel and later to Egypt, and currently is a a visiting professor at at Princeton. And yet when he gives a speech to a group of American Jews in Philadelphia, what does he tell them? He says that for him (as he assumes is true for everyone in the room as well) the most important thing when it comes to choosing a United States president is how the candidate stands &quot;with respect to Israel.&quot; </p>
<p>Note that he didn&#39;t say the most important issue for Jewish Americans is the candidate&#39;s stance with respect to the slumping economy, loss of manufacturing jobs, balance of payment, declining dollar, energy prices, death toll in Iraqi, lack of health care, illegal immigration, the mortgage crisis or climate change. No, the first (and really only important question in the minds of American Jews, according to Kurtzer) is how the candidate stands on Israel. </p>
<p>In WWII, such misplaced loyalties would have been regarded as treason. Today the mainstream media represents such views as understandable commitment to &quot;the only democracy in the middle east.&quot; </p>
<p>Well, phooey on that.</p></p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/04/why-i-talk-abou.html/comment-page-1#comment-61352</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/04/16/why-i-talk-abou.html#comment-61352</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;The U.S. is at war. Has any of these able-bodied kids set foot anywhere near an American base?&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I know what you mean, but frankly, I&#039;d be more concerned about it if the war the U.S. is currently in were more justifiable and better-run than it is. We should not have attacked Afghanistan or Iraq any more than we should have been in Vietnam. The IDF, of course, is problematic too unless you think of Palestinians as disgusting animals who deserve nothing but a bullet between the eyes, but I don&#039;t agree with your implied argument that young American citizens (Jewish or otherwise) are in any sense obligated to risk their lives for Bush&#039;s insane delusions of imperial power.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;The U.S. is at war. Has any of these able-bodied kids set foot anywhere near an American base?&quot;</p>
<p>I know what you mean, but frankly, I&#39;d be more concerned about it if the war the U.S. is currently in were more justifiable and better-run than it is. We should not have attacked Afghanistan or Iraq any more than we should have been in Vietnam. The IDF, of course, is problematic too unless you think of Palestinians as disgusting animals who deserve nothing but a bullet between the eyes, but I don&#39;t agree with your implied argument that young American citizens (Jewish or otherwise) are in any sense obligated to risk their lives for Bush&#39;s insane delusions of imperial power.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/04/why-i-talk-abou.html/comment-page-1#comment-61353</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/04/16/why-i-talk-abou.html#comment-61353</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Phil,&lt;br /&gt;
A list of anecdotes does not of itself add up to the conclusion that you bore. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You are adding the element of interpretation to every one, a prejudicially suspicious interpretation.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;There is gravity in the world. I don&#039;t condemn it when I lose my balance and fall.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
AGAIN and AGAIN,&lt;br /&gt;
If dual loyalty (however opportunistically described) is not illegal, not unethical in personal sentiment, does not itself directly result in harms to any parties, then it is not &quot;dual loyalty&quot; that is the issue but ONLY specifically how the attitude is applied.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And, ONLY specific actions (not the general) applying the sentiment are wrong, and even many of those that you are suspicious of, are subject to debate.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I am definitely dually loyal, and I think it is a MORE ETHICAL position than to be singly loyal. I&#039;m more than dually loyal, I&#039;m loyal to my family. I&#039;m loyal to my employer. I&#039;m loyal to my profession. I&#039;m loyal to my home town. (When I speak about the town where I live, that is my HOME. That is my &quot;we&quot;.) I am definitely loyal to my region.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Hear this please. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I find your repeated invocations opposing dual loyalty as a generalization where the sentiment is the crime not the actions, to be suppressive and collectively punitive.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I personally can&#039;t find a distinction in your approach that does not contain the seeds of fascism.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I agree with you that the prayer for the state of Israel has no place in synagogue worship, and I don&#039;t say it. (I have on occassion said prayers for the IDF to be successful in protecting Jewish people in Israel, though.) &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Please then in the effort for consistency, strongly object to any invocations of loyalty to the United States in any religious ceremony anywhere as similarly off the point.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil,<br />
A list of anecdotes does not of itself add up to the conclusion that you bore. </p>
<p>You are adding the element of interpretation to every one, a prejudicially suspicious interpretation.</p>
<p>There is gravity in the world. I don&#39;t condemn it when I lose my balance and fall.</p>
<p>
AGAIN and AGAIN,<br />
If dual loyalty (however opportunistically described) is not illegal, not unethical in personal sentiment, does not itself directly result in harms to any parties, then it is not &quot;dual loyalty&quot; that is the issue but ONLY specifically how the attitude is applied.</p>
<p>And, ONLY specific actions (not the general) applying the sentiment are wrong, and even many of those that you are suspicious of, are subject to debate.</p>
<p>I am definitely dually loyal, and I think it is a MORE ETHICAL position than to be singly loyal. I&#39;m more than dually loyal, I&#39;m loyal to my family. I&#39;m loyal to my employer. I&#39;m loyal to my profession. I&#39;m loyal to my home town. (When I speak about the town where I live, that is my HOME. That is my &quot;we&quot;.) I am definitely loyal to my region.</p>
<p>Hear this please. </p>
<p>I find your repeated invocations opposing dual loyalty as a generalization where the sentiment is the crime not the actions, to be suppressive and collectively punitive.</p>
<p>I personally can&#39;t find a distinction in your approach that does not contain the seeds of fascism.</p>
<p>I agree with you that the prayer for the state of Israel has no place in synagogue worship, and I don&#39;t say it. (I have on occassion said prayers for the IDF to be successful in protecting Jewish people in Israel, though.) </p>
<p>Please then in the effort for consistency, strongly object to any invocations of loyalty to the United States in any religious ceremony anywhere as similarly off the point.</p>
<p></p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/04/why-i-talk-abou.html/comment-page-1#comment-61354</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/04/16/why-i-talk-abou.html#comment-61354</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Just to beat a point home.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Are you loyal to your family? &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If, even in a dream, your parents were put on some &quot;trial&quot; for their beliefs, and professed that they care about the ecology of the capes of New Brunswick (not in the US, though similar geographically to a region that they love) more than they cared about patriotism to the US, would you in that dream turn them in, testify as to their disloyalty?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In that dream.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Would you be the judge, the testifying witness, the defense attorney, the journalist, the interrogator, or some other role in that dream?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
The reason I pick a dream-state as reference, is for the honesty of dream-states.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to beat a point home.</p>
<p>Are you loyal to your family? </p>
<p>If, even in a dream, your parents were put on some &quot;trial&quot; for their beliefs, and professed that they care about the ecology of the capes of New Brunswick (not in the US, though similar geographically to a region that they love) more than they cared about patriotism to the US, would you in that dream turn them in, testify as to their disloyalty?</p>
<p>In that dream.</p>
<p>Would you be the judge, the testifying witness, the defense attorney, the journalist, the interrogator, or some other role in that dream?</p>
<p>
The reason I pick a dream-state as reference, is for the honesty of dream-states.</p>
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		<title>By: Rowan Berkeley</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/04/why-i-talk-abou.html/comment-page-1#comment-61355</link>
		<dc:creator>Rowan Berkeley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/04/16/why-i-talk-abou.html#comment-61355</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The question is whether &quot;dual loyalty,&quot; i.e., quite specifically, loyalty to both the USA and the Israeli governments, is politically advantageous to the USA or not. The answer obviously depends on your theory as to the political intentions of both states. However, it does NOT depend on your moral views, as all of you seem to imagine.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question is whether &quot;dual loyalty,&quot; i.e., quite specifically, loyalty to both the USA and the Israeli governments, is politically advantageous to the USA or not. The answer obviously depends on your theory as to the political intentions of both states. However, it does NOT depend on your moral views, as all of you seem to imagine.</p>
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		<title>By: MRW.</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/04/why-i-talk-abou.html/comment-page-1#comment-61356</link>
		<dc:creator>MRW.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/04/16/why-i-talk-abou.html#comment-61356</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;But everyone goes batshit about Mexican immigrant loyalty to Mexico, calling it unAmerican, and how-dare-they-wave-that-flag, and every unimaginable possible. But Israel gets a free pass? Jews get a free pass on this? What if Catholics had this &#039;thing&#039; about the Vatican or Italy? What if one of our senior government officials wrote that Catholics worldwide must be separate in every country they occupy except the Vatican or Rome? And was in charge of war or national security and was instrumental in our attacking a country to benefit the Vatican? How long before you heard that uproar?&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But everyone goes batshit about Mexican immigrant loyalty to Mexico, calling it unAmerican, and how-dare-they-wave-that-flag, and every unimaginable possible. But Israel gets a free pass? Jews get a free pass on this? What if Catholics had this &#39;thing&#39; about the Vatican or Italy? What if one of our senior government officials wrote that Catholics worldwide must be separate in every country they occupy except the Vatican or Rome? And was in charge of war or national security and was instrumental in our attacking a country to benefit the Vatican? How long before you heard that uproar?</p>
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		<title>By: Gene</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/04/why-i-talk-abou.html/comment-page-1#comment-61357</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/04/16/why-i-talk-abou.html#comment-61357</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Witty: &quot;I&#039;m loyal to my family. I&#039;m loyal to my employer. I&#039;m loyal to my profession. I&#039;m loyal to my home town. I am definitely loyal to my region.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;How can you both loyal to Israel and the United States when their disconguity of interests implies that loyalty to one means disloyalty to the other?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Witty: &quot;I&#39;m loyal to my family. I&#39;m loyal to my employer. I&#39;m loyal to my profession. I&#39;m loyal to my home town. I am definitely loyal to my region.&quot;</p>
<p>How can you both loyal to Israel and the United States when their disconguity of interests implies that loyalty to one means disloyalty to the other?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/04/why-i-talk-abou.html/comment-page-1#comment-61358</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/04/16/why-i-talk-abou.html#comment-61358</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Phil,&lt;br /&gt;
Another irony of your position is that it is very similar to the early neo-conservatives, that they determined that they renounced their radical humanism in favor of patriotism.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil,<br />
Another irony of your position is that it is very similar to the early neo-conservatives, that they determined that they renounced their radical humanism in favor of patriotism.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Haygood</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/04/why-i-talk-abou.html/comment-page-1#comment-61359</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Haygood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/04/16/why-i-talk-abou.html#comment-61359</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;The merging of U.S. and Israeli interests is most concerning in public life.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;That&#039;s the whole problem. Sometimes an Irish or Italian flag will be seen flying in our neighborhood. But Italy and Ireland don&#039;t receive aid or arms from the U.S., or demand that U.S. foreign policy be shaped around their needs, or seek in an organized manner to infiltrate the U.S. government with their dual nationals, indoctrinated to be as loyal to the old country as the new.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Before Israel was founded, anti-zionist Jews (who may have been the majority in the early 20th century) predicted that the creation of a Jewish state would bedevil diaspora Jews with allegations of dual loyalty. They were right, of course. But Israel exacerbates the problem by making such heavy demands on U.S. support, which virtually require it to colonize the U.S. government with its insiders to steer policy.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If Israel were a normal country -- living in peace, within recognized borders, on its own money -- dual loyalty would be a non-issue. But could the zionist state even survive, without the U.S. lifeline? My guess is no. And the obvious conclusion, if you&#039;ve got a nonviable state on your hands, is to try something different, instead of &quot;more of the same.&quot; Hijacking the U.S. government to serve the interests of a foreign country is not only ineffective, it&#039;s downright dangerous. One can get executed for that.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>.</p>
<p>&quot;The merging of U.S. and Israeli interests is most concerning in public life.&quot;</p>
<p>That&#39;s the whole problem. Sometimes an Irish or Italian flag will be seen flying in our neighborhood. But Italy and Ireland don&#39;t receive aid or arms from the U.S., or demand that U.S. foreign policy be shaped around their needs, or seek in an organized manner to infiltrate the U.S. government with their dual nationals, indoctrinated to be as loyal to the old country as the new.</p>
<p>Before Israel was founded, anti-zionist Jews (who may have been the majority in the early 20th century) predicted that the creation of a Jewish state would bedevil diaspora Jews with allegations of dual loyalty. They were right, of course. But Israel exacerbates the problem by making such heavy demands on U.S. support, which virtually require it to colonize the U.S. government with its insiders to steer policy.</p>
<p>If Israel were a normal country &#8212; living in peace, within recognized borders, on its own money &#8212; dual loyalty would be a non-issue. But could the zionist state even survive, without the U.S. lifeline? My guess is no. And the obvious conclusion, if you&#39;ve got a nonviable state on your hands, is to try something different, instead of &quot;more of the same.&quot; Hijacking the U.S. government to serve the interests of a foreign country is not only ineffective, it&#39;s downright dangerous. One can get executed for that.</p>
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