Roll Over Ben-Gurion, and Tell Jabotinsky the News

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1. hlmeankin says:

   May 30, 2008 at 2:47 am

   Consider: "… Israel has destroyed the future of a Jewish state through its greediness for land."
   Now this has positive and negative aspects.
   Yes, Israel killed and maimed many Palestinians in its greedy pursuit of land,of course a terrible outcome…but the possible end of a Jewish state? That's got to be something to look forward to.
   If its not a good thing….please enlighten me to the reasons why…
   Are we fearing war-crimes tribunals??

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2. ej says:

   May 30, 2008 at 3:58 am

   After a unitary state has been established, all living Israeli leaders, IDF officials and senior intelligence agents will find ready asylum from indictment in Florida, a fate richly deserved.
   Any homesickness for their ersatz lebensraum can be alleviated by a local visit to an even ersatzier version (with the advantage however that nobody is getting killed):
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3. LeaNder says:

   May 30, 2008 at 8:45 am

   I promise I'Ll shut up for a while. But one last long note before I switch to reading only mode:

   hlmeankin, "are we fearing war-crimes tribunals"?

   *"we" and "them"*:

   Who is the "we"? tThe US, Israel, all Western countries? Is the "we" a bit ironical? You wouldn't fear it, but be pleased to see it happen? Who would be first on your list?

   *power*

   Strictly, wouldn't it be a good start, if the US as the most powerful nation in the world, would accept that it's actions in war are NOT beyond the law. How realistic is this, considering the rise of China and India?

   *Israel/Palestine"*:

   Wouldn't a "truth process" in Isreal/Palestine and amendments be a much better thing? And shouldn't this be a careful and slow learning process? From bottom up? How to deal with the deep fear and anger on both sides? Any idea? How to manage this process as long as weapons are a huge industry? Many, many jobs too. Money that creates reality. Weapons that have to be used sometimes to create new demand. Shareholders that expect return.

   *one state/two states*:

   A two states solution with bridges developing slowly, feels more realistic to me. And yes, maybe a one state solution in the future.

   Israel needs time to sort out, if it is a nation, a state for all Jews (…). It is a solution to troubles that missed to carefully adopt to and handle change and modifications in its core ideologies; and it carried it's European experience of how to handle matter: Use power: The Iron Wall, against all the enemies out there.

   As Palestinians need time and much support to get out of the hopeless situation they are caught in. AND a land of their own, AND peace. Time to build up their country.

   What exactly are the powers that loose from such scenario? The settlers, Hamas,…

   * death & destruction – and the birth of the new*:

   Is only in Eastern mythologies death and destruction of the old deeply connected with something new that can rise? Kali comes to mind.

   As there is ample evidence of dead and rebirth in Western mythologies. Jesus strictly belongs into this mythical frame.

   *the victim/the martyr/who has to die for the better of all*:

   The whole idea of the democratization of the ME is essentially such an idea: "Birth pangs".

   The idea is, that the people that are dying are dying for the better of the whole nation.

   *basics in Western thought*:

   Monotheism gives us the antagonist that has to be fought, inside as the devil outside as the "Other", the enemy. This part of religion has to be carefully watched.

   *the neocons and supportive ideologues*

   The neocon's "bomb-them-into-surrender", dry up the money sources for terror sponsorship, so a Western style democracy can be born in the ashes is ultimately such a scenario. It demands mountains of victims. The dead die for the better of all. But aren't these victims a strange mirror image of the suicide bomber? The one good, the other evil? The one a sacrifice to all the other the ultimate evil the "antagonist" a devil?

   Isn't the bringing democracy to the ME a red herring. What about our democracies?

   *US/…."*

   How did US style pragmatics influence this idea? "Let's do something first and see what happens after." How big is the push from the military complex, that can't live without war: and thus always needs enemies? The dependency of Western nations on oil is obvious, as is the increasing demand in the "Third World" and one day there will be none left. Doesn't that point on the central weekness in Western economics. … What larger *realistic* strategies and ideologies will future generations find in the now censored?. What part will end up in the shredders? Or somehow disappear without leaving a trace? What was decided secretly. Which strategy won and why exactly? Admittedly I would like to tace a closer look at the interests of the central movers (and their dependencies) during the run up to war. Israel no doubt played it's part, due to its decades long experience with terrorism, but find it hard to believe that is all, here is to be found.

   *Israel/Zionism*:

   Israel/Zionism finds itself caught in a dilemma, it necessarily had to deal with non-democratic leaders of the Arab states and now it watches the rise of the masses: We are the people! Or is this only a dream? While leaders pulling strings IS both US/European historical reality AND blamed on the Jews in the Protocols. Machiavelli wasn't a Jew!

   And there is much evidence that the Arab leaders freely use the old hoax, even for soap opera serials. It's essentially a fake document for the masses. Although the Nazis didn't print it fearing the masses could realize it was close to their own plans.

   *Yes, we can*

   Future projects should develop carefully from bottom up. I know, it feels utterly unrealistic to see this happen, but then? It seems to be the core of yes "WE" can.

   Yes, partly that is an illusion. But let's move one step forwards in this direction,

   ******************************************

   *Good news from Africa*

   In South Africa not long ago, the unions (if I remember correctly) worked so well and swift together that a ship with Chinese weapons for Africa found no harbor to unload and had to return from were it came. Wonderful!!! Congratulations to our brothers in Africa.

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4. MM says:

   May 30, 2008 at 11:28 am

   "And speaking of Hebrew U, Walt and Mearsheimer are going there next week. I wonder where they are on this idea."

   This is what I've repeatedly criticized about the W&M thesis here and elsewhere:

   Though they undoubtedly knew the reaction to their work would be harsh, they seemed to try to moderate its reach by not coming to the obvious conclusion: zionist colonialism is, was, and always will be IMMORAL, ILLEGAL, and ILLEGITIMATE in the eyes of the indigenous population.

   On p.96 W&M even quote one of zionism's ideological founders, Berl Katznelson:

   "The Zionist enterprise is an enterprise of conquest."

   But instead of challenging zionism, they hide their critique of the Lobby behind the most vacuous phrase in international politics, "support[ing] Israel's right to exist."

   I always ask this, but I'll ask it again–is there any other colonial conquest that is considered righteous and justified in 21st century humanitarian western society? Even one?

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5. 5 dancing shlomos says:

   May 30, 2008 at 12:23 pm

   LeaNder | May 30, 2008 at 05:45 AM

   your english is much improved(seems to me) in such a short time. very smart you are.

   for palestinians or iraqis better to keep you in classroom and away from victims. you are better for an oppressor

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