Comments on: Walt & Mearsheimer Edge Into the Mainstream

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

I think its had barely incidental effect.

Any of their ideas that had merit on their own (which is what you quote as valid, the isolated), were articulated widely prior.

The unique thesis that they inferred was that AIPAC "CAUSED" the US to invade Iraq, which is a fallacy in any proportional analysis, and really from any reasonable angle.

And, sidebars to their thesis, DO resemble the America First thesis of Lindbergh and Father Caughlin, that sought to keep the US out of WW2 (as well as marginalize Jews' participation in American civil life on racial and ethnic basis).

The sidebars are "Jews control the media", "Jews control the financial markets", "Jews are insular and contemtuous to 'real Americans'".

Each incidentally true, but effectively and structurally UNTRUE.

Did Walt/Mearsheimer say those things directly? It depends on how charitably you wish to regard very similar statements. (Those that experience some threat by inference are less charitable. Those that desire threat are more charitable.)

By: Jim Haygood

Jim Haygood — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

No no no, Richard, Phil's changing the world! Elite, assimilated, self-hating, Jewishly illiterate, unemployed, sexually frustrated fuckheads everywhere who have never been to israel agree with him. Its Obama time–long hypocritical sacks of shit!

By: Art K.

Art K. — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

For "Silent Sea," read "Silent Spring."

By: Jim Haygood

Jim Haygood — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Naw, let's call it Silent Sea. That way we can remind ourselves that Phil never knows what the fuck he's talking about!

By: Arthur A.

Arthur A. — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Phil maybe a bit careless with details, but he gets it right in the main. Should Israel attack Iran the blowback in this country may well surprise. We all need to move beyond petty tribal identifications.

By: David Miller

David Miller — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Richard Mitty's beating down of strawmen is something to expect in the comments, especially in topics as well covered as these.

Mitty: "The unique thesis that they inferred was that AIPAC "CAUSED" the US to invade Iraq, which is a fallacy"

The fallacy here, of course is the classic strawman. The Lobby is identified as "a loose coalition of individuals and organizations that actively works to move U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction. It is not a single, unified movement with a central leadership, and it is certainly not a cabal or conspiracy that 'controls' U.S. foreign policy. it is simply a powerful interest group, made up of both Jews and gentiles, whose acknowledged purpose is to press Israel's case within the U.S. and influence American foreign policy in ways that its members believe will belefit the Jewish state. The various groups do not agree on every issue, although they share the desire to promote a special relationship between the U.S. and Israel (pp. 5).

Mitty: "Each incidentally true, but effectively and structurally UNTRUE."

I wonder how Mr. Mitty manages to validate and authenticate his claims here. Maybe he should use more caps-loc.

By: Duscany

Duscany — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Charles Lindbergh gave anti-war speech prior to Pearl Harbor in which he argued that the two main forces trying to pressure the US into WWII were American Jews and the British. It is possible to argue that staying out of the war was a poor idea but it's just plain dishonest to suggested that organized Jewery and Winston Churchill weren't frantic to get us into the war.

By: A.D.

A.D. — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

To add to David Miller's post, I don't remember M&W claiming that the lobby (much less AIPAC) CAUSED the Iraq war. Only that it pushed hard for it, which is pretty uncontroversial for anyone who was alive during the run-up.

By: samuel burke

samuel burke — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

have a lobby but register it as representative of a foreign nation and cease the illusion.

By: samuel burke

samuel burke — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Phil are you insinuating that the media has been muzzled?

say it aint so shane...witty will set you straight...dont you know that its the journalists fault for not calling a spade a spade ...just like its the polilticials fault for not speaking up....never mind that they are wee slikit timrous beasties, but surely the lobby doesnt muzzle journalists into behaving like cowering unamerican wimps..and the politicos into turning a blind eye while the constitution they swear an oath to gets raped right before their frigin eyes.

if americans knew...which they dont.