I think I’m missing the point. Joe Klein is on fire, as they say. Here he is letting it rip again on the neocons and apologizing for supporting the Iraq war. Here are Josh Marshall and Jed Lewison standing up for him. And here is former Bush aide Peter Wehner being lawyerly and sanctimonious about him at the National Review, saying Klein shouldn’t blog, he’s too wild. Oh my– Klein should keep blogging this subject, he’s starting the conversation we’ve all been waiting for. Time Magazine should sense the moment and put the issue on the cover–Zionist claims on American Jews. And Klein should level with us, Did his own “strong” support for Israel affect his bad judgment on Iraq?
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No offense, but Klein's sudden attack of conscience is pretty timid. What does being proud of his Jewishness have to do with a thing? I also don't believe that only a small sliver of Jews disagree with the neocon's foreign objectives.
I don't believe that there is a moral case for the existence of Israel. And I don't care at all what happens to Israel, as long as the world economy isn't wrecked, and we don't get the immigrants after implosion. I also think that there is no place in the U.S. government or, elite circles, for unassimilated foreigners, and their descendants, to drive policy.
Klein is tap dancing, and he surely isn't courageous. He could at least stand up for the U.S. taxpayers and soldiers, and state that they have no obligations to Israel at all, and that Israel should start paying back every dime borrowed from the U.S. government. That would at least be a start down the path of courageousness. Unhappily, I think intends to take the road oft traveled.
Todd, I have to hand it to you. You don't beat around the bush, ( no pun intended ) and I kind of respect that. One thing I am curious about. Why is Israel the one country that you deem worthy of extinction. Above all others.
Richard Witty:
Has perthe realistic dove discussion. Todd is a prime example of a Phil Weiss fan. I think Phil likes it. Believes what Todd believes. And is happy that he is quoted on neo-nazi websites. I reiterate. Here is a guy who parrots the Hamas line. Is an advocate of the destruction of Israel. Is an advocate of total assimilation in the United States, and certainly practices what he preaches. And has an innate hostility towards Jews who care about the existence of Israel and the practice of Judaism. What is that but a classic case of the Jewish anti-semite. And they are the worst kind. Kind of like Keatings wife by the way.
Klein: "There is a small group of Jewish neoconservatives who unsuccessfully tried to get Benjamin Netanyahu to attack Saddam Hussein in the 1990s, and then successfully helped provide the intellectual rationale for George Bush to do it in 2003… I believe there are a small group of Jewish neoconservatives who are pushing for war with Iran because they believe it is in America's long-term interests and because they believe Israel's existence is at stake."
Good start, but let me expand. I believe there is a large group of US Jewish Zionists who comprise a majority of US Jews that supports the State of Israel in its current quasi-fascist incarnation, and its expansionist agenda. I believe those same Jews seek to promote Israel as a staunch ally of heavily Zionist-influenced Washington's phony "war on terror," modeled on Israel's phony "war on terror," both of which are merely pretexts for aggression. I believe it is intellectually dishonest for those same Jews to simultaneously profess to oppose Washington's war on the Iraqis and nascent war against Iran. I believe it is also intellectually dishonest for Klein to say that he believes the Jewish neoconservatives pushing for the war with Iran truly "believe it is in America's long-term interests." They don't give a damn about America's long-term interests beyond the interests of a narrow US plutocracy, and Klein knows it.
Klein: "I don't think a war with Iran is coming, thank God, but this time I am not going to pull any punches."
You just did.
great entry on the racial politics driving the darfur campaign – i totally agree — this article is the best on the subject and on how 9/11 changed the american racial landascape:
Slavery, Genocide and the Politics of Outrage: Understanding the New “Racial Olympics”
link to merip.org
this is the best line:
But the Save Darfur campaign is better understood by looking at the post-September 11 domestic political scene. Unlike other “hot spots” across Africa, the Darfur tragedy reverberates deeply in the US because it is represented as a racial conflict between “Arabs” and “indigenous Africans,” because Sudan is where the “moral geographies”[47] of black, Jewish and Christian nationalists overlap and because the Darfur crisis offers a unique opportunity to unite against the new post-Cold War enemy.
Let what philip weiss calls the meritocracy within neocon circles air their dirty laundry in public, and let the rest of american jews become aware of who has been sullying their good name here in the good ole u.s.a.
say it aint so shane!!!
http://www.antiwar.com/ips/lubanlobe.php?articleid=13232
Neocon Flap Highlights Jewish Divide
by Daniel Luban and Jim Lobe
A mushrooming media controversy pitting neoconservatives against a prominent Jewish-American political commentator could mark a new stage in the growing battle over who speaks for the US Jewish community on foreign policy issues, particularly regarding the Middle East.
Time columnist Joe Klein's accusations that Jewish neoconservatives, who played a particularly visible role in the drive to war in Iraq and have since pushed for military confrontation in Iran, sacrificed "US lives and money…to make the world safe for Israel," have spurred angry charges of anti-Semitism and personal attacks from critics at such neoconservative strongholds as the Weekly Standard, National Review, and Commentary.
But the fierceness of the controversy surrounding Klein, generally considered a political centrist, highlights the growing antagonism between neoconservative hardliners and prominent US Jews whose more moderate views are aligned more closely with those of the foreign policy establishment.
What you say? the press didnt report this stuff, i wonder why?
Air Force Think Tank Advises Against Iran Attack
link to antiwar.com
Amid rising speculation about the possibility of an Israeli or US bombing attack on Iranian nuclear facilities earlier this month, a major study produced for the US Air Force by a top defense think tank concluded that US military action against Iran was "likely to have negative effects for the United States."
The study, by the RAND Project AIR FORCE, a division of the California-based RAND Corporation, was released Jul. 9, the same day that Tehran test-fired medium- and long-range missiles in an apparent response to reports the previous week that Israel had carried out secret exercises designed to simulate a raid on Iran's nuclear facilities the previous month.
Amid all the fireworks, however, the report, which also called for a multifaceted strategy designed to encourage democratic development in Iran, was ignored by the mainstream media.
Entitled "Iran's Political, Demographic, and Economic Vulnerabilities," the 156-page report also called for Washington to "tone down" its policy statements supporting "regime change" and to "discourage Iranian ethnic groups from revolting against the regime." Both policies, it said, are likely to be counterproductive.
Instead, according to the three main authors of the study, Washington should adopt a more patient approach, "designed to create conditions for effective relations (with Tehran) over the long haul."
sword of gideon: "as per the realistic dove discussion. Todd is a prime example of a Phil Weiss fan…What is [Weiss] but a classic case of the Jewish anti-semite. And they are the worst kind."
Bill Pearlman @ Realistic Dove): "Phil Weiss is a Jewish anti-semite and we all know that they are the worse kind. And his little band of brown shirted, kaffiyeh wearing disciples are even worse. I only post comments over there because I get a little bored sometimes and it’s fun."
http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/224#comment-2458
SOG/Pearlswine, you are truly pathetic. If you're bored, I'm surprised you don't make aliya to Israel and jackboot some Palestinian children. Isn't that how you dedicated Jewish Zionists get off? Or do you just do that on vacation in the "holy land"? Hey, I've got an idea. You can set up a jackboot theme park for fellow masochists in the occupied territories and show "Christian" Zionists your technique. Grub some money, exorcise your psychotic demons, fill your pathetic, empty life — it's a win-win.
say it aint so shane, what are they doing to the only mythical democracy in the middle east and americas only friend in the area?
http://www.military.com/news/article/ss-liberty-sails-to-challenge-israel.html?col=1186032310810
'SS Liberty' Sails to Challenge Israel
July 30, 2008
Military.com|by Bryant Jordan
Forty-one years after the American surveillance ship USS Liberty was napalmed, torpedoed and strafed by Israeli naval and air forces during the Six-Day War, another "Liberty" will be setting out from a Cyprus port in August to try and break through the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip.
The "SS Liberty" is one of two ships — along with "SS Free Gaza" — that will be carrying an international group opposed to Israel's blockade of Gaza. Israel imposed the blockade just over a year ago.
Klein hasn't said 5% of the truth concerning the Jewing of American foreign policy, so we have a looong way to go to get back freedom of speech on this subject.
Iraq has become America's Palestine, thanks to influential Jews. We kill and torture Iraqis with impunity, and think we can push our Status of Forces agreement down their throats. The festering sore will become Palestinian in scope.
Re Iran, Jews have pushed the buttons in Washington which lead to terrorist attacks and deaths in Iran, with not a peep out of the Jewish Community. So don't call me an anti-semite for using the word "Jews"; it's about time ordinary Americans began to use the word also, before they have to donate the blood of their offspring to another gangsterish Jewish perfidy.
J'Accuse! indeed
I pretty much agree with Ed's take on Klein, but I think Joe deserves props for going as far as he did. It's not as far as Phil has walked, let alone the whole distance, but it's a helluva big step anyway.
From little things big things grow.
"Todd, I have to hand it to you. You don't beat around the bush, ( no pun intended ) and I kind of respect that. One thing I am curious about. Why is Israel the one country that you deem worthy of extinction. Above all others."
When have I stated that I wish for the destruction of anyone? My position is that I beleive that there is no moral case for Israel to exist, and that I resent my government favoring Israel, fighting for Israel, and spending a dime on Israel. If Israel were to cease to exist tomorrow, and it wouldn't affect me, as it shouldn't in a perfect world, I would not care, because Israel shouldn't be a concern of an American.
Why do I mention assimilation of Jews? Would it make sense to bring up unassimilated Mexicans, Africans of Asians in the discussions? I'm not a multiculturalist/Marxist, and I view unassimilated groups that despise the traditional majority as a bad thing-and even worse when they make a bid for power.
Also, in the time that I spent in Israel, I saw plenty of Jews from N. America, S. America, Australia and even Africa who identify with Israelis and other Jews more than they do with their supposed countrymen. Maybe being in Israel brought that out in them? I don't believe that anymore.
I also met UN soldiers from various nations who told me how aggressive the IDF is towards peacekeepers- the ones that I met saw the Israelis as the problem in Lebanon. They weren't exactly fond of the Lebanese militias, but they understood what the militias were up against, and why they were fighting.
I wasn't in Israel in a time of declared war, but IAF fighters were constantly going north into Lebanon or Syria, but I never saw a Syrian or Lebanese plane or missile coming south.
I got the impression that there were quite a few Israelis living outside the system for refusing to serve in the military, and I did know a guy who was having second thoughts about returning to the IDF, but did so due to community pressure. He stated to me that he didn't like beating children. I took him at his word.
I also resented reading reports by high-profile American-Jews in the Jerusalem post discussing issues that they would never discuss with an American audience. Would Wolf Blitzer ever discuss Greater Israel with an American audience? I'm sure that he could if he wanted to. He did so in the Jerusalem Post.
I don't view such people as having divided loyalties. I view them as being loyal to Israel only. They are Israel-onliers. My guess is that you fall into the same category.
Nothing that I have stated makes me a National Socialist of any kind, or even an anti-Semite. I don't even believe that most Jews are semitic, anyway.
Am I anti-Jewish? I've met plenty of Jews that I like. Do I care for Jewish influence in my nation and culture? Not really. I especially don't like it when it is purposely disresprctful and destructive. My guess is that the average Jew dislikes non-Jews far more than I dislike Jews.
http://www.prospectsforpeace.com/2008/07/on_joe_klein_and_the_jewish_ne.html
Sword of Gideon,
I agree with you that many of Phil's commenters are anti-semitic overtly, unconsciously, or merely by negligence.
Phil is somewhere between Finkelstein and open, from what I gather.
He identifies with victims, particularly of intellectual victims of what he understands as organized character assassination.
I wish that he would consider that many of those that claim to be defending against character assassination, engage in it, even initiate it.
It would be wonderful if the community of kindness would post here, rather than the community of ragers.
Dear Richard Witty, I appreciate your sensitivity to bullying and intimidation. Calling people names and setting up strawman arguments only to knock them down along with questioning the honesty of the person is cheap.
Well done.
RE: Witty to Sword of Gideon: "I agree with you that many of Phil's commenters are anti-semitic overtly, unconsciously, or merely by negligence."
Witty, you forgot accident of birth.
SOG and Witty are two peas from the same pod. They both construct pro-Amerianism, which Todd so very well advocates, as anti-semitism. The truth is SOG and Witty ooze anti-Americanism in a deceitful manner which tends to demonstrates their own hatred for those of us who resent being reduced to serfdom for the benefit of their Zionist theocracy.
Witty may not be able to distinguish between the meaning of "imply" and "infer", but he certainly understands what he is up to when he demands self-determination for Jews, yet so readily denies the same for Christian Americans and Palestineans.
Joe Klein, regardless of whether by conscience or something less noble has turned and bit the hand that feeds him and Phil is correct to applaud him for it.
Come on guys – olive branches, glasses half full, all that shit. Don't make SOG seem like he has a point!
That's one way of looking at it Polly, the other way is that Klein is engaged in damage control. World Jewry is waking up to the fact that the rest of the world doesn't think they're too cool. Things aren't really any different than they were five years ago and yet now we are hearing Jewish voices complain about 'a small elite group' of Jews and Israeli right-wingers. Why aren't I hearing non-Jewish voices? I think the answer to that is that criticism must be managed. As long as it's only a few elite Jews and Israeli right-wingers, the rank and file don't really have to take responsibility and their dollars can keep flowing in. Why haven't I heard any calls from Jews to end aid to Israel and other organizations that support Israel? Of course we know, the power is in the money.
Laurie is astute. Diplomacy? Let's shove some sticks at Israel, not just carrots. Cut off foreign aid to israel unless they tow the line in the American interest. Check out Ron Paul–he'd treat all foreign nations alike. Of course, that equals anti-semitism to SOG overtly, and to Witty, convertly. With Americans like SOG and Witty, who needs enemies?
Whether or not someone likes Jews is an irrelevant. The issues are what is important. Mao may have won a popularity contest but it doesn't make what he did right.
Thanks Charles, back attcha.
The reason Zionists control our foreign policy is because Zionists control the Federal Reserve and make profits of hundreds of billions of dollars a year with which to buy up control of media, academia, government, and — goes without saying — the real estate market.
Abolish the Fed and as soon as Zionist money goes away, their political clout will go away and Israel will become as important to US foreign policy as, say, Switzerland or Norway.
Oh, and incidently, if we abolish the Fed we'll also have economic stability and positive economic growth for the average American citizen for the first time in thirty-five years.
SOG
"Is an advocate of the destruction of Israel. Is an advocate of total assimilation in the United States, and certainly practices what he preaches. And has an innate hostility towards Jews who care about the existence of Israel and the practice of Judaism."
HUNH? Advocate of the destruction of Israel? I have never read that in any of Todd's comments. Ever. He just doesn't give a shit one way or the other (nor is he required to as an American.) That does not compute to 'advocating'.
You see boogeymen where there are none. Why shouldn't we goys bitch about Israel? We pay their annual nut. We pay Israel enough every year to pay for every Floridian's medical care with no deductible. You dont pay your kid an allowance and then let him spend it on gang warfare. Or use it to buy blow torches to burn down the house.
So get over this crap that the goys can't complain.Of course we can.
P.S. Laurie, liked your points too.
The USA regime is like the noncustodial parent in a state like Illinois. You just pay, and that's it. All in "the best interest of the child"
White boy
Just pay.
If you do, Jews will leave you alone–to keep paying.
SOG is a traitor. Look at his posts on Phil's blog.
He's clearly a racist, and Witty is his cover.
Todd by a wide margin. Clear strong prose with obvious restraint employed. And the plain truth.
That stance is representative of the best in America right now. Frustrated and disgusted.
Todd by a wide margin. Clear strong prose with obvious restraint employed. And the plain truth.
That stance is representative of the best in America right now. Frustrated and disgusted.
Todd's comments link to tiny.cc
are the most cogent I've seen anywhere. Calm, reasoned, with obvious restraint. And like the best Americans now, frustrated and disgusted.
Todd and Laurie by a wide margin. I wish I had their restraint.
The world is waking up – my Jewish friends are have been casting about for something to believe in the last few years as their traditional fall back of hostility to the goys (though not me personally?) no longer seems to make sense.
It is not too difficult to identify a common thread among the purveyors of cultural smut, financial irresponsibility, media dishonesty and propaganda, overhyped threat, manicheanism, ridiculous legal justifications, and academic idiocy.
I posted this earlier and I saw it post. Am I getting edited? I am reposting it.
I am inclined to tolerate the half-assed-ness of Klein's analysis. We need to accept that he needs a fig leaf of sorts, to cushion the full weight of guilt of the Jewish community for the Iraq disaster. We need to encourage and support small steps. Of course the Jewish community at large supported the neocon agenda. Even if they didn't quite know that they were abetting the invasion of Iraq by being silent, they do know that they support Israel right or wrong. They knew that the neocons were Jewish. They knew the press is Jewish, the pundits are Jewish. They went along with the media reaction to Jimmy Carter. They went along with the press noncoverage of the Lebanon war. I believe Jews in general know there had been a Jewish takeover in the US. Yet Jews don't want to know what is really going on in Israel because they want the Palestinians to be evil. If they are evil they can be exterminated and Jews can achieve Eretz Israel.
This is harsh. But we shouldn't forget the best work on this is being done by Jews, Phil,Finkelstein, Judt, Atzmon. Just like it was Einstein that wrote a letter to the Times in 1948 about the massacres in Israel.
Posted by:peters | July 31, 2008 at 07:47 PM
peters, is right on target.