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	<title>Comments on: More on Neocon Fathers and Son</title>
	<atom:link href="http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 14:18:06 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Glenn Condell</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html/comment-page-1#comment-56811</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Condell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/07/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html#comment-56811</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;List time! &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Kristols (and Himmelfarbs), Poddys (and Decters), Kagans (may be primus inter pares in terms of sheer numbers), Feiths, Goldbergs, Perle/Wohlstetter... not to forget the lovely Wurmsers. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The visible part of the iceberg is what, one tenth?&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>List time! </p>
<p>Kristols (and Himmelfarbs), Poddys (and Decters), Kagans (may be primus inter pares in terms of sheer numbers), Feiths, Goldbergs, Perle/Wohlstetter&#8230; not to forget the lovely Wurmsers. </p>
<p>The visible part of the iceberg is what, one tenth?</p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html/comment-page-1#comment-56812</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/07/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html#comment-56812</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;If I&#039;m understanding your and Mr. Ross&#039;s use of &quot;left-factional&quot; correctly, another good example might be David Horowitz&#039;s journey from proprietor of Ramparts magazine in the seventies to the head of today&#039;s Campus Watch, etc.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;(Although Ramparts can also be seen as an early example of the co-option of a dissenting movement by the media class.)&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I&#39;m understanding your and Mr. Ross&#39;s use of &quot;left-factional&quot; correctly, another good example might be David Horowitz&#39;s journey from proprietor of Ramparts magazine in the seventies to the head of today&#39;s Campus Watch, etc.</p>
<p>(Although Ramparts can also be seen as an early example of the co-option of a dissenting movement by the media class.)</p>
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		<title>By: Joachim Martillo</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html/comment-page-1#comment-56813</link>
		<dc:creator>Joachim Martillo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/07/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html#comment-56813</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Richard and Daniel Pipes represent the dynamic duo of distortion. The father consistently misrepresented Russian and Soviet history to obscure the role of Russian Jews in the intelligentsia and radicalism (including assassination, terrorism, mass murder, ethnic cleansing and genocide) while Daniel Pipes has consistently misanalysed Arab and Islamic history for the sake of Zionism.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Horowitz may have followed Irving Kristol in the realization that attacking the so-called &quot;New Class&quot; could raise lots of money from conservative foundations.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Anyway, as I have pointed out elsewhere there is not much difference in the mentality of Soviet and Zionist Ashkenazim while Milton Friedman&#039;s economic ideology like Marxism produces a withering of the state, the latter in a dictatorship of the proletariat, the former in a dictatorship of global capital.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Horowitz and Kristol appear to have concluded that serving the plutocracy produced a better life than serving the revolution.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Friedman and the Pipeses, who came from Jabotinskian families, did not even have to make the choice.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I point out in &lt;a href=&quot;http://members.aol.com/ThorsProvoni/JudoniaComplete/JudoniaCompleteA.htm#_Toc199522932&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Israel Lobby and American Society&lt;/a&gt; [references work in the hyperlinked section]:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;b&gt;Implications for the Jewish Financial Elite&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Of all the transnational Jewish political elites Zionists offered the most to wealthy Western Jews with increasing capital resources while the Marxist transnational political elite promised the least. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Yet, there was a tremendous similarity among the first generation Jabotinskian Zionist and Jewish Marxist leaders and later events[l] have indicated that some sort of Jewish identity has persisted among Soviet Ashkenazim even including those that remained members of the Soviet elite after the founding of the State of Israel.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Despite membership in the former Soviet elite, Russian Jewish oligarchs hooked up with incredible alacrity with both the international organized Jewish community and with the Friedmanites (or Neoliberals), whose movement is in many regards the negative mirror image of that of the Marxism even to the point of being characterized by a mostly Jewish leadership with a mostly non-Jewish following. (See Re: Report: Finkelstein Lecture at MIT.[322]) &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Not only have Friedmanites as members of a predominantly Jewish movement proselytizing to non-Jews found it easy to collaborate with Jabotinskian Neoconservatives on the basis of shared principles and assumptions, but many Jabontinskian Neoconservaties are also Friedmanite Neoliberals. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
The target Zionist constituency has always been Jewish wealth while Jews without major capital resources in Zionist ideology, whether Labor or Jabotinskian, serve simply as a resource (except of course for the Zionist intelligentsia) or simply as &quot;useful idiots.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard and Daniel Pipes represent the dynamic duo of distortion. The father consistently misrepresented Russian and Soviet history to obscure the role of Russian Jews in the intelligentsia and radicalism (including assassination, terrorism, mass murder, ethnic cleansing and genocide) while Daniel Pipes has consistently misanalysed Arab and Islamic history for the sake of Zionism.</p>
<p>Horowitz may have followed Irving Kristol in the realization that attacking the so-called &quot;New Class&quot; could raise lots of money from conservative foundations.</p>
<p>Anyway, as I have pointed out elsewhere there is not much difference in the mentality of Soviet and Zionist Ashkenazim while Milton Friedman&#39;s economic ideology like Marxism produces a withering of the state, the latter in a dictatorship of the proletariat, the former in a dictatorship of global capital.</p>
<p>Horowitz and Kristol appear to have concluded that serving the plutocracy produced a better life than serving the revolution.</p>
<p>Friedman and the Pipeses, who came from Jabotinskian families, did not even have to make the choice.</p>
<p>I point out in <a href="http://members.aol.com/ThorsProvoni/JudoniaComplete/JudoniaCompleteA.htm#_Toc199522932" rel="nofollow">The Israel Lobby and American Society</a> [references work in the hyperlinked section]:</p>
<blockquote><p>
<b>Implications for the Jewish Financial Elite</b></p>
<p>Of all the transnational Jewish political elites Zionists offered the most to wealthy Western Jews with increasing capital resources while the Marxist transnational political elite promised the least. </p>
<p>Yet, there was a tremendous similarity among the first generation Jabotinskian Zionist and Jewish Marxist leaders and later events[l] have indicated that some sort of Jewish identity has persisted among Soviet Ashkenazim even including those that remained members of the Soviet elite after the founding of the State of Israel.  </p></blockquote>
<p>Despite membership in the former Soviet elite, Russian Jewish oligarchs hooked up with incredible alacrity with both the international organized Jewish community and with the Friedmanites (or Neoliberals), whose movement is in many regards the negative mirror image of that of the Marxism even to the point of being characterized by a mostly Jewish leadership with a mostly non-Jewish following. (See Re: Report: Finkelstein Lecture at MIT.[322]) </p>
<p>Not only have Friedmanites as members of a predominantly Jewish movement proselytizing to non-Jews found it easy to collaborate with Jabotinskian Neoconservatives on the basis of shared principles and assumptions, but many Jabontinskian Neoconservaties are also Friedmanite Neoliberals. </p>
<p>The target Zionist constituency has always been Jewish wealth while Jews without major capital resources in Zionist ideology, whether Labor or Jabotinskian, serve simply as a resource (except of course for the Zionist intelligentsia) or simply as &quot;useful idiots.&quot;</p>
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		<title>By: LeaNder</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html/comment-page-1#comment-56814</link>
		<dc:creator>LeaNder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/07/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html#comment-56814</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot; I imbibed from him a left-factional understanding of neoconservatism which I think is vital to understanding it and which I doubt I could ever have gotten anywhere, nor from anyone, else.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Somehow I would like to know more about the &quot;left-factional understanding&quot;. How would he define it.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And Phil, how would you define the &quot;left element&quot; in neoconservativism? &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The only part were I can discover it is in the &quot;bringing democracy rhetoric&quot;. Admittedly I think it is only PR gloss over the older authoritarian mindset. These guys are highly aware that democratic rules in the ME--in many places--might produce a disaster from the Western point of view.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot; I imbibed from him a left-factional understanding of neoconservatism which I think is vital to understanding it and which I doubt I could ever have gotten anywhere, nor from anyone, else.&quot;</p>
<p>Somehow I would like to know more about the &quot;left-factional understanding&quot;. How would he define it.</p>
<p>And Phil, how would you define the &quot;left element&quot; in neoconservativism? </p>
<p>The only part were I can discover it is in the &quot;bringing democracy rhetoric&quot;. Admittedly I think it is only PR gloss over the older authoritarian mindset. These guys are highly aware that democratic rules in the ME&#8211;in many places&#8211;might produce a disaster from the Western point of view.</p>
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		<title>By: scorpio</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html/comment-page-1#comment-56815</link>
		<dc:creator>scorpio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/07/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html#comment-56815</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;my all-time favorite was Saul Bellow&#039;s son writing a book titled &quot;In Praise of Nepotism&quot;. pretty much sums it up&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>my all-time favorite was Saul Bellow&#39;s son writing a book titled &quot;In Praise of Nepotism&quot;. pretty much sums it up</p>
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		<title>By: hlmeankin</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html/comment-page-1#comment-56816</link>
		<dc:creator>hlmeankin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/07/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html#comment-56816</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Joachim&#039;s analysis reduces everything to the relation of elites. What he overlooks is that in order to dismiss Marxism and Leninism,you first have to understand its working principles. a principal one of which is class struggle. Which may take different forms...reflected even in the attempts of Jewish organizations like the Bund to obtain a special place in the workers movement,at the expense of the solidarity of the whole.&lt;br /&gt;
See Lenin on the Bund: &lt;br /&gt;
http://marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1903/2ndcong/13.htm&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Also, what about those Jewish Marxists who rejected Jewish nationalism or zionism?&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joachim&#39;s analysis reduces everything to the relation of elites. What he overlooks is that in order to dismiss Marxism and Leninism,you first have to understand its working principles. a principal one of which is class struggle. Which may take different forms&#8230;reflected even in the attempts of Jewish organizations like the Bund to obtain a special place in the workers movement,at the expense of the solidarity of the whole.<br />
See Lenin on the Bund: <br />
<a href="http://marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1903/2ndcong/13.htm</p>
<p>&#8220;>link to marxists.org</a></p>
<p>Also, what about those Jewish Marxists who rejected Jewish nationalism or zionism?</p>
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		<title>By: LeaNder</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html/comment-page-1#comment-56817</link>
		<dc:creator>LeaNder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/07/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html#comment-56817</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Fathers &amp; Sons: The idea to &quot;infer&quot; the father&#039;s not articulated thought via a paper of his son feels ingenious. It only needs supportive evidence of a very good, close, strong relationship between father and son.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;So far so good. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;To create a specific neocon &quot;clonology&quot; out of a smooth sucession of fathers and sons, apparently without generation conflicts, feels like a double standard. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;What factors create generational conflicts?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We are all shaped by the culture into which we are born.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fathers &amp; Sons: The idea to &quot;infer&quot; the father&#39;s not articulated thought via a paper of his son feels ingenious. It only needs supportive evidence of a very good, close, strong relationship between father and son.</p>
<p>So far so good. </p>
<p>To create a specific neocon &quot;clonology&quot; out of a smooth sucession of fathers and sons, apparently without generation conflicts, feels like a double standard. </p>
<p>What factors create generational conflicts?</p>
<p>We are all shaped by the culture into which we are born.</p>
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		<title>By: Laurie</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html/comment-page-1#comment-56818</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/07/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html#comment-56818</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;hlmeankin do you mean like Hannah Arendt, who during the 1967 war gushed over the IDF?  Do you mean like her?  Well, they never really existed, evidenced by her actions.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hlmeankin do you mean like Hannah Arendt, who during the 1967 war gushed over the IDF?  Do you mean like her?  Well, they never really existed, evidenced by her actions.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles  Keating</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html/comment-page-1#comment-56819</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles  Keating</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/07/07/the-jabotinskians-appear-to-do-an-excellent-job-of-socializing-and-indoctrinating-their-children-it-makes-a-generational-ef.html#comment-56819</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Profile of average American soldier in Vietnam: Young, male , and probably about 19 years old, with no more than a grade 12 education, and from a poor or rural family.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Profile of average American soldier in Iraq: ditto&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The American system is flexible, draft, no draft, results the same. Thank your congress.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Profile of average American soldier in Vietnam: Young, male , and probably about 19 years old, with no more than a grade 12 education, and from a poor or rural family.</p>
<p>Profile of average American soldier in Iraq: ditto</p>
<p>The American system is flexible, draft, no draft, results the same. Thank your congress.</p>
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