Comments on: Hebron, Hebron

By: Denis Drew

Denis Drew — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Lately I have been equating the intransigence of the fanatic settlers more and more with 1960s Alabama Gov. George Wallace standing in the doorway, personally blocking the integration of a university -- and have been thinking that the amount of determination it took to overcome segregation in the American south is what it is going to take to clear every last settler out of the West Bank.

It has to come to that (unless somebody can come up with a deal for a lot of rent -- no kidding).

It has to come to that for the safety of the nation of two-thirds of all living Jews (at least at one time): the USA. It has to come to that as long as our 51st state is capable of starting a war with the rest of the world without consulting the rest of us -- which is why we are missing a couple of buildings in downtown NYC.

It's not just the looks like a duck, etc. thing; Israel's religion is the religion of America's Christians, even if not the other way around. No question about it; when the settlers dispossess Palestinians they are doing it under our flag (and with our high tech weapons).

If you want to imagine how hot under the collar the Palestinians' (craziest, terrorist) supporters around the Islamic world get when the "state" of Israel moves in next door -- just imagine how hot illegal settlers get when forced out and multiply by ten because the Palestinians are on the victim side of illegal!

By: Denis Drew

Denis Drew — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Somehow Israelis who support settlements have get smart and realize there is no critical need served by taking land in the West Bank.

WWII Germany's idea of "living space" was at least critically needed farm land (even if was someone else's), access to mineral mines and fossil fuel fields. Israel's is just space to live -- literally, nothing else. There isn't enough in Israel proper? In the day time on Manhattan island there are three times as many people as there are in Israel proper.

The sheer nonsense that the consensus in the Arab world is to drive Israel into the sea, that terrorism against the USA or Israel is primarily fueled by racial or religious hatred (independent of invasion fomenting hatred) has to die out.

The sensible idea has to be spread (aren't Jews supposed to be smart) that the cost making the whole world hate you for your endless brutal behavior -- for no critical benefit -- is damnably self-destructive -- for "your" other 50 states too.

Israelis have to do a Mel Gibson (we hope he is doing this) and come to realize that there is something very sick inside of them -- about the way they see Palestinians.

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Better that you investigate your traditions, and your heart, rather than interrogate anyone.

That is what I "accused" you of, interrogation. I'm glad that you acknowledged the relentless approach.

I call it a fixation, driven by anger and reaction, rather than an inquiry into truth, relevance, and applicability.

I asked you to find a more surgical, a more effective approach, that involved less browbeating of people, and more criticism of ideas and actions.

I guess you didn't get that. Maybe I didn't express it clearly.

There are odd bedfellows in the world. For example, an orthodox Jew that I dialogued with recently described to me how conservative Muslims and orthodox Jews in Israel have formed an active coalition to ban the annual gay pride parade in Tel Aviv.

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Also,
The audience here is part of the message.

The structure here is of speaking to the converted.

You are not educating anyone. With your finite amount of life time, you are not making respectful presentations to those that have different views than yours and explaining the math of how you got to your current conclusions.

When activists speak only to the converted, their information serves the purpose of arming, rather than informing.

Better that you go to a Jewish Community Center, or an Evangelical Church, and have public conversation, respectful of others' sensitivities and knowledge while still knowing what you do know.

By: charles Keating

charles Keating — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

More like the structure here, set up by Phil's lonely Articles, each in turn, is of speaking to the unconverted. You know, those who don't buy into the one-sided spin of our mass media, influential thinktanks, and the Congress that consults with them exclusively, not to mention the neoconning Bush2 regime.

Phil's the one crying out in the wilderness, not the other way around. Witty himself has made a point of saying this in some of his past arid huffy posts regarding the fact that the Mondoweiss posters are a mere handful; even in belittlement there is truth.

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

"Crying out in the wilderness" is a cult phrase.

He's also not changing hearts and minds.

By: Dom

Dom — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

To Richard Witty...

"Better that you go to a Jewish Community Center, or an Evangelical Church, and have public conversation, respectful of others' sensitivities and knowledge while still knowing what you do know."

A worthwhile sentiment, but how do you propose Phil accomplishes this? Its up to you, but I would suggest reading Mark Braverman's article entitled...
"The Jewish People, Zionism, and the Question of Justice".

It can be found on his web site "Jewish Conscience...
http://www.jewishconscience.org/2.html

Here is one specifically relevant paragraph...

"When I returned to the United States and began to talk about my horror, sadness and deep concern over what I had seen, I was told by many of my fellow Jews that I must not talk like this. I was informed that this makes me an enemy of the Jewish people and that I was opening the way for the next Holocaust. I was told by many Jews that I was disloyal to my people, that I had “gone over” to the “Palestinian side.” One Jewish rabbinical student informed his colleagues that I was obviously a convert to Christianity “masquerading” as a Jew in order to cause the destruction of the Jewish people. I have spoken about my experiences before many groups, almost all of them in churches. I have yet to speak in a synagogue. I am trying hard to make sense out of this and to figure out a way forward. Here is what I have figured out so far."

If Phil is to have any hope of doing what you suggest, it is people like you who must make it possible. Otherwise, you are simply "suggesting the impossible" (at least at the moment it wuld seem to be impossible.)

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

There are plenty of forums in shuls and churches to initiate and/or participate in discussions relevant to living an ethical life.

If its framed as a browbeat, only the converted will show up.

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

I would recommend that in his presentations Phil think in terms of how to appeal to someone like my aunt, whom he knew fairly well.

Intelligent, compassionate, open-minded, progressive, respected, and Zionist in the sense of supporting the logic and healthy institutions of Israel.

By: Dom

Dom — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

To Richard Witty (again)

I do not think your response addresses the issue. Did you read Mark Braverman's article? It hardly strikes me as "browbeating".

"There are plenty of forums in shuls and churches to initiate and/or participate in discussions relevant to living an ethical life."

It seems to me one of Phil's ongoing "points" or emphasis, is the inability, or unwillingness, of most American Jews, to engage the issue of ethics "VIS A VIS" Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

It is also Braverman's point. It is not a criticism of you. But it seems to me that if someone as intelligent, and compassionate, as Braverman can find no audience in the American Jewish world...how is Phil supposed to do so?

And Braverman, as far as I can tell, is not anti-zionist (as is Phil).

This is not a "general issue", or generalization of Jews. It is highly specific. And it is this specificity which must be addressed (easy for me to say, I know, I am not Jewish).

At the risk/certainty of getting "verbally barbecued" here, I would also say that Christians (of the non Christian Zionist variety, like myself) have not made sufficient effort (gross understatement) in reaching out to the American Jewish community, in a supportive way, on this issue.