Comments on: ‘Here Lie a Murderer and the Murdered, Sleeping in One Hole’ (Mahmoud Darwish, Remembered by Two Arabic-Speakers) http://mondoweiss.net/2008/08/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html The War of Ideas in the Middle East Tue, 14 Feb 2012 15:42:52 +0000 hourly 1 By: 5 dancing shlomos http://mondoweiss.net/2008/08/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html/comment-page-1#comment-54622 5 dancing shlomos Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/08/12/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html#comment-54622 <p>j,000,000's, we must constantly keep on our forebrain, face an existential threat from sunrise to sunset and the grey to black in between. to be fair they, j,000,000's, must be given every opportunity to express their subtle to explicit loathing of palestinians, all other arabs, muslims, christians, all, and non-servile God.</p> j,000,000's, we must constantly keep on our forebrain, face an existential threat from sunrise to sunset and the grey to black in between. to be fair they, j,000,000's, must be given every opportunity to express their subtle to explicit loathing of palestinians, all other arabs, muslims, christians, all, and non-servile God.

]]> By: charles Keating http://mondoweiss.net/2008/08/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html/comment-page-1#comment-54623 charles Keating Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/08/12/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html#comment-54623 <p>Perhaps, at least one lesson is that two foes unite to slay a common foe, represented by the snake along with them in the hole (they dug for themselves)? So, who, what is the snake that would threaten both Israel and Palestine? I mean there respective long term survival as a people? </p> <p>And, where is this (former garden?) hole, and this snake? </p> Perhaps, at least one lesson is that two foes unite to slay a common foe, represented by the snake along with them in the hole (they dug for themselves)? So, who, what is the snake that would threaten both Israel and Palestine? I mean there respective long term survival as a people?

And, where is this (former garden?) hole, and this snake?

]]> By: charles Keating http://mondoweiss.net/2008/08/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html/comment-page-1#comment-54624 charles Keating Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/08/12/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html#comment-54624 <p>there=their. sorry i was lost in how the image of the snake has been used throughout history by so many groups of humans </p> there=their. sorry i was lost in how the image of the snake has been used throughout history by so many groups of humans

]]> By: charles Keating http://mondoweiss.net/2008/08/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html/comment-page-1#comment-54625 charles Keating Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/08/12/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html#comment-54625 <p>Long after the hole, an emotional story untold:<br /> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/06/judaism.secondworldwar</p> Long after the hole, an emotional story untold:
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/08/12/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html#comment-54626 <p>Well, Mr. Keating, what a good question. I started by answering it loudly and indignantly, that the place in Occupied Palestinian Territories and the snake is politics of Zionism.</p> <p> But immediately it become more complicated than that - as soon as I remembered that Darwish never lost sight of humanity of both parties in the conflict. </p> <p>So everywhere where there is a setting with murderer and the murdered, that is where "where" is. We can narrow it down to Middle East, I think. It can be killing fields with Arab children shot for sport by Israeli snipers, written about by Chris Hegge, or the aftermath of suicide bomb with the dead bodies of children carried by adult rescue workers like rag dolls, or it can be children succumbing to infection in Gaza City hospital right now, while van with medical supplies from Scottish Charity "Dove and Dolphin" is slowly rusting outside the Rafah border crossing steel gates. (with murdered being the faceless egiptian bureaucrat who will not sign any permits for "jail visit" in case his government were to loose the USA aid). </p> <p>So the place of the hole in Darwish's vision is where murder takes place - it can be crowded street in Nilin where Palestinian boy is being taken to cementary and Border Police is firing live rounds at the crowds, or it can be an intray of a faceless apparatchik who demands permits for one day old children of Arabs whos villages find themselves sealed between the green border and apartheid wall with no water, no housing, no food and no money and no papers.</p> <p>And the snake? If it is not Zionism, then what is it? And the answer is racism. If Palestinians were equals in the eyes of Israeli, the Nakba would not happen, the sewage from the Gaza ghetto would not run untreated to the sea, the obscenity of occupied territories would not be unfolding in front of our unbelieving eyes, and if Israeli were equals in the eyes of Palestinians, the suicide bombers would choose to detonate themselves in the crowds of Israeli conscripts not israeli civilians. </p> <p>Racism, the denial of humanity of the opponent opens doors to the darkest fissures of our soul, as spoken with courage by "Breaking the Silence" IDF soldiers. </p> <p>And the most scary thought of them all is, that by reading comments in Jerusalem Post or in Haaretz, you can hear the hiss of the nazi snake slowly uncoiling itself......... </p> Well, Mr. Keating, what a good question. I started by answering it loudly and indignantly, that the place in Occupied Palestinian Territories and the snake is politics of Zionism.

But immediately it become more complicated than that – as soon as I remembered that Darwish never lost sight of humanity of both parties in the conflict.

So everywhere where there is a setting with murderer and the murdered, that is where "where" is. We can narrow it down to Middle East, I think. It can be killing fields with Arab children shot for sport by Israeli snipers, written about by Chris Hegge, or the aftermath of suicide bomb with the dead bodies of children carried by adult rescue workers like rag dolls, or it can be children succumbing to infection in Gaza City hospital right now, while van with medical supplies from Scottish Charity "Dove and Dolphin" is slowly rusting outside the Rafah border crossing steel gates. (with murdered being the faceless egiptian bureaucrat who will not sign any permits for "jail visit" in case his government were to loose the USA aid).

So the place of the hole in Darwish's vision is where murder takes place – it can be crowded street in Nilin where Palestinian boy is being taken to cementary and Border Police is firing live rounds at the crowds, or it can be an intray of a faceless apparatchik who demands permits for one day old children of Arabs whos villages find themselves sealed between the green border and apartheid wall with no water, no housing, no food and no money and no papers.

And the snake? If it is not Zionism, then what is it? And the answer is racism. If Palestinians were equals in the eyes of Israeli, the Nakba would not happen, the sewage from the Gaza ghetto would not run untreated to the sea, the obscenity of occupied territories would not be unfolding in front of our unbelieving eyes, and if Israeli were equals in the eyes of Palestinians, the suicide bombers would choose to detonate themselves in the crowds of Israeli conscripts not israeli civilians.

Racism, the denial of humanity of the opponent opens doors to the darkest fissures of our soul, as spoken with courage by "Breaking the Silence" IDF soldiers.

And the most scary thought of them all is, that by reading comments in Jerusalem Post or in Haaretz, you can hear the hiss of the nazi snake slowly uncoiling itself………

]]> By: Jim Haygood http://mondoweiss.net/2008/08/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html/comment-page-1#comment-54627 Jim Haygood Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/08/12/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html#comment-54627 <p>.</p> <p>Letting a zionist like Bronner write Darwish's obituary is typical of the cultural insensitivity of the Times. During the Times's electrifying coverage of the Tiananmen Square rebellion in 1989, reporter Nicholas Kristof was backed up by his Chinese wife, Sheryl Wu-Dunn. But no such courtesy is extended to the beleaguered Palestinians, who are assumed by the Times to be a mere appendage of the Israelis.</p> <p>Is the Old Grey Lady becoming the dying General Motors of the Lamestream Media? Today, Bloomberg nearly implies that the Sulzbuggers are virtually miking it dry before dumping the looted shell:</p> <p>------------</p> <p>Aug. 12 (Bloomberg) -- New York Times Co. faces increased financial pressure to cut its dividend as credit quality deteriorates amid record advertising declines.</p> <p>Bondholders are paying for the decision last year by the Sulzberger family-controlled board to raise the quarterly dividend 31 percent to 23 cents a share. Moody's Investors Service says one way for New York Times to save its rating, a step above junk and in danger of being cut, would be to reduce the dividend costing $132 million a year.</p> <p>Shareholders also are losing out with a 43 percent drop in the stock since March 2007, when the New York-based company's board raised the dividend the most in a decade to appease investors. </p> <p>Credit-default swaps are trading as if the company already was rated junk, according to data from Moody's credit strategy group.</p> <p>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aLXAkzjK.H9w&refer=home</p> <p>------------</p> <p>Crrrikey ... if the Slimes goes bust, where will the weddings of investment bankers to society doyennes be published? The mind reels.</p> <p>Given its pretensions, the dying Slimes at least deserves the francophone appellation of "junque journalism" (pronounced "HOON-kay" by your Guatemalan gardener, LOL!).</p> .

Letting a zionist like Bronner write Darwish's obituary is typical of the cultural insensitivity of the Times. During the Times's electrifying coverage of the Tiananmen Square rebellion in 1989, reporter Nicholas Kristof was backed up by his Chinese wife, Sheryl Wu-Dunn. But no such courtesy is extended to the beleaguered Palestinians, who are assumed by the Times to be a mere appendage of the Israelis.

Is the Old Grey Lady becoming the dying General Motors of the Lamestream Media? Today, Bloomberg nearly implies that the Sulzbuggers are virtually miking it dry before dumping the looted shell:

————

Aug. 12 (Bloomberg) — New York Times Co. faces increased financial pressure to cut its dividend as credit quality deteriorates amid record advertising declines.

Bondholders are paying for the decision last year by the Sulzberger family-controlled board to raise the quarterly dividend 31 percent to 23 cents a share. Moody's Investors Service says one way for New York Times to save its rating, a step above junk and in danger of being cut, would be to reduce the dividend costing $132 million a year.

Shareholders also are losing out with a 43 percent drop in the stock since March 2007, when the New York-based company's board raised the dividend the most in a decade to appease investors.

Credit-default swaps are trading as if the company already was rated junk, according to data from Moody's credit strategy group.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aLXAkzjK.H9w&refer=home

————

Crrrikey … if the Slimes goes bust, where will the weddings of investment bankers to society doyennes be published? The mind reels.

Given its pretensions, the dying Slimes at least deserves the francophone appellation of "junque journalism" (pronounced "HOON-kay" by your Guatemalan gardener, LOL!).

]]> By: Richard Silverstein http://mondoweiss.net/2008/08/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html/comment-page-1#comment-54628 Richard Silverstein Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/08/12/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html#comment-54628 <p>I was rather surprised in his critique of the Bronner obit, Abu Khalil didn't notice that Bronner wrote "Darwish SAID he supported a two state solution." What kind of locution is that? Don't you usually trust that if someone says they support a 2 state solution that they DO in fact support it? Then you shouldn't need to say that they SAY they support it.</p> <p>I thought that was cheapshot journalism.</p> <p>I don't know Arabic, but I do know enough about it to know that poetry can be written in a classical Arabic style or a more vernacular, idiomatic style. I don't think AbuKhalil's criticism of that aspect of Bronner's obit was valid regarding Darwish's style.</p> I was rather surprised in his critique of the Bronner obit, Abu Khalil didn't notice that Bronner wrote "Darwish SAID he supported a two state solution." What kind of locution is that? Don't you usually trust that if someone says they support a 2 state solution that they DO in fact support it? Then you shouldn't need to say that they SAY they support it.

I thought that was cheapshot journalism.

I don't know Arabic, but I do know enough about it to know that poetry can be written in a classical Arabic style or a more vernacular, idiomatic style. I don't think AbuKhalil's criticism of that aspect of Bronner's obit was valid regarding Darwish's style.

]]> By: LeaNder http://mondoweiss.net/2008/08/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html/comment-page-1#comment-54629 LeaNder Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/08/12/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html#comment-54629 <p><i>classical Arabic style or a more vernacular</i></p> <p>Richard, I vividly remember that the use of vernacular expressions--spoken language--was regarded a no-no in your own writing exercises at school. Ironically at the same time that people like Walt whitman were studied.</p> <p>Can you give me a couple of US poets from the same time frame as Darwish that use a "classical style" and what exactly would that be?</p> <p>Would you call Walt Whitman a writer of the "classical style" vs the "vernacular" based on the time he lived in? What is classical, classicist? What about Allan Ginsberg, another of my special friends? "Classical" or more "vernacular". </p> <p>I can understand Abu Khalil's critique.</p> classical Arabic style or a more vernacular

Richard, I vividly remember that the use of vernacular expressions–spoken language–was regarded a no-no in your own writing exercises at school. Ironically at the same time that people like Walt whitman were studied.

Can you give me a couple of US poets from the same time frame as Darwish that use a "classical style" and what exactly would that be?

Would you call Walt Whitman a writer of the "classical style" vs the "vernacular" based on the time he lived in? What is classical, classicist? What about Allan Ginsberg, another of my special friends? "Classical" or more "vernacular".

I can understand Abu Khalil's critique.

]]> By: LeaNder http://mondoweiss.net/2008/08/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html/comment-page-1#comment-54630 LeaNder Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/08/12/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html#comment-54630 <p>Hmm?? sorry, no time to hang around here actually.</p> <p>But <b>your</b> above should be <b>our</b> school times.</p> <p>Is the implication of "classic" the eternally surviving elated voice versus the "minor" not so important voice of "the people" that will soon be forgotten? Is this a canon story? "Classical" part of the canon, not classical/"vernacular" of minor quality outside of it?</p> <p>Just asking ...</p> Hmm?? sorry, no time to hang around here actually.

But your above should be our school times.

Is the implication of "classic" the eternally surviving elated voice versus the "minor" not so important voice of "the people" that will soon be forgotten? Is this a canon story? "Classical" part of the canon, not classical/"vernacular" of minor quality outside of it?

Just asking …

]]> By: LeaNder http://mondoweiss.net/2008/08/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html/comment-page-1#comment-54631 LeaNder Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/08/12/here-lie-a-murderer-and-the-murdered-sleeping-in-one-hole-mahmoud-darwish-remembered-by-two-arabic-speakers.html#comment-54631 <p>Hmmm? I reread it.</p> <p>I think this made me angry: his family: <i><b>sneaked</b> back across the border into Israel</i></p> <p> <a href="http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/sneak;_ylt=Ah9QrIburOXwMJG5Yd_4K7ysgMMF" rel="nofollow">ETYMOLOGY</a>:<br /> Probably akin to Middle English sniken, to creep, from Old English sncan. </p> <p>Maybe I feel the old <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake#Symbolism" rel="nofollow">devil/evil symbolism</a> of the snake lurking behind the surface.</p> Hmmm? I reread it.

I think this made me angry: his family: sneaked back across the border into Israel

ETYMOLOGY:
Probably akin to Middle English sniken, to creep, from Old English sncan.

Maybe I feel the old devil/evil symbolism of the snake lurking behind the surface.

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