Comments on: ‘The Occupation Victimizes Both Peoples.’ Yes, But Not Equally

By: JamieSW

JamieSW — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Yeah, this is the key quote: "he’s as much of a victim as anybody else". This is plainly untrue, and judging from Fleshler's comments here my guess is that he didn't really mean it to come out that way.

By: otto

otto — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

"Apartheid coarsens and brutalizes both peoples".

By: Duscany

Duscany — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

I also find it hard to sympathize with people who worry about the mental anguish suffered by IDF soldiers when they have to break some bones at checkpoints. How come they never worry about the mental anguish of the people with the broken bones?

By: Dan Fleshler

Dan Fleshler — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Thanks, JamieSW. It was, I see now, a very stupid phrase to use, because it did imply that the level of victimization was comparable. I didn't believe that then and I don't believe it now. As I noted in a recent comment, there is obviously an assymetry of power and an assymetry of suffering. But I do stand by the assertion that Israelis are coarsened and (morally) brutalized by the occupation.

By: syvanen

syvanen — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Schindler's list describes quite nicely the torments of the German camp commandant. Somehow, you are not supposed to feel sorry for him.

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

What I don't get is why you would take that single phrase from Dan's speech, that was obviously not the emphasis of his comments, and inflate it to mean that Dan is some insensitive racist fool.

By: Eva Smagacz

Eva Smagacz — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

There is an organisation of retired IDF soldiers, who discuss these exact issues, based on their own experiences. They are conducting tours to Hebron, and have been attacked by a settler mob.

The breakdown of rule of law, and it's replacement by the rule of whim in Occupied Palestinian Territories is heartbreaking to see.

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp

Please note, some of the stories are really harrowing to listen to.

By: otto

otto — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

The overemphasis on the suffering and the moral anguish of the coloniser and military occupier is in fact a repeated trope in zionist discourse and deserves exactly the disparaging treatment that Weiss is handing out here.

A particular emphasis on the way that Israelis are coarsened and (morally) brutalized by the occupation is a pointer towards jewish chauvinism if it is not matched by a similar emphasis on the way that e.g. South African whites or the Pieds Noirs were similarly brutalised and coarsened. If it is part of a more general overconcern for the brutalization of the colonizer and other perpetrators, as opposed to their victims, it would be a very rare moral sense indeed.

By: peters

peters — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

the tasteless equation of the brutalization of victim and perpetrator is another excuse to keep doing it. fleshler's comments are very clear – he is equating the two, unfortunately he cannot get away from the tape. it may also be , however , a cover. a cover for his reputation among jews who sympathize with israel. it would be nice if there were more jews who were as forthright as phil, but we should be happy for the temporizers, the ones who don't want to be caught on the wrong side of history, yet don't want their career to end.

By: Jacqueline_Hyde

Jacqueline_Hyde — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

The prosecution takes the defendant's side
Whenever a policeman is tried.