Richard Witty made a very important point to me the other day. He said that he wished that Tzipi Livni had been able to forge a coalition with the more-western-oriented of the Arab parties in the Knesset. But she refused. She wanted her coalition to be Kadima-Labour-Shas: 60 of the 120 members of Knesset. From AFP:
"In theory, Livni can form a minority government with less than 60
seats from the 120 in the Knesset but she would need the support of
Arab MPs, something that part of Kadima opposes," Gideon Doron,
political science analyst at Tel Aviv University, told AFP.
"The
Shas party remains the key to the formation of a government, but this
party is itself split between the wish to retain power and sympathies
of its base for Benjamin Netanyahu," he said, referring to the leader
of the right-wing Likud party….
And on Friday Shas said it had failed to secure two key requirements [promises from Livni]
– increased family allowances and a guarantee that the future of
occupied east Jerusalem would not be negotiated in peace talks with the
Palestinians.
Under such conditions, it said, "we cannot take part in a Livni government."
Wait– if Israel is really a democracy, then how come the Arab votes aren't "key." Why is only rightwing Shas "key"? Arabs just don't count when it's crunchtime, that's why.
I made the same point a few months back when talking about Ehud Barak's pre-Camp David coalition in 1999. Barak could have made a government with 10 Arab Knesset members. "[B]ut the new prime minister was loath to induct them [Arabs] into his coalition and make it dependent on Arab consent," Benny Morris relates in Righteous Victims. Maybe that coalition would have been good for the world!
This isn't trivial. This goes to the heart of a definition of democracy and to Israel's future. If every vote counts, then it counts, and sometimes it gets to be the swing vote. But the Arabs can't be said to have real parliamentary power in Israel, because of the refusal by Jewish parties to allow them to be a swing vote. The Israeli center-left is granting more power to colonialist, one-Jerusalem Netanyahu. Why isn't this a scandal? Why don't American Jews, so included in our country, not to mention American politicians, urge the Israelis to make a government of all their citizens? This isn't racism? This isn't as bad as the Shi'a and Sunni in Iraq?Am I missing something?
Because maybe if Kadima included the Arab parties in the coalition, that would actually lead the way to a two-state solution. Who really wants it?
P.S. Steve F often tells me that polls show that Palestinian Arabs far prefer life under Israeli rule than in a neighboring Arab state. Anybody know about this?
because israel is to the arabs what the polish ghetto was to the polish jew.
but dont tell the jews here that, they think that its valhalla.
Because Arabs in Israel are a security threat and advocates for the dissolution of the state
Subjects close to the heart of Phil and his merry band of storm troopers I know. but other Jews, unlike Phil aren't rooting for a second holocaust
This is one of the primary reasons that we can say that Israel is NOT a democracy. I cite this example, amoung others, whenever someone says that Israel is the only democracy in the Mid East.
The question to ask Israel's Arabs isn't whether they would rather live as second-class citizens in Israel or under neighboring regimes that aren't even nominally democratic. The question to ask is whether they would prefer to live as second-class citizens or as equal citizens in the country where they have citizenship and which claims to be a democracy.
Equal citizenship comes with equal obligations. They don't contribute to national defense and in fact are a threat. They are tremendous tax evaders and are most of the crime rate. And they suck the lifes blood out of the social welfare net.
If a party is in a coalition and had a minister entrusted with state secrets then there has to be some assurance that they won't turn over said secrets to an enemy state. Even the most anti-semitic among you has to admit that in the case of Israeli Arabs none of that holds true
To find themselves under jurisdiction of another Arab country the Palestinians would have to "ethnically clense" themselves from their ancestral land. So they "prefer" to be second class citizens of Israel and they "prefer" to be under Israeli occupation.
I would warrant a guess that most Poles would prefer to be enslaved in Poland under German occupation than to be "free" in Madagascar.
Most of the Israeli-Arab political parties, with the exception of Hadash, which is mixed Arab-Jewish, generally only pay enough lip service to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state" in order to be allowed to stand for the Knesset. They come out of the political tradition of the DFLP, which is Arab-nationalist and anti-democratic, and the straight-out denial of Zionism is seen in sub-national Arab parties which run at the municipal level only, being unwilling to run for the Knesset in a Jewish state. The chicken-and-egg question is therefore which Israeli-Arab party is secular and Israeli-nationalist enough to rival the Iraqi and Egyptian Communist Party in its blindness to religion, and pursue a mixed Arab-Jewish government. Bear in mind that Jews in government in the Arab countries were traditionalist figures in monarchist governments, at least as far as Egypt is concerned, and no Arab-Israeli party is "establishment" enough to serve in government, as far as they are concerned, all Jews to the right of Hadash can't go to hell or Poland fast enough to please them.
If "Arabness" mattered to the Arab parties more than Jewishness, they would have made common cause with anti-establishment Jews of Arab lands like the Black Panthers, which had all of the characteristics of an Arab party: revolutionary rhetoric and one or two seats in the Knesset.
Well, its like this Eva. If you were Christian you could get through the war. If you were Jewish. Like in Jedwebne, if the Germans didn't get you your Polack neighbors would.
So, who are the candidates? Hadash, 3 seats. NDA, whose previous faction head Azmi Bishara is under indictment for treason? (4 seats). Or Ra'am-Ta'al, an explicitly Islamist party? (4 seats.)
Arab MKs in the govt coalition.: Majali Whbee, Kadima. Out of govt. but still in a "Jewish" party: Rajeb Majadele, Labor.
SOG: "Equal citizenship comes with equal obligations. They don't contribute to national defense and in fact are a threat. They are tremendous tax evaders and are most of the crime rate. And they suck the lifes blood out of the social welfare net."
Change "crime rate" to "white color crime rate," and "social welfare net" to "American cultural and moral cohesiveness," and you've pretty much described the Nation of Zion in the U.S.
Ra'am-Ta'al also has a history of sympathetic meetings with Hamas.
Anyone who attempts to run under a "one man/one vote" platform would be jailed in the Middle East's only democracy. The position is illegal.
"Ra'am-Ta'al also has a history of sympathetic meetings with Hamas."
Good. Hamas is democratically-elected and should be met with and listened to, not labeled a "terrorist organization" by the very sponsors of terror (Israel and U.S.) that it seeks to protect Palestinians from.
good job sword. you and your ilk better hope america remains asleep, but im beginning to believe that the ongoing economic collapse will awaken the american volk from their wealth induced stupor, i doubt they will keep buying the b.s that zionism has been seling them over the years.
Rabbi Amram Blau
The Jewish People are absolutely opposed to any injury against the Arab nation. The Arab nation never harmed the Jewish People until the advent of Zionist nationalism.
zionism is a peddler of untruths to the world and to the jewish people.
a people without a land for a land without a people….
the only democracy in the middle east..
the people of god
indeed.
Hamas to Israel: "Israel will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it." Ra'am-Ta'al are Islamists, which is why they were willing to meet with Hamas and "hallal" enough to survive the encounter.
WHAT HAMAS (AND PALESTINIANS) WANT:
"Our stated aim when we won the election was to effect reform, end corruption and bring economic prosperity to our people. Our sole focus is Palestinian rights and good governance. We now hope to create a climate of peace and tranquillity within our community that will pave the way for an end to internal strife and bring about the release of the British journalist Alan Johnston, whose kidnapping in March by non-Hamas members is a stain on the reputation of the Palestinian people.
We reject attempts to divide Palestine into two parts and to pass Hamas off as an extreme and dangerous force. We continue to believe that there is still a chance to establish a long-term truce. But this will not happen unless the international community fully engages with Hamas.
Any further attempts to marginalize us, starve our people into submission or attack us militarily will prove that the United States and Israeli governments are not genuinely interested in seeing an end to the violence. Dispassionate observers over the next few weeks will be able to make up their own minds as to each side’s true intentions.
Ahmed Yousef is the political adviser to Ismail Haniya, who became the Palestinian prime minister last year."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/20/opinion/20yousef.html?pagewanted=print
"Israel will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it."
Actually, the exact passage from the Charter, written in 1988, is this:
"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others."
In other words, Israel is destroying us and nobody is doing anything about it, so we have to defend ourselves now just as we have defended ourselves against aggressors in the past.
Of course, that was 1988. For more recent information on Hamas and its positions, continue reading below. It will be readily apparent that Hamas has been more than willing to negotiate and to accept Israel, but Israel and the U.S. have subverted any chance of negotiations every time. This is because Israel and its Zionists handlers don't want peace with Palestinians, rather they wish to continue Israeli expansion. Thus, folks such as Richard Witty will continue to call for a "two-state solution" when in fact no such solution is possible given the realities on the ground. They know this, but avoid any meaningful discussion about it, because they could really care less about a "two-state solution" or any solution at all – status quo is just fine with them.
All that tells me is that you support Hamas in its short-term as well as in its eventual goals. So I can't really talk "to" you either, but I gave an explanation that answered Phil's question: no Israeli-Arab party is Israeli enough to sit in a government with Israeli-Jews, because most of them are Arab-nationalists.
There is no "loyal opposition" party i.e. Arab PARTIES who would join a Kadima or Labor or Shas or Meretz govt. in coalition. There are only individual Arab MKs who serve as part of Kadima or Labor, and the disloyal opposition, i.e. Palestine-in-place-of-Israel parties that the leftist, interventionist Supreme Court still allows to stand for Knesset anyway.
The only Hamasnik I ever met told me everything I needed to know when I stared into his eyes right before he martyred himself.
Israel can't be and isn't a democracy because it is a Jewish state.
I would think this is obvious to all.
You can't be a country operating as a religious or as an ethnic state and government with the declared intent and practice of maintaining a religous or ethnic maority and call yourself a democracy.
That is the total opposite of a democracy.
And no the holocuast doesn't entitle the jews to any exception to the definition of democracy.
"And no the holocuast doesn't entitle the jews to any exception to the definition of democracy."
No, it doesn't, and it shouldn't be used as an excuse for Zionist brutality either, being that the Zionist agenda was established in the 1800's.
SOG:
"Equal citizenship comes with equal obligations. They don't contribute to national defense and in fact are a threat. They are tremendous tax evaders and are most of the crime rate. And they suck the lifes blood out of the social welfare net."
This might also describe American Jews who've succeeded in bringing 9-11 to America, also the 800 billion dollars down the drain in Iraq, and so much of the consequent failure of the American economy. People like John Bucksbaum(Tom Friedman's brother in law), Sam Israel, Richard Fuld…ad nauseum have reaped great benefit from shafting the unsuspecting elements of American Society. Don't be surprised if they find their next vocations right next to Jonathan Pollard…another one of SOG's heroes.
More on Hamas, from an interview with Dr. Ahmed Yousef, senior advisor to Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, the leader of the Hamas government in Gaza, speaking to The Electronic Intifada's Gaza Strip correspondent Rami Almeghari:
RA: Some people have claimed that Hamas is trying to establish an Islamic emirate and is about to impose Sharia law in the territories under its control. Is this true?
AY: It's totally false, and from the time of the Hamas takeover of Gaza I don't think any Palestinian observed any change in daily life. This claim is used just for propaganda to satisfy Israel and maybe some of the American agenda. We live the same life here, and we are facing the same problems with sanctions, occupation and isolation. Nothing has changed. It is the same life. People can wear a head scarf or not wear it and nobody will force anyone to abide by Islamic law. Life here is very democratic and we hope to stay like this.
I am sure that the people who started talking about these things needed to satisfy some of the stereotypes in the minds of some western governments to discredit Hamas and keep up the pressure and sanctions in order to squeeze us into a corner. I don't think this propaganda succeeded because one thing is different from the past — everyone who came here saw that Hamas was able to enhance the security and safety of the people of Gaza.
RA: How would you describe the experience of the Islamists in government here, particularly under continued Israeli occupation and the rejection of the Islamist movement by nearby countries?
AY: People were stunned by the majority won by the Islamists in the elections. No one was expecting that. Even in Israeli elections no party can win such a percentage. Hamas did it because people were saying this is a movement that is doing good things to help the Palestinian national cause and people trust them and think they are not corrupt. It's something amazing that we could have very free, fair and transparent elections and many people said the election held in Palestine was the best among all Arab countries.
RA: How have the Israeli blockade of Gaza and the international boycott of Hamas impacted Hamas' rule?
AY: Nobody expected that Hamas could withstand this kind of siege, sanctions and isolation. Maybe some people tried to sell the idea that in three months Hamas would fail, would collapse. Just keep putting pressure on them and they will buckle. Fortunately Hamas proved their steadfastness to the people of the world. This is because the who people who supported Hamas still give their backing to this government because people believe Hamas is not corrupt and is trying to serve the highest Palestinian national interest. This is why this government did not collapse despite the siege and the continuous Israeli incursions and aggression against us here and in the West Bank. We have proved we can stand and challenge and no one can twist our arms in a way that does not serve our national interest.
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m48323&hd=&size=1&l=e
HAMAS' VIEWS ON THE FUTURE:
RA: Hamas has long called for a long-term truce with Israel, an offer that Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Israel have rejected already. Is there a possibility that Hamas would consider other options?
AY: We still stick to our political vision which is based on the truce or long-term ceasefire of five, ten or twenty years if Israel accepts to withdraw to the pre-1967 border. This remains our vision of the basis for a peaceful settlement of the conflict.
RA: Abbas argues that a long-term truce will give Israel a chance to reoccupy the Palestinian territories. How do you view this?
AY: I don't think that Abbas understands fully what we mean by a truce. The truce means that the Israelis will withdraw in a specified period, maybe six months, from all the occupied Palestinian territories, and they can get a guarantee for security for these ten or twenty years. We think this might set the stage for confidence building. After twenty years maybe the new generation of Palestinians will have different views for how to settle the conflict.
When you do not have bloodshed maybe that would be a good time to talk about peace, but now while the cycle of death continues and we have daily funerals; I do not think this is a good time to talk about a full peaceful settlement. So we need to have time to heal from the injuries and from the bad memories of bloodshed between Muslims and Jews, between Palestinians and Jews. And after that this new generation will have its own political vision about how to settle the conflict maybe through a binational state or a one-state solution. I am sure they are going to come up with different proposals. But today this is what we can offer. A hudna — twenty years of peace with the Palestinians having their own independent and free state on the pre-1967 borders.
RA: There is a lot of talk about the death of the two-state solution and increased activism calling for a one-state solution as in South Africa. How does Hamas relate to these discussions and what are the current trends in thinking about a long-term solution?
AY: It sounds good to talk about a one-state solution but this will be considered when the two-state solution fails. However, so far we are sticking to our position about a long-term truce. South Africa is a good model for coexistence, reconciliation and atonement. Until now we are still not addressing this issue. But in the future if the world's expectation of a viable independent Palestinian state fails because of expansionist Israeli policies — already Israel has confiscated and annexed 50 percent of the land in the West Bank — people will come to this issue and we will address it.
RA: Who does Hamas look to as a political model from other struggles in history?
AY: Of course there is Nelson Mandela, and we do look to non-Muslim and non-Arab countries as models. For example, Michael Collins in Ireland [Editor: Collins was one of the key leaders in Ireland's independence struggle]. I do believe that Hamas also looks at Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey as a good model as well. We are not Taliban, we are Erdogan.
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m48323&hd=&size=1&l=e
Euro Sabra's descriptions of current Arab participation in Israeli government, is informative and important.
Any predictions of the future are like all predictions, speculative. Things can go multiple ways.
Skillful politics creates paths, rather than forces into corners.
Higgins,
What was the "good reason" that Hamas shelled Israeli civilians within the green line for five years?
Richard,
Were those all confirmed Hamas shellings, or did Israel sneak some false flag ops in there for good measure, as they are known to do? What is the "good reason" that Israel continues to kill innocent Palestinians on a daily basis? Who is the oppressor in this scenario and who is the oppressed? You don't honestly believe that Hamas fights just for kicks, now do you? They are reacting to Israeli brutality and oppression. How would you act in their situation?
Israel is the much, much more powerful agent here, and it is using its power brutally and inhumanely. When you realize that, all attempts to demonize Hamas as an aggressor become farcical. It is akin to watching a huge, muscular high school kid repeatedly beat up a five year old, and then admonishing the five year old when he gets a couple shots in every now and then. Ridiculous, and anyone familiar with the facts of the situation won't fall for such nonsense.
As everybody knows, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
Uberstate power (USA) and Superwelfare state power (Israel) vs
a handful of stones.
Higginslads, thanks for the links. The new Hamas interview was particularly good.
Higgins,
You must be very gullible.
"You must be very gullible."
I was gullible when I allowed a Zionized narrative of the world to influence me. Now that I know the truth of the matter, I try to educate others not to be so gullible.
If you want to understand Witty, simply look at his shoulders rather than his hands; he betrays his next move everytime. In a ring, he'd be out in the first round.
"look at his shoulders rather than his hands"
Is that from boxing, Charles?