Comments on: Seliger Is Back on Me Like a Duck on a Junebug

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Please don't urge that the US abandon Israel, Phil, as you seem to be implying.

What did you think of my summary of Obama's position, and its merit?

By: higginslads

higginslads — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Exactly Phil. Good question. Seliger was sure to get the requisite "Jihadi extremists" in there, but nothing about Jewish or Zionist extremists. And of course the usual imagery of a helpless minority is thrown in for good measure. Over a billion Muslims vs, 15 million Jews. Poor little Jewish folk. If one weren't aware of the brutal history of Israel from its founding to the present day, its undeclared nukes, its continued territorial expansion and inhumane policy against the Palestinians which ignores international law, world condemnation (sans U.S. condemnation due to the Lobby and folks like Seliger) and flies in the face of any and all sense of human decency...well, if one weren't aware of this, one might actually feel sorry for the "Jewish people." Oh, that's right: it's Seliger's job, and that of the Zionists, to keep people in the dark about such matters. Nevermind, he's right on cue.

By: LeaNder

LeaNder — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

higginslad, I think in that context the numbers do not suggest "the usual imagery of a helpless minority" but rather sanity.

Obviously there is a difference between Ralph Seliger and Mr. Faster Please, Ledeen & friends.

By: anonymoose

anonymoose — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

"There are well over one billion Muslims in the world and a mere 15 million Jews."

LMAO!

The elite of those 15 million Jews are playing "let's you and him fight" with the Muslim world and America.

"But the concept of a "Jewish state" is meant to refer to the Jewish people and not to a religion."

"Israel is not a theocratic state in the ways that Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and even Iraq and Afghanistan (among others) are explicitly Islamic."

The above two statements are an amazing display of gymnastics. How do you hold two opposing thoughts at once?

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Moose,
Both statements are true, is how I can hold them both in my consciousness.

By: Ralph Seliger

Ralph Seliger — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Altho 'Moose' is not innocent in asking this question, it is important to understand that the Jewish people have a history that goes back about 3,000 years, if not longer. The fact that Jews are also associated with a religion called Judaism, which many Jews neither believe in nor practice (while many other practice in a variety of denominations and ways) is a vestige of the fact that nations in classical ancient times each practiced their own unique religion. So being Jewish is both a religious category and an ethnic or cultural identification and not all Jews believe in the religion.

By: higginslads

higginslads — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Ralph, there is a question on the table:

"Has Israel, the Jewish state, played any part in the process of producing religious war in the Middle East?"

Your response, please.

By: higginslads

higginslads — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

"So being Jewish is both a religious category and an ethnic or cultural identification and not all Jews believe in the religion."

Nor, I would add, do all Jews depend upon the state of Israel or the Zionist project for a sense of self-identity. And, as we know from much scholarship, most notably Shlomo Sand's recent Israeli bestseller, the idea of a "Jewish nation" is largely an invention of the past 100 or so years, and the majority of modern Jews who self-identify as such have no historical connection to the land called Israel. In fact, Palestinians are more "Jewish" in that respect than the people who are now slaughtering them under the guise of preserving their "Jewishness."

"It is not taught in Israeli schools but most of the early Zionist leaders, including David Ben Gurion [Israel's first prime minister], believed that the Palestinians were the descendants of the area's original Jews. They believed the Jews had later converted to Islam."

By: Ralph Seliger

Ralph Seliger — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Higginslads: I've already answered this question directly to Phil: "Of course Israel has, by its policies in expanding settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and in not consistently working for peace and coexistence."

Some ancient Hebrews may well be present-day Arabs. But we Jews also believe that most of us have a direct ancient link with the Land of Israel. One does not rule out the other, nor does the tendencious work of a "scholar" or best-selling author (whom I've never heard of). The idea of the Jewish people is very old; the notion of reconstituting the Jewish nation as a sovereign community is little more than a century old.

By: higginslads

higginslads — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Thank you Ralph. I wasn't aware you had answered Phil directly. When you say "We Jews," who do you mean? Who are you speaking for?