The Australian anti-Zionist, and Jewish atheist Antony Loewenstein, is visiting the States. He talked at Harvard last week. Told this anecdote:
I met a group of influential left-oriented Jews in Melbourne last year. They wanted to engage with me and discuss privately my ideas. It was a depressing affair, however, as one after the other detailed their “pain” and “trauma” over the occupation, expressed dedication to a two-state solution and pledged to work towards its implementation. Publicly, with a few notable exceptions, they refused to condemn Israel’s gross violations of human rights. It was simply a bridge too far. Talking passionately amongst themselves may have made them feel good but the situation in the Middle East requires more than hand-wringing. A fear of societal exclusion held these people back while the Palestinians suffered in silence.
Loewenstein is reflecting the problem that I have with the idea of dialogue. How much information do people need? They get the information again and again, about Palestinian human rights abuses, and they do nothing; still, they want to have dialogue about it. Zach Wales, a former Columbia student, once explained this to me--that these people seek a private means of atoning, and doing nothing, even as they gather "more information." (In the information age, that's what we always need!)
It is for a similar reason that I said the other day that I do not think that progressives on this issue should truck with the Jewish community. Richard Witty promptly said it was like shunning the U.S. government. The U.S. government is powerful, and official. The Jewish community tends to be locked into denial. It's just not very useful to be spending a lot of time working with that community when you could be building bridges elsewhere. Though I'm not for shunning; I feel engaged with the Jewish community. But I don't particularly wish to talk about this stuff with my Jewish friends and relations.
Reading the above thoughts of Phil Weiss I reflected on killings of Jews in Poland during the second World War:
How much Polish people knew?
And did they yelp with glee as Sword of Gideon would have it, or did they do what Phil Weiss describes in his post, and similar to what my family described: The huddled together in small groups repeating the stories in the endless cycle of moral horror, but would lie their lives resisting the Germans to liberate Poland, and not rush in defence of the Jews.
Are we looking at similar, human phenomenon? Is this passive soaking up of horrors without lifting of a finger to actually make a difference what allowed Germany to become Nazis, and allowed Nazis to become genocidal killers?
Have Jews just acquired the answer why Holocaust happened in the "most civilized, most liberal, country" of Europe?
Am I complicit in crimes against the Palestinians?
Now, Phil, circle back to your deduction that the US Government
establishment is as much Jewish as not (despite the 2% physical demography), and the not depends on Jewish money to stay at the helm.
Eva, as you know, Poland was divided up between HItler and Stalin.
Is Israel divided up so?
Duel loyalties lead to duel identities. One knows right from wrong, the other refuses to make the right choice, because it is inconvenient to "group interest" (group interest being defined as stubbornly grasping to any group advantage, and granting no quarter, irregardless of "right or wrong", with right or wrong further being defined as completely subjective. It's all very lawyerly.)
Most Jews don't know, because they've ONLY been confronted, rather than educated/informed.
And, the liberal ones that do know, humbly know that they only know a sliver, and therefore don't desire to undertake to guess wrong with literally dire consequences.
Your confusion on your position and goal, is a disaster Phil.
If you are a solid advocate for a civil single state, then work for it, in the mature way that it might actually occur (peaceably). (By building inter-community relations, RATHER than judgemental and presumptious agitation.)
You do know that I think you are actually negligent in making this issue such a focus of yours, and not reading on multiple perspectives on the history, currently (not your childhood memory of Exodus).
And, I think you are negligent in ignoring the chain of relationships that leads to inhumane terror targeting Jews, as in the Habad House in Mumbai. Those Jews were NOT harming anyone, and you and others know it well.
Those terror incidents are of monsters that are seen. They hunger for Jewish blood.
@Ed,
You said: "MW, your religion isn’t interested in the benefit of all humanity. It’s not interested in making the world a better place, despite its "tikkun olam" subterfuge. It’s interested in it’s own self-interest, its own tribe's well being …" at link to philipweiss.org
All across the US, Jewish communities take part in an annual event called "Mitzvah Day" which is where synagogues and Jewish Day/Sunday Schools organize their congregants and students to participate in good deeds. The are many different things we do. My particular favorite is to volunteer at "Our Daily Bread", a catholic soup kitchen.
Do you still hold the belief that "[my] religion isn’t interested in the benefit of all humanity"?
Remember, this is nation wide, not just my synagogue. Does your religious community hold a similar nationwide annual event? Of course one shouldn't just do it once a year but "Mitzvah Day's" benefits last all year and compels us to do it more often.
"Mitzvah" means commandment but our interpretations teach us to go beyond that to make it mean "good-deeds". A miss translation but when we interpret Tanakh as a whole, we are compelled to help the stranger (read gentile).
In my Jewish High School, we also took part of a program called BLUES, a Black & Jewish student get together for the sake of learning and what ever. My greater community has many blacks and Jews. On our trip to Israel we also volunteered at a center for kids from troubled homes which included Jewish and Arab kids. We also also had a one day program at a Bedouin city similar to "BLUES".
So I ask you again, do you still think my religion only cares about its own self interest? Do you still think that Judaism isn't interested in the benefit of all of humanity? I'll let you ponder.
One more thing. When a local church burned down last winter, who's House of Worship took those congregants in and let them use their space for services? It was the synagogue I belong to. Not another church, but a synagogue. They still have their services at my synagogue when our kids go to Sunday School.
I think we are missing the point.
This is not meant to be call for more research or better chosen words as Richard is suggesting. Nor is it meant to be an auction of which religion is better in organizing occasional good deeds as Michael's W post is suggesting.
The question is whether we are complicit in horrors of the Palestinian Occupation by sitting on our hands and choosing useless and ineffectual activities that are designed to make us feel better, but do absolutely nothing concrete to help starving, sick, humiliated and assaulted.
Our humanity is measured by our actions, not our hand-wringing.
And, I think you are negligent in ignoring the chain of relationships that leads to inhumane terror targeting Jews, as in the Habad House in Mumbai.
Richard, stop with the wrist-to-forehead action over-dramatizing that Jews were targeted specifically. They weren't. It was "white people" who were targeted: Americans and Brits. The people living in the flat below the floor that the terrorists were on in the Chabad House got it because they tried to leave. And this was observed by Indians in flats across the street reporting to the Indian Press. If they were targeting Jews, why was it 5 our of 195 killed?
Read The Daily Mail remarkable article about the remaining terrorist who played dead and was 'discovered' alive in the ambulance.
link to dailymail.co.uk
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(The quote has changed between yesterday and today. Yesterday they quoted the terrorist directly. Today it's a statement.)
According to the surviving terrorist, they targeted the Jews, Israeli and those with American or dual citizenship, to bring attention to the plight of the Palestinians. Just as the 9/11 commission determined (before redacting for final form) that those terrorists were moved to retaliate against American troops on sacred land and the plight of the palestinians, the India 9/11 wanna be that just traspired was motivated by both the Indian-Pakistan bone of turf contention AND the plight of the palestinians.
This wedded issue (P v I) is not going to go away, and it is
a constant resource for growing new terrorists.
One day the American masses will get it.
Too bad that will probably take WW3 (Iran).
Witty's son will of course join the IDF at the crucial point.
And you average Americans here, and your sons and daughters?
“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.” Moshe Dayan: Haaretz, April 4, 1969. (noted from the web, Dayan was probably quoting Ben Gurion from the 'The Jewish Paradox')
The terror itself is what convinces.
The terrorists themselves were the greatest revivers of the relevance of neo-conservatism, not letting it wither.
That is blowback.
zionist hunger for palestinian blood or muslim fundamentalist blood.
and now the americans are learning your wayward ways…
humanbeings we are all.
Why is it that so many Americans, with sufficient information about human rights abuses in Israel and the occupied areas, feel conflicted about what exactly to do? If you think it's jewish media control you're just indulging in your own fantasies.
Why are there not more Americans up in Arms over China's role in Sudan and atrocities in Darfur?
http://www.squidoo.com/africaawareness
If peer pressure motivates people's behavior, as it seems to, more than the revelation of immorality does, then the supporters of immorality should be shunned until they withdraw their support of it. When Israel enforces a blockade of Gaza or bombs Beirut, the EU, Asia and the rest of the world should boycott the US and Israel. Shunning on a personal level is much more difficult, but at least the support of immorality could be condemned and recognized as a flaw.
Yeah, there's two types of your zionists: your frankly bigoted fire-breathers like SoG, and your hand-wringers like Michael W eager to vaunt his multi-cultural cred.
The fire-breathers have the virtue of wanting to deal with the Palestinians quickly and with extreme prejudice. The hand-wringers prefer to prolong the agony awash in alligator tears while the lives of the Palestinians slowly wink out.
The conclusion is the same: facts on the ground.
Jacqueline_Hyde sums it up well in the two types of zionist.
The AGRESSIVES like SOG and the PASSIVE agressives like witty.
However both types can only be handled one way…be running them over, shouting them down and shutting them out.
You can't discuss with the jews, the agressive or the passive agressive. Because neither one of them deal in truth or reality.
The passives are even worse in their whining pitiful parsing and denial.
Therefore you either confront them or ignore them.
As I have long said, Israel should be treated the same way. You either get in their face and back them down or totally ignore them proceed to do what needs to be done whine they whine and bluster.
I see in the news that a third ship with aid for Gaza is headed there now.
The first two ships to break the Israeli naval blockade of Gaza was a group of private citizens, American, French and British, including Tony Blair's sister who financed the lease of the ship and the aid.
The ship now approaching is from the government of Libya. Will be interesting to see what Israel does, if anything.
They would be fools to assault a legally registered ship entering Gaza from international waters….but then Israelis are fools afterall.
This is how the Palestine issue will be pushed to a close. Not by the US gov and Israel gov and more eternal talky talky stally stally.
But by private groups and other nations who being beyond fed up, give the Israelis the royal flying fuck you and proceed with their own plans to help Palestine.
There is a group in the US with plans to finance a converted US navy ship to sail into Gaza..flying the American Flag. They plan to not only be carrying aid but to take some Gaza students out with them.
It will be very, very interesting to see if the Israelis assault an US registered private ship loaded with Americans. Firing on a ship is not the same thing as the ususal Israeli tactics at their land blockades of snipering UN personnel, peace activist and killing press personnel. It would be a whole different ballgame…one that could not in any be covered as another one of those famous Israeli "accidents".
If it were not for the fact that people might be killed I would love to see Israelis do something that stupid. With the mood the American public is in it would be the last thing the Israelis ever did.
If the lives of the Palestinians are slowly being "winked out", don't even know what that means. How come they breed like cock roaches. And if Gaza is being starved to death how come they look remarkably healthy on TV. With their 22 kids a piece.
The problem most jews today face vis-à-vis Israel is cognitive dissonance
In many ways the same problems the Germans had during WW ll.
What happens to pleople when their set of believes is proven wrong, maybe even worse-evil? The reactions are always the same..The defence mechanisms kicks in, and the bigger the gap between their Illusions and the reality is, the harder will their defence be.
Denial, Repression, and Suppression
Displacement and Sublimation
Projection and Intellectualization
Rationalization
Regression
As a result of this will any attempt to convince adult zionists of their errors be futile. What we must do is to educate the young ones. Teach them that it's ok to support Israel and still disagree with the way the Palestinians are treated
@JH: "The hand-wringers prefer to prolong the agony awash in alligator tears while the lives of the Palestinians slowly wink out."
I have come to believe there are two versions of modern organized Judaism, with two distinct identities: the "professions of tolerance and inclusiveness" version, practiced where organized Jewry is in the minority, and then the authentic Zionist version, practiced where it is in the majority, or in the cat-bird seat. (This is not to say that no Jews have authentically internalized the tolerance and inclusiveness version, because clearly some have. But they are simply unaware that they aren’t being authentic Jews by the modern definition of organized Judaism.)
The reason I believe the Zionist version is the real deal is because Israel is the one place where organized Jewry can show its real faces, be itself, "let it all hang out," without fear of retribution from a hostile majority. Zionism is the outcome.
I don’t begrudge organized Jewry its essence — there are plenty of tribes as bad or worse. But what makes it dangerous is the ability of its worldwide diaspora incarnation to delude itself and successfully deceive others about its intentions and essence even as its authentic Zionist incarnation repeatedly demonstrates its hostility toward non Jews, and its malign agenda.
The whole phenomenon reminds me of Communism’s ability to “deceive” Western socialists, left-liberals and even some Christians and conservatives about its true nature even as it was murdering millions in the East. Of course, many socialists and left-liberals weren’t really deceived at all, they were just stalling to buy time, in conjunction with the Communist agenda. I fear many “hand-wringers” (both Jewish Zionists and their non-Jewish Zionist allies, which includes most insiders of the contemporary US political establishment) may be engaged in a similar play-acting subterfuge as well.
Hey Ed,
I'd like you to respond to my response to you when you said that my "religion isn’t interested in the benefit of all humanity. It’s not interested in making the world a better place, despite its "tikkun olam" subterfuge. It’s interested in it’s own self-interest, its own tribe's well being …"
My response is on this page.
@JH: "there's two types of your zionists: your frankly bigoted fire-breathers like SoG, and your hand-wringers like Michael W eager to vaunt his multi-cultural cred."
It also occurs to me that ideological left-liberals and socialists (dedicated Obama-supporter types and the Democrat establishment) vaunt their "multi-cultural cred" for reasons similar to "liberal" diaspora Zionists: to hide their larger, sinister agenda. Subversive, modern diaspora Jewry have historically been effective collaborators with subversive socialists, it's just that now Zionism has driven a wedge between them. None of that changes each's subversive, hostile character or agenda.
I despise, and could never trust, "Christian" Zionists and Bush-conservatives because of their collaboration with Zionism, and I frankly don't see how well-intentioned, authentic liberals could ever trust left-liberals or socialists who have a long history of collaborating with trenchant Zionists, including, now, Barack Obama.
@ Michael W:
Two words: Cosmic Justice.
Go back to practicing it, and believing in it, and organized Judaism might regain its righteousness. In my opinion, this will necessitate dumping the Talmud, which appears to be corrupted modern organized Judaism's moral operating manual. But that's for you all to work out.
@Ed
You didn't address the issue at hand.
How can you still think Judaism is selfish after I told about Mitzvah Day? Your humility astounds me.
One can not just judge one's religion by scripture. Scripture can be interpreted many ways. If you would look into your own Scripture once in a while, I'm sure you'll find other will interpret it differently. One should judge an individual by his actions. Not an entire community by an individual's actions. For example, I don't think you would approve of the Inquisitors. There were still good Christians. If one American Protestant commits a murder, in the name of religion or not (killing abortion clinic employees), does that mean that all Protestants are evil/bad?
Also, the Talmud is a book of discussions. If one would make a collection of academic peer review documents and you didn't like some of what of the authors of some of the papers in this collection say, would you drop that whole collection?
One can not create a perfect moral code all at once. It's an evolution. Are you saying we shouldn't change our moral code over time?
Dedicated Obama-supporter types and the Democrat establishment are not ideological left-liberals and socialists. Dedicated Obama-supporter types, and the Democratic leadership, including Obama, resemble moderate Republicans. Left-liberals and socialists were the first people to turn against the US subsidy of Israeli military aggression. They may have chosen to support the lesser evil in the recent national election, and that decision may have been wrong, but they are the only voices objecting to US military and economic aid to Israel.
@Tommy: "Left-liberals and socialists were the first people to turn against the US subsidy of Israeli military aggression."
Wrong. Libertarians and paleocon conservatives like Pat Buchanan were way out in front of socialists and left-liberals on the Zionist problem because they recognized socialists, left-liberals and Zionists all subscribe to the same adolescent code of blind rebellion and destruction. As the equally-stunted baby boomers like GW Bush (who never really grew up) moved into "conservative" and "Christian" ranks, they brought with them their destructive rebellion mentality instead of acclimating into authentic conservatism and Christianity, hence their attraction to Trotskyite Neoconservatism. "Creative destruction" money worshipping corporatists are also on board the statist-socialist scorched earth ideology, because they see it as a partnership with the State in opening up new markets. It’s a classic Hegelian dialectic, where opposing forces have united and conjoined.
So what we are left with is a coalition of power-centralizing, politically correct, authoritarian statists, corporatists, left-liberal socialists and Zionists vs. power diffusing, decentralizing paleocons, libertarians, Christians and classic (authentic) liberals. Politically correct left-liberals who don't know, understand or appreciate anything about classic liberalism are too brainwashed to realize they're part of the problem.