Comments on: Frum: Nakba Was Bad Because It Fell Below Israelis’ High Standards of Behavior

By: otto

otto — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

If you just keep replacing the expression "Zionism" with "Jewish Colonialism", it becomes clear that this sort of ethnic cleansing and bigotry was an intrinsic part of the project all along. Futhermore, justifying the Nakba and what we might call Nakba-related-programme-activities is the central feature of both Israeli political life and jewish activism outside israel.

The disorientating fact is that all this colonialism, racism, and ethnic cleansing is interpreted through the lens of intense ethnic self-congratulation on 'liberal' grounds. But it's the liberal self-congratulation of jewish colonialiam which is its (somewhat) bizarre aspect, not the actual rape of the indigenous population. The standards that the Israelis expected of themselves were the Nakba. They still do expect and celebrate those standards.

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

I expect that the Arab population of Jaffa following 1948, ended up MUCH higher than your 4,000-5,000 estimate.

When I visited Israel in 1968, Jaffa was primarily an Arab city. (but included among the Jewish population mostly "Arab Jews" that you referred to in an earlier post).

Are you objecting to Frum's using Israeli ethical inquiry as the problem with his statement, or that the ethical behavior was quantitatively too low?

In general, are you trying to restore your focus onto the "forest", or have you permanently determined to stay only on the "trees".

By: roGER

roGER — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

I doubt Frum has even read the book closely.

His assertion that "Arab leaders and state broadcasters did indeed encourage local inhabitants to flee" is a conclusion that Morris' work explictly rejects.

Morris and the other 'new historians' have shown that while in a few local cases Palestinains were urged to evacuate a village or two prior to combat, the overwhelming majority left as a result of anxiety and panic caused by atrocities committed by Israeli forces.

By: ifnotnowwhen

ifnotnowwhen — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

RE: " I expect that the Arab population of Jaffa following 1948, ended up MUCH higher than your 4,000-5,000 estimate."-Witty

"Most of the well-heeled Arab population that could afford to run, did," recounts Williams, leaving only about 3,000 people in Jaffa." link to jpost.com

By: Jacqueline_Hyde

Jacqueline_Hyde — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

By what stretch of the imagination does Frum "write well"? "instrumentalities of war" The guy's another Witty.

By: ifnotnowwhen

ifnotnowwhen — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Nothing like stirring up the pot. The equation of 1938-9 with the
21st Century constellation is something Joe Goebbels would admire. Too bad Americans are so ignorant.

By: J. Otto Pohl

J. Otto Pohl — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

The other Otto is right. What makes supporters of Zionism so frustrating is the constant defense of the crimes from a "liberal" point of view. Rather than a proper triumphal colonial narrative like the British had, the Zionists have a wierd inverted narrative of being constant victims. No self respecting European colonial empire ever behaved in such a whiny and unmanly fashion. It is down right pathetic when one compares the official narrative with the real history of Palestine. It would be like British soldiers complaining of being unfairly attacked by unarmed Indian women and children. But, it is precisely this narrative of there being no Jewish villians and only Jewish victims in history that has gotten the Zionists support in the US.

By: yudit

yudit — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Jaffa was a predominantly Palestinian city prior to 1948 with about Arab 120.000 residents.
In 1950 there were about 3.400 left.

Today Jaffa has about 56.000 residents the very large majority of whom are Jewish.

However the majority of Jaffa's Arabs live in such neighborhoods as Ajami, Jabaliya and lev yafo.

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

From wikipedia.

"In 1945, Jaffa had a population of 101,580, of whom 53,930 were Muslims, 30,820 were Jews and 16,800 were Christians.[13] The Christians were mostly Greek Orthodox and about one sixth of them were Greek-Catholic. One of the most prominent members of the Arab Christian community was the Arab Orthodox publisher of Filastin, Issa Daoud El-Issa Daoud Isa."

Supplement to a Survey of Palestine (p. 12-13) which was prepared by the British Mandate for the United Nations in 1946-7

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Wikipedia also reports the Ottomans clearing the city in 1917, and the British in the mid-30's.

Not "always there". Not consistent population figures.

The story about the Irgun seems largely accurate though, that they sought to take over (for military or ethnic cleansing purposes is a different question).

Not the simple story presented by either myth.