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	<title>Comments on: PEP, and Why You Don&#8217;t Want to Be PEP</title>
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	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/11/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 03:52:48 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/11/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html/comment-page-1#comment-45750</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/11/19/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html#comment-45750</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;And still the two-state solution is the ONLY viable option.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;NOONE that I&#039;ve ever heard (and I&#039;ve heard a lot) has articulated a viable map of how to get to a single-state solution without gross warfare (and likely resulting in worse condition for Palestinians).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And, NOONE that I&#039;ve ever heard has articulated a strategy (meaning their actions) that will enhance the likelihood that a single state solution occurs.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The only story proposed so far is force of some kind. We&#039;ve had force with the dispossessions in the region, dispossessions of Jews, dispossessions of Palestinians. We&#039;ve had Hezbollah shelling northern Israeli towns. We&#039;ve had Hamas shelling southern Israeli towns. We&#039;ve had suicide bombings. We&#039;ve had threats of boycotts (a use of force that harms the victims as well as the targets).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;While, in the present, we have the Israeli government (Peres and Olmert, granted that they are old or powerless) considering the literal Arab League proposal AT the green line.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Do you think the use of dissenting force will enhance the prospects for peace there, or is it possible to worsen it?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Peace only happens by consent (whether after force or not). The proportion of the Jewish population that is religious is increasing, that does not have prominent theological leaders advocating for &quot;keep my commandments&quot; rather than &quot;subdue the land&quot;.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Are you pursuing a successful approach? Are you pursuing a cruel approach to some? Are you pursuing an approach that unnecessarily encourages and joins bigotry?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Are you rationalizing &quot;collateral damage&quot; in the name of opposing it?&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And still the two-state solution is the ONLY viable option.</p>
<p>NOONE that I&#39;ve ever heard (and I&#39;ve heard a lot) has articulated a viable map of how to get to a single-state solution without gross warfare (and likely resulting in worse condition for Palestinians).</p>
<p>And, NOONE that I&#39;ve ever heard has articulated a strategy (meaning their actions) that will enhance the likelihood that a single state solution occurs.</p>
<p>The only story proposed so far is force of some kind. We&#39;ve had force with the dispossessions in the region, dispossessions of Jews, dispossessions of Palestinians. We&#39;ve had Hezbollah shelling northern Israeli towns. We&#39;ve had Hamas shelling southern Israeli towns. We&#39;ve had suicide bombings. We&#39;ve had threats of boycotts (a use of force that harms the victims as well as the targets).</p>
<p>While, in the present, we have the Israeli government (Peres and Olmert, granted that they are old or powerless) considering the literal Arab League proposal AT the green line.</p>
<p>Do you think the use of dissenting force will enhance the prospects for peace there, or is it possible to worsen it?</p>
<p>Peace only happens by consent (whether after force or not). The proportion of the Jewish population that is religious is increasing, that does not have prominent theological leaders advocating for &quot;keep my commandments&quot; rather than &quot;subdue the land&quot;.</p>
<p>Are you pursuing a successful approach? Are you pursuing a cruel approach to some? Are you pursuing an approach that unnecessarily encourages and joins bigotry?</p>
<p>Are you rationalizing &quot;collateral damage&quot; in the name of opposing it?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/11/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html/comment-page-1#comment-45751</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/11/19/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html#comment-45751</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I would guess that most of your family are PEP&#039;s by your definition, Phil.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Mine is certainly. I fit your definition.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I am PROUDLY liberal Zionist. Proud of both, and urging reconciliation with Palestinians, consistent rule of law guaranteeing equal due process under the law in both states.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;From my perspective, the anti-Zionist approach is reactionary more than it is progressive.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It reacts, rather than constructs.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You said it yourself, &quot;I don&#039;t propose&quot; (not a direct quote).&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would guess that most of your family are PEP&#39;s by your definition, Phil.</p>
<p>Mine is certainly. I fit your definition.</p>
<p>I am PROUDLY liberal Zionist. Proud of both, and urging reconciliation with Palestinians, consistent rule of law guaranteeing equal due process under the law in both states.</p>
<p>From my perspective, the anti-Zionist approach is reactionary more than it is progressive.</p>
<p>It reacts, rather than constructs.</p>
<p>You said it yourself, &quot;I don&#39;t propose&quot; (not a direct quote).</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/11/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html/comment-page-1#comment-45752</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/11/19/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html#comment-45752</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I DO propose.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I propose that Israel accept the Arab League proposal with the exception of retaining the Jewish quarter of Old Jerusalem. (How you create a state boundary in the middle of a walled city, is beyond me. I&#039;ll leave that to the magicians.)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And, that the 1949 -52 laws prohibiting return to former homes, and the laws transferring title to &quot;abandoned&quot; lands to the Isreali state (then to the Jewish National Fund) be repealed.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And, that EVERY Palestinian with a plausible land claim, gets their day in court, with the ability to research and argue their case directly and with the right of appeal.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;BUT, that courts rationally value CURRENT residence as primary, and result in compensation in the vast majority of cases.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;That the same standard apply in the West Bank, in a color-blind manner, including for claims by Jews.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For this to happen, MANY steps by both communities are prerequisites and/or simultaneious.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For example, it will be necessary for Palestine to repeal its law prohibiting sale of land to Jews in the area of its jurisdiction as well, and allow current residents the ability to perfect their title to contested land by compensation.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Otherwise the result is a rationalized ethnic cleansing. A pendulum swing, substituting one injustice and cruelty for another.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I DO propose.</p>
<p>I propose that Israel accept the Arab League proposal with the exception of retaining the Jewish quarter of Old Jerusalem. (How you create a state boundary in the middle of a walled city, is beyond me. I&#39;ll leave that to the magicians.)</p>
<p>And, that the 1949 -52 laws prohibiting return to former homes, and the laws transferring title to &quot;abandoned&quot; lands to the Isreali state (then to the Jewish National Fund) be repealed.</p>
<p>And, that EVERY Palestinian with a plausible land claim, gets their day in court, with the ability to research and argue their case directly and with the right of appeal.</p>
<p>BUT, that courts rationally value CURRENT residence as primary, and result in compensation in the vast majority of cases.</p>
<p>That the same standard apply in the West Bank, in a color-blind manner, including for claims by Jews.</p>
<p>For this to happen, MANY steps by both communities are prerequisites and/or simultaneious.</p>
<p>For example, it will be necessary for Palestine to repeal its law prohibiting sale of land to Jews in the area of its jurisdiction as well, and allow current residents the ability to perfect their title to contested land by compensation.</p>
<p>Otherwise the result is a rationalized ethnic cleansing. A pendulum swing, substituting one injustice and cruelty for another.</p>
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		<title>By: Ana Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/11/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html/comment-page-1#comment-45753</link>
		<dc:creator>Ana Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/11/19/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html#comment-45753</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yes, we know, Richard.  The 2-state solution is the ONLY viable option: the whole of Mandate Palestine for the Jews and a closet for everyone else.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, we know, Richard.  The 2-state solution is the ONLY viable option: the whole of Mandate Palestine for the Jews and a closet for everyone else.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Michael W</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/11/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html/comment-page-1#comment-45754</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/11/19/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html#comment-45754</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I agree with my fellow PEP the Witty Richy. It&#039;s one thing calling for peace negotiations for eventual withdrawal to approximately pre 1967 borders. It&#039;s another thing to call for the return of Palestinian refugees to Israel proper. Peres, in a badly done interview with Al Jazeera, said that no past, current, or future prime minister will accept Palestinian refugees (unless they are gay and persecuted by other Palestinians). &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Also, the PA (progressive always) hasn&#039;t done anything constructive. Almost like the real PA. It will never be accepted by main stream Jews because there&#039;s no difference with what they say and what today&#039;s Palestinians say.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You also make the argument very badly. You have to make main stream Jews relate to Palestinian struggle. Say: &quot;Be kind to the stranger among you because you were once a stranger in the land of Egypt.&quot; You are using a very well known story among Jews and Christians. All the Jews read this story once a year, at least.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But that story of the Exodus isn&#039;t exactly the kind of justice the Palestinians want. They (the one state advocates) want all of Egypt. Not just all of Egypt but also compensation for 400 years of slavery. They also want to dominate Egypt thru having a majority in a democratic system. But they haven&#039;t shown to be tolerant to minorities either which would probably lead to the same system as with the Pharaoh.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Some want all of Egypt and kick out almost all of the Egyptians but dominating over a small minority.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In conclusion, Palestinians must ask from the Jews, like Moses asked from Pharaoh at first, to let them go and create a state else where (let say West Bank and Gaze and not return to Israel, unless for work). Don&#039;t ask to be equals with the Egyptians because they know you&#039;ll want to dominate with your numbers. Ask for some compensation like the Israelites got some gold jewelry. Even though your land will have economic difficulties (like the Israelites had difficulties in their land (giants and stuff). It will take them a long time to make a viable state (40 years in the desert) but they&#039;ll get a lot of foreign aid because a lot of people want to see it succeed. &lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with my fellow PEP the Witty Richy. It&#39;s one thing calling for peace negotiations for eventual withdrawal to approximately pre 1967 borders. It&#39;s another thing to call for the return of Palestinian refugees to Israel proper. Peres, in a badly done interview with Al Jazeera, said that no past, current, or future prime minister will accept Palestinian refugees (unless they are gay and persecuted by other Palestinians). </p>
<p>Also, the PA (progressive always) hasn&#39;t done anything constructive. Almost like the real PA. It will never be accepted by main stream Jews because there&#39;s no difference with what they say and what today&#39;s Palestinians say.</p>
<p>You also make the argument very badly. You have to make main stream Jews relate to Palestinian struggle. Say: &quot;Be kind to the stranger among you because you were once a stranger in the land of Egypt.&quot; You are using a very well known story among Jews and Christians. All the Jews read this story once a year, at least.</p>
<p>But that story of the Exodus isn&#39;t exactly the kind of justice the Palestinians want. They (the one state advocates) want all of Egypt. Not just all of Egypt but also compensation for 400 years of slavery. They also want to dominate Egypt thru having a majority in a democratic system. But they haven&#39;t shown to be tolerant to minorities either which would probably lead to the same system as with the Pharaoh.</p>
<p>Some want all of Egypt and kick out almost all of the Egyptians but dominating over a small minority.</p>
<p>In conclusion, Palestinians must ask from the Jews, like Moses asked from Pharaoh at first, to let them go and create a state else where (let say West Bank and Gaze and not return to Israel, unless for work). Don&#39;t ask to be equals with the Egyptians because they know you&#39;ll want to dominate with your numbers. Ask for some compensation like the Israelites got some gold jewelry. Even though your land will have economic difficulties (like the Israelites had difficulties in their land (giants and stuff). It will take them a long time to make a viable state (40 years in the desert) but they&#39;ll get a lot of foreign aid because a lot of people want to see it succeed. </p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/11/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html/comment-page-1#comment-45755</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/11/19/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html#comment-45755</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Was that really Michael W?&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was that really Michael W?</p>
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		<title>By: Committee for Historical Accuracy</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/11/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html/comment-page-1#comment-45756</link>
		<dc:creator>Committee for Historical Accuracy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/11/19/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html#comment-45756</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The new Macmillan Encyclopaedia of Race and Racism is under attack from our ruling elite for its chapter on Zionism. Joachim Martillo posted about the AJC&#039;s campaign &lt;a href=&quot;http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2008/10/ajc-attacks-ignatiev-congratulates.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. Now it seems some saucy plebeians are daring to push back with a &lt;a href=&quot;http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2008/11/17/encyclopedia-of-race-and-racism-under-zionist-attack/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;petition&lt;/a&gt; to the publisher. Which side are you on?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The new Macmillan Encyclopaedia of Race and Racism is under attack from our ruling elite for its chapter on Zionism. Joachim Martillo posted about the AJC&#39;s campaign <a href="http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2008/10/ajc-attacks-ignatiev-congratulates.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Now it seems some saucy plebeians are daring to push back with a <a href="http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2008/11/17/encyclopedia-of-race-and-racism-under-zionist-attack/" rel="nofollow">petition</a> to the publisher. Which side are you on?</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/11/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html/comment-page-1#comment-45757</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/11/19/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html#comment-45757</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;Progressive Except for Palestine...conservative/religious-nationalist on Palestine.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Isn&#039;t it easier and more accurate to simply call them what they are? Hypocrites.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;Progressive Except for Palestine&#8230;conservative/religious-nationalist on Palestine.&quot;</p>
<p>Isn&#39;t it easier and more accurate to simply call them what they are? Hypocrites.</p>
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		<title>By: cogit8</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/11/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html/comment-page-1#comment-45758</link>
		<dc:creator>cogit8</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/11/19/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html#comment-45758</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Jews are eating their own:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_1140.shtml&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jews are eating their own:</p>
<p>http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_1140.shtml</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: cogit8</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2008/11/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html/comment-page-1#comment-45759</link>
		<dc:creator>cogit8</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/11/19/pep-and-why-you-dont-want-to-be-pep.html#comment-45759</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Be kind to the stranger among you because you were once a stranger in the land of Egypt.&quot; &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I believe that is &quot;avadim ha&#039;inu&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Be kind to the stranger among you because you were once a stranger in the land of Egypt.&quot; </p>
<p>I believe that is &quot;avadim ha&#39;inu&quot;</p>
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