Comments on: Day 2 of the Gaza assault begins http://mondoweiss.net/2008/12/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html The War of Ideas in the Middle East Mon, 28 May 2012 06:48:11 +0000 hourly 1 By: Colin Murray http://mondoweiss.net/2008/12/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html/comment-page-1#comment-42419 Colin Murray Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/12/28/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html#comment-42419 <p>I hope Hamas doesn't allow themselves to be goaded into making stupid decisions. The future freedom of the Palestinian people, and of more importance to me, the health and well-being of my own country, may hinge on their leadership keeping a cool head.</p> <p>*****************************<br /> Is it good for the Americans?</p> I hope Hamas doesn't allow themselves to be goaded into making stupid decisions. The future freedom of the Palestinian people, and of more importance to me, the health and well-being of my own country, may hinge on their leadership keeping a cool head.

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Is it good for the Americans?

]]> By: Richard Witty http://mondoweiss.net/2008/12/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html/comment-page-1#comment-42420 Richard Witty Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/12/28/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html#comment-42420 <p>Colin,<br /> What would constitute a stupid decision by Hamas in your eyes?</p> <p>There honestly was the possibility of extension of the cease-fire dependant on Hamas deciding to do so.</p> <p>For a week, Israel did NOT respond militarily to resumption of shelling of Israeli civilian towns.</p> <p>There is NO "good guy" in this. Hamas is not innocent. It made war.</p> <p>There are some absolutes. One is that for Gaza to get to be Palestine, the shelling of Israeli civilians must CEASE, and beyond a temporary "cease-fire".</p> Colin,
What would constitute a stupid decision by Hamas in your eyes?

There honestly was the possibility of extension of the cease-fire dependant on Hamas deciding to do so.

For a week, Israel did NOT respond militarily to resumption of shelling of Israeli civilian towns.

There is NO "good guy" in this. Hamas is not innocent. It made war.

There are some absolutes. One is that for Gaza to get to be Palestine, the shelling of Israeli civilians must CEASE, and beyond a temporary "cease-fire".

]]> By: Richard Witty http://mondoweiss.net/2008/12/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html/comment-page-1#comment-42421 Richard Witty Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/12/28/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html#comment-42421 <p>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050459.html</p> <p>The neighborhood bully strikes again </p> <p><br /> ...<br /> "Blood will now flow like water. Besieged and impoverished Gaza, the city of refugees, will pay the main price. But blood will also be unnecessarily spilled on our side. In its foolishness, Hamas brought this on itself and on its people, but this does not excuse Israel's overreaction."</p> <p><br /> </p> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050459.html

The neighborhood bully strikes again

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"Blood will now flow like water. Besieged and impoverished Gaza, the city of refugees, will pay the main price. But blood will also be unnecessarily spilled on our side. In its foolishness, Hamas brought this on itself and on its people, but this does not excuse Israel's overreaction."

]]> By: anon http://mondoweiss.net/2008/12/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html/comment-page-1#comment-42422 anon Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/12/28/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html#comment-42422 <p>Witty, remind us, who broke the ceasefire?</p> Witty, remind us, who broke the ceasefire?

]]> By: Rowan Berkeley http://mondoweiss.net/2008/12/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html/comment-page-1#comment-42423 Rowan Berkeley Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/12/28/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html#comment-42423 <p>actually, it was Islamic Jihad who started the rocket offensive, as retaliation for an air attack on some of their 'operatives'. </p> actually, it was Islamic Jihad who started the rocket offensive, as retaliation for an air attack on some of their 'operatives'.

]]> By: syvanen http://mondoweiss.net/2008/12/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html/comment-page-1#comment-42424 syvanen Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/12/28/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html#comment-42424 <p>Witty has a point. I have always questioned the morality of what we call today the partisans, but were in fact people who engaged in terrorism, who resisted German occupation of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, France, Italy etc. during WWII. The Germans promised to kill civilians if the local terrorists killed any German soldiers. But these partisans, insurgents or terrorists (call them what you will) persisted in resisting occupation. We all know what happened to the inhabitants of Lidice when these people assasinated Heydrich. The moral responsibility for these killings resided on both sides.</p> <p>Today of course we honor these partisans as heroes and blame the Germans for these massacres. But like I said above, the partisans must share some of the moral responsibility for their actions since they had been warned in advance what would happen if they resisted the occupation. I think those Hamas fighters (insurgents or terrorists, call them what you will) are also morally responsible for the civilians that the Israelis are killing today. Let us not forget that the Israelis, just like their German predecessors, have warned Hamas as to the consequence of their efforts to resist Israeli domination of the Palestinians.</p> <p>So I believe Witty does have legitimate moral defense for Israel's actions. But history is not fair in these matters, his position will eventually be judged evil, just as the Germans are judged today.</p> Witty has a point. I have always questioned the morality of what we call today the partisans, but were in fact people who engaged in terrorism, who resisted German occupation of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, France, Italy etc. during WWII. The Germans promised to kill civilians if the local terrorists killed any German soldiers. But these partisans, insurgents or terrorists (call them what you will) persisted in resisting occupation. We all know what happened to the inhabitants of Lidice when these people assasinated Heydrich. The moral responsibility for these killings resided on both sides.

Today of course we honor these partisans as heroes and blame the Germans for these massacres. But like I said above, the partisans must share some of the moral responsibility for their actions since they had been warned in advance what would happen if they resisted the occupation. I think those Hamas fighters (insurgents or terrorists, call them what you will) are also morally responsible for the civilians that the Israelis are killing today. Let us not forget that the Israelis, just like their German predecessors, have warned Hamas as to the consequence of their efforts to resist Israeli domination of the Palestinians.

So I believe Witty does have legitimate moral defense for Israel's actions. But history is not fair in these matters, his position will eventually be judged evil, just as the Germans are judged today.

]]> By: BLG http://mondoweiss.net/2008/12/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html/comment-page-1#comment-42425 BLG Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/12/28/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html#comment-42425 <p><a href="http://www.thestar.com/World/Columnist/article/537536" rel="nofollow">Nov 15, 2008</a><br /> Yesterday's flurry of hostilities followed nine days of repeated ceasefire violations by both sides that <b>began when Israeli forces entered Gaza Nov. 4 to destroy a tunnel they said was to be used to kidnap Israeli troops. Palestinians responded with rocket fire, and hostilities on both sides have continued.</b></p> <p>Israeli strikes have killed 11 Palestinians since Nov. 4.</p> Nov 15, 2008
Yesterday's flurry of hostilities followed nine days of repeated ceasefire violations by both sides that began when Israeli forces entered Gaza Nov. 4 to destroy a tunnel they said was to be used to kidnap Israeli troops. Palestinians responded with rocket fire, and hostilities on both sides have continued.

Israeli strikes have killed 11 Palestinians since Nov. 4.

]]> By: Richard Witty http://mondoweiss.net/2008/12/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html/comment-page-1#comment-42426 Richard Witty Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/12/28/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html#comment-42426 <p>Syvannen,<br /> Your passive-aggressive spin on Hamas warring, is sad. It KEEPS wrongs continuing.</p> <p>There will NOT be peace, or any Palestine, in Gaza or the West Bank so long as assaults directed at civilians is the method of "resistance" employed.</p> <p>The Israeli state has a responsibility to its civilians to act on a state or semi-state that is initiating war.</p> <p>Even destroying tunnels used for smuggling, weapons and prospectively abduction is a legitimate role of a state, in fact a RESPONSIBILITY of a state.</p> <p>To interpret that as breaking a cease-fire is Orwellian.</p> Syvannen,
Your passive-aggressive spin on Hamas warring, is sad. It KEEPS wrongs continuing.

There will NOT be peace, or any Palestine, in Gaza or the West Bank so long as assaults directed at civilians is the method of "resistance" employed.

The Israeli state has a responsibility to its civilians to act on a state or semi-state that is initiating war.

Even destroying tunnels used for smuggling, weapons and prospectively abduction is a legitimate role of a state, in fact a RESPONSIBILITY of a state.

To interpret that as breaking a cease-fire is Orwellian.

]]> By: Richard Witty http://mondoweiss.net/2008/12/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html/comment-page-1#comment-42427 Richard Witty Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/12/28/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html#comment-42427 <p>Also,<br /> You guys should read the Haaretz article that I referred to by Gideon Levy.</p> <p>The "Bully" he was referring to is Israel, not Hamas.</p> <p>But, who among you would respond with anything but a knee-jerk?</p> Also,
You guys should read the Haaretz article that I referred to by Gideon Levy.

The "Bully" he was referring to is Israel, not Hamas.

But, who among you would respond with anything but a knee-jerk?

]]> By: Richard Witty http://mondoweiss.net/2008/12/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html/comment-page-1#comment-42428 Richard Witty Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/12/28/day-2-of-the-gaza-invasion-begins.html#comment-42428 <p>So, lauded MJ Rosenburg refers to the Hamas resumption of hostilities as "suicidal", "borderline insane".</p> <p>Gideon Levy refers to the Hamas resumption of hostilities as "Hamas brought this on itself".</p> <p>And, there becomes a political dividing line between those ennablers that blame only Hamas, those that blame Israel and Hamas, and those ennablers that blame only Israel.</p> So, lauded MJ Rosenburg refers to the Hamas resumption of hostilities as "suicidal", "borderline insane".

Gideon Levy refers to the Hamas resumption of hostilities as "Hamas brought this on itself".

And, there becomes a political dividing line between those ennablers that blame only Hamas, those that blame Israel and Hamas, and those ennablers that blame only Israel.

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