New poll. 66 percent of Palestinians favor the Arab peace proposal, calling for a withdrawal to the 1967 border. But only 36 percent of Israelis support it. And only 40 percent of Israelis are for dividing Jerusalem. Even fewer Palestinians: 36 percent.
Deep intransigence. Writes Mazin Qumsiyeh, a Christian Palestinian-American in Bethlehem for Christmas:
Israel's desire to acquire maximum geography with minimum Palestinian demography is the root of the suffering afflicting the Holy Land....
[H]istory is not static as is amply illustrated by many historical examples, including the rise and fall of the Bush dynasty. Here in Bethlehem, we derive strength from knowing that the foreign military occupation that existed at Jesusâs time has ended.
Gershom Gorenburg who runs the 'south jerusalem' blog has some pithy things to say about the city, as I recall.
By the way, he seems to have conducted a recent interview with Avraham Burg:
link to southjerusalem.com
This poll is consistent with many other polls of Israeli opinion over the last decade. It is why many rational observers believe the two state solution is not possible. The US cannot force Israel to go against its people's desires. This has led many of us to believe that the two state solution is inviable. What is the alternative? I don't know how the Israelis and Palestinians will work this out, but I do know that the US should not fight another war trying to help Israel achieve its goal of hegemony over the West Bank. It is their struggle, not ours. We really have only one option and that is to withdraw. Otherwise we will have to fight another war on Israel's behalf.
You neglect to metion that Arab approval of the scheme includes implementation of the phony Palestinian "Right of Return". No one in Israel is going to agree to that, not even the "progressives".
what's so phony about it? It's a rule under international law and one of the conditions under which Israel was allowed to become a state.
anyways, zionists have no regard for others but themselves. no sense of right and wrong. since you people are so religious, let god judge your actions
A July last WorldPublicOpinion.org poll of 18 countries finds that in 14 of them people mostly say their government should not take sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Just three countries favor taking the Palestinian side (Egypt, Iran, and Turkey). No country favors taking Israelâs side, including the United States, where 71 percent favor taking neither side.
LD,
Didn't you mean "one of the conditions under which Israel was allowed to steal a state?"
The "right of return" means the death of the Jews in Israel and the dispersion of any that manage to survive. Why should Israel agree to that. Why would they.
Then admit that Israel is a racist state. If this were the Germans, trying to create a German only state. Or a Christian only state. Or if an American politician articulating that America is a Christian State. Just SAYING it, not acting on it like Israel is – then people would go batshit.
It just further proves my point that when dealing with Israel, good people, moderates, have to lower their standards of morals and ethics to accomadate the Zionists.
It also shows that money and guns are more powerful than honesty and virtue.
So yea, why should Israel accept the right of return of Palestinians if they want to maintain a Jewish SUPREMACY? They shouldn't obviously – it's not in their "interest."
In terms of doing the right thing, the moral thing, yea they should allow it.
That however, is only if you think Zionists have morals and ethics.
Well, its like this. If you use that criteria EVERY single MOSLEM state would be classified has racist. EVERY SINGLE FUCKING ONE. The official religion of Italy comes out of the vatican. The King of England is the "Defender of the Faith" The Chinese track down Christians and put them in camps. And lets not even get started with Africa. Israel has Arab members of the knesset, and Arab members of the judiciary. And substantial Arab student populations in colleges who have the advantage in that they don't do national service. And you get worked up because the average guy in Israel doesn't want the local Hamas cell moving in next door so they can rape and kill his kids. What's the deal.
And I forgot to even mention the krauts. Nice job they did in that little interlude 1939-45
Israel's institutionalized "right of return" means the always on-going ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in the OT and continued economic enslavement of the Palestinians in Israel and as a blanket rule, the dispersion of any that manage to survive. Why should the Palestinians agree to that? Why would they? Why do the Americans
fund it? Why is this state of affairs condemned in the whole world outside Israel except in the USA, which was once a role model?
One state solution gets closer and closer every day as numbers like this pile up…
SoG, what the hells makes you think that I WOULDNT (if what you say is true) condemn those other countries?
You either believe in freedom/equality for all or you don't.
Zionism is just another form of nationalism. If you replace the word "Zionist" with "pastafarian" then it'd be no different.
To me, it has nothing to do with Jews. This is all just identity politics. It's no different from the growing Indian lobby. Or the existing Gun Lobbies or whatever.
On that note, I think the difference between the Zionists and these other lobbies is that the Zionists try to censor and intimidate people (ADL censoring Youtube under Orwellian, "fight the hate" campaign).
Now, once again. I don't care about these ancient texts and Jewish this or Muslim that. It's just socialized behavior. You can color it anyway you want and say it's all mystical and blah blah.
What it comes down to is power and money and land. Those are the 3 components.
Just look at Saudi Arabia. Why does the US support them? Aren't they so pro-Israel? Wouldn't it conflict? Not to mention that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis.
It's not about identities to the policy makers in the US. It's about INTERESTS. Economic and strategic.
So. When I give Israel all this crap, it's not that I'm ignoring those other countries with horrible human rights.
It's that in America, all we ever hear is that Israel has a right to defend itself from the evil Palestinians. The backlash has to do with people being force-fed a picture that isn't real. It's the amount of cynicism exhibited by Israel's supports and our government towards us that is frustrating.
Can we also rally against the Saudis? Yea, we should too. Should we do it towards countries like Iran? Or Turkey? Yea we should.
But in terms of efficiency and intent (peace in the region) – it's ISRAEL that is the obstacle for peace. The amount of propaganda that is supposed to make us feel sorry for Israel (and for Jews) is what causes people to be angry and disgusted with American Jewry and Israel.
The same isn't true for Arabs. We only see bad depictions of Arabs. And by Arabs, I mean ALL of them and ALL muslims. We never get to see good depictions. EVER. But when it's Jews, it's ALWAYS good. This is where the dissent comes from. We know this is bullshit.
If the Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed how come their population keeps going up geometrically? And how are they being dispersed, where? And since when is Europe, The Islamic middle east. And the Asians moral arbiters of anything.
the arrogance of american zionist jews aided by the unflinching support of the christian zionist chumps will cause this issue to fester until there will come a time of real crisis.
it appears we aint seen nothing yet.
perceived power is the worst type….it causes arrogance and only realizes its delusion when it tries to use the perceived power and finds it to be an illusion.
zionism is like the man behind the curtain in the wizard of ozz.
realize it now and help your country israel to mend its wayward ways.
zionism is a farce and american jewish zionist who still suck up to it are blind.
jewsagainstzionism.com
Nathan Schwalb
Nathan Schwalb served as the representative of the Jewish Agency, exercising authority upon matters of rescue of the European Jews during the holocaust.
When he was approached by the rescue committee of Czech Jewry for a sum of money to halt the transports to Auschwitz, he answered:
"Since we have the opportunity of this courier, we are writing to the group that they must always remember that matter which is most important, which is the main issue that must always be before our eyes. After all, the allies will be victorius. After the victory they will once again divide up the world between the nations as they did at the end of the first war. Then they opened the way for us for the first step and now, as the war ends, we must do everything so that Eretz Yisroel should become a Jewish state. ….we must be aware that all the nations of the Allies are spilling much blood and if we do not bring sacrifices, with what will we achieve the right to sit at the table when they make the distribution of nations and territories after the way? "
…the shedding of Jewish blood in the Diaspora is necessary in order for us to demand the establishment of a "Jewish" state before the peace commission…Czech Jewry must resign itself to annihilation in the Auschwitz crematoria"
…Holocaust Victims Accuse, pp 26-28.
The kill ratio of Jews to Pals: 1:10
Only the orthodox Jews breed equally as the Pals.
The Pals are the largest group of refugees in the world.
Where have you been for the last 60 plus years, SOG?
What planet are you on?
Since when are Jews moral arbiters of anything?
Look what they've done where they attained power, e.g., early Bolsheviks, Israel from day one, both biblical, feudal, and as a
modern nation state.
Israel is sold to the American troops and taxpayers as having higher standards than the geographic rest.
Israel alone gets unconditional support based on this propaganda.
This is not always in the USA's best interest.
But, I see that's no concern of yours.
It's always that the Palestinian right of return means the 'DEATH' of the jews – how that is I have no idea.
But apparently having a right of return for ANY JEW IN THE WORLD to be able to come to Israel and have a Palestinian family rendered homeless as a result is just fine.
Actually its any jew coming and living on occupied land – while 1.5 million arabs starve.
Lovely.
Philipp, the link to the poll doesn't work. Please re-post.
Bravo, LD!
This pretty much says it all:
"It's that in America, all we ever hear is that Israel has a right to defend itself from the evil Palestinians. The backlash has to do with people being force-fed a picture that isn't real. It's the amount of cynicism exhibited by Israel's supports and our government towards us that is frustrating."
Ten years we may not have known better but the interweb and sites like this have changed the equation.
Because every time since 1993 Palestinians have gained access to Israel, terror attacks against Jews have followed. So we can assume that terror networks will follow any mass return, since the Palestinians are governed by Fateh, Hamas, and the opposition is the PFLP and Jihad. So much for "live in peace with their neighbors" and UN194. Also the 300,000 1948-born refugees are never an issue, it is always posed as swamping Israel demographically, most notably by the Palestinian side. So RoR is bull $#^!, even though Israel offered to take back 100,000 in '49 and did take back ca. 100,000 through "family reunification" (on pause since 2003).
This is a state that refused return to its own citizens in Biram and Ikrit, to "avoid setting a precedent". They're not going to take back enemy aliens.
Mazin Qumsiyeh asks in the article you linked to "what would Jesus do?" I imagine he would lead an organised political party into the Temple and expropriate the money-changers.
I would only say that had Israel negotiated in good faith, and saw the process through instead of increasing the number of settlements and increasing the oppression and assassinations during said peace process, it's highly likely you'd have a complete different scenario that would you'd see today, IMHO.
"Also the 300,000 1948-born refugees are never an issue, it is always posed as swamping Israel demographically, most notably by the Palestinian side."
What does this mean? Never an issue for whom?
RoR is no more bullshit than the law that allows only members of a certain religious group to immigrate to a country where more than half of it was viscously robbed from the indigenous population – who, as you know quite well, continue to live under a nasty military occupation whereby they are regularly murdered, beaten and starved; and have what little property they own regularly taken from them.
This is apart from the fact that international law unequivocally allows for Palestinians to return – which also should allow them to live on the land originally allocated for them in 1948. International law also indicates that any territory acquired through war is illegal and must be returned to it's original inhabitants.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine occurred during the time time that those laws were written, so it would seem to be a fair and reasonable solution – if we weren't dealing with a nation of religious fanatics who think the land was given to them by some mythical entity and are armed to the teeth with weapons of mass destruction.
IMHO….
religious fanatics. Whoops, I thought you were talking about any one of the 22 members of the Islamic league. Maybe the taliban, hezbollah, hamas, Islamic jihad, the PFLP. the people that destroy jewish religious sites. Or maybe chechens, the Albanians. Maybe the Al-aksa martyrs brigades, The Iranian revolutionary guards. The Moslem brotherhood. . Nah, nobody like that there. The "right of return" means the death of Israel and the Jews there in. What incentive does Israel have to agree to that.
It is defined as "return" of 1949-refugees and their DESCENDANTS. Palestinians have never accepted any of Israel's ex gratia offers, because to do so–or return the 300,000 or so actual émigrés remaining–would not allow them to swamp Israel demographically. Individually, about 100,000 Palestinians have accepted offers of "family reunification", and approximately another 100,000 returned in '49-'50 illegally, by infiltration, and were registered as Israeli citizens rather than expelled. This is a cynical game with generations of largely-impoverished people, and Israel isn't going to self-destruct to please al-awda and other out-to-lunch elitist Diaspora groups dreaming of daddy's house in Jaffa, Katamon, Musrara, or Talbiyeh. There are the repatriated Jews of Arab lands living in those houses anyway.
No kidding – how do you know that?
Why can't they go back to those Arabs nations they were expelled from?
Then those Palestinians ethnically cleansed can go back to there rightful home.
Everybody's happy.
Whatdyathink?
yep some of those are pretty fanatical too – I wouldn't put Hezbollah in there or Hamas because they are legitimately fighting a far extreme group of fanatics(who can lie with quite remarkable conviction). Israel still has Lebanese land, continues to meddle in the political process of Lebanon; assassination etc. And of course Hamas might be pretty severe – but the situation requires it – and they've shown enough willingness to compromise their own views with the will of the Palestinian people including peace with Israel.
I frankly don't care what you believe providing you can do it in your own country and don't steal others land and start wars because you can(for now).
And Israel's nukes are a major problem.
It's inevitable that other nations WILL acquire them as long as Israel continues to possess it's arsenal – and attack other countries so casually and brazenly.
Israel's making a big mistake playing games with a peace process while it's in a position of strength….
Actually I wouldn't put the Taliban in there either – until foreign troops are out and the bombings stop…..
The Iraqi, Egyptian, Algerian and Tunisian governments liked having the assets and the housing stock of the Jews who were "encouraged" to leave.
Return is not really happening. Enrico Macias (nom de plume of Hassan Hanafiyeh), a French citizen and indigenous Algerian Jew, attempted to go back to Constantine, Algeria, for a concert in memory of his mentor Sheikh Raymond, on the 40th anniversary (2002) of his mentor's death. He was forbidden to enter Algeria on grounds that he had played a concert in Jerusalem. If someone totally cognizant of and participating in Arab culture can't pass muster, who will?
Yeah let's match up Macias's plight with that of 700,000 Palestinians.
Nothing like a good sense of proportion, sort of like matching up
of respective civilian attrition rates.
The death of one Jew is more important than a billion dead goys.