Comments on: Oh we had larks when we was takin on the Israel lobby!!

By: Dan Kelly

Dan Kelly — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Richards holds on to some nostalgic notion of Zionism from 1920-1950.

Yes, much like Chomsky, Richard wants to differentiate. I think Paul Eisen summed it up best:

"It was secular Labour Zionists who created the Zionist ideology and the pre-state Jewish-only society. It was secular Zionists - good, humanistic, left-wing kibbutzniks - who directed and carried out the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians, and the destruction of their towns and villages. It was secular Zionists who established the present state with all its discriminatory practices; and it was a largely secular Labour government that held the Palestinian citizens of Israel under military government in their own land for eighteen years. Finally, it was a secular, Labour government which conquered the West Bank and Gaza, and first built the settlements, and embarked on the Oslo peace process, coolly designed to deceive the Palestinians into surrendering their rights."

Zionism is Zionism is Zionism.

Jewish Power

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

An interesting article.

I don't assume that Zionism can't be reformed to a "Live and let live" status.

I do assume that Islamic expansionism can't be, at least currently.

If someone will PROVE to me that Hamas is interested in a "live and let live" position, I'll be more hopeful.

By: Sarah

Sarah — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Thanks for the url to Jewish Power, Dan K. It is concise and very much to the fat point.

By: Me

Me — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

"Islamic expansionism"

Haha Witty you're one hell of a joke. What do you smoke before you post?

Look at the maps you moron, where is Islamic expansionism? Since Zionists (not the peaceful Jews who lived there amongst other people before the Zionists came) set foot in Palestine, Arab borders have shrinked, and Jewish borders have expanded.

Islamic expansionism my ass.

By: Sarah

Sarah — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Witty is blind. He's a Zionist. He starts with the Zionist zero-sum-game premise. He's also stupid, as anyone can see by his posts, all feeble attempts to manipulate.

By: Mohammad

Mohammad — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Stop insulting. he can be responded to without insults. I never have seen a Palestinian speak like this with Zionists. I sympathize with the outrage but insults would not help you or the Palestinians.

By: Ed

Ed — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

"It was secular Zionists - good, humanistic, left-wing kibbutzniks - who directed and carried out the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians, and the destruction of their towns and villages. It was secular Zionists who established the present state with all its discriminatory practices..."

That seems to be the organized Jewish modus-operandi: send in the “secular” Jews first, under the pretense of racially blind liberalism and the earnest need for sanctuary, to convince the natives (particularly the more gullible ones) that the group has a humanitarian, universalist agenda, and isn’t interested in ever racially or religiously discriminating against non-Jews. Then, over time, as it gains power and confidence (more quickly in the case of Palestine, more slowly in the case of the US) the mask comes off and its true religo/racial agenda emerges. Eventually, once the group feels it is in control of the centers of power or has infiltrated the power structure to the point of near saturation, its true Jewish supremacist face emerges and it drops its “progressive” pose.

Of course, in the US, there are still plenty of Zionist members of organized Jewry posing as “progressives,” and some of the more naïve of them even seem to believe that the nature of organized Jewry is racially benign. Obviously, they haven’t studied the behavior or history of their racial movement very critically.

By: roy belmont

roy belmont — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Every day now there's a predictable back and forth between, not the people themselves, but the shallow rigid attitudes of Richard Witty and the various barking opportunists who ridicule him unimaginitively.
It's tiresome, and the dwindling number of regular commenters reflects that I think.
It's the feral stench of the outer 'net coming in everywhere.
Chihuahuas on their own, gathering in packs, eating everything they come across, land piranhas.
No dialog, no thought, nothing new or complicated, a frenzy of nasty little yaps and snarls, then every once in a while someone with only a minimal connection to reality throws up a twenty-paragraph comment that no one else bothers to read.
It's like feeding time at the zoo, as my father used to say.
Richard:
"If someone will PROVE to me that Hamas is interested in a "live and let live" position, I'll be more hopeful"
We're no longer in the area where logistics and practical concerns are paramount. It's spiritual now, emotional - psychological, if you want science represented.
It's about healing, not negotiation. And not because the wounding is over and done with, but precisely because it continues.
Rising alongside the rejection of Israeli atrocities in Gaza is an unthinking blanketing anti-Semitism that will harm innocents and radicalize the ambivalent. Rigidities of attitude, selfish fear and arrogance, an intentional heartlessness - they create ideal conditions for that mindless hatred to incubate. We need the opposite, the antidote.
We need compassion now, all of us or whatever it is we all make together, if we're to avoid the squalid waste of unintentional mass suicide.
Everyone feels and sees the cause of their own pain. We need more vision than that.
Recognition of the suffering of the other, no matter which side you're on or they're on.
Families are burying and burying and burying and burying their dead in Gaza - you need to address that in front, and expose your heart, or the empty place where your heart should be.

By: Ed

Ed — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Mohammad: "Stop insulting...I never have seen a Palestinian speak like this with Zionists"

Yes, and look at the Palestinians now. Their good will didn't get them much but a jack-boot in the face, did it? But best not to disrespect the Jewish massah-boss, eh Mohammad?

By: Dan Kelly

Dan Kelly — Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000

Hamas has offered to "live and let live" on more than one occasion, as have other groups resisting brutal Israeli expansion. Israel inevitably breaks whatever terms are agreed upon, because Israel has no intention of living and letting and live, which can be easily discerned from the words of its leaders throughout its racist history and by its brutal, inhumane actions.

Hamas, or any other resistance group, needn't prove anything. The burden of proof rests with the one who holds power, i.e. Israel. Until such time that Israel acts rationally and humanely, resistance will continue, and rightfully (and legally) so. Given its behavior since its inception, its racist ideology and Jewish supremacist nature, needless to say, no one is holding their breath waiting for Israel to change.

Israel is the aggressor. Israel is breaking international law, not to mention all laws anyone with a conscience would hold dear. To put the burden of proof on Hamas, a resistance organization trying to maintain what's left of the Palestinian culture, is repulsive. It is akin to watching five huge high school seniors repeatedly brutalizing a measly fifth grader, and then having the audacity, when the fifth grader gets in one lame punch, to reprimand him for daring to fight back to save his life. "Until such time as you don't fight back at all, little fifth grader, and just lie down and let us do what we will to you, then you'll have proven that we can trust you, and maybe then we'll stop pummelling you." Of course, by then the fifth grader will be dead, which is exactly the point of the exercise. Again, this is easily discerned from reading Israeli and Zionist literature, past and present. A disgusting attempt at moral equivalency, to say the least.