Dan Fleshler is real smart on the Israel lobby. And he says AIPAC's fingerprints were all over the Freeman takedown:
Very reliable sources inform me that Josh Block, an AIPAC
spokesperson, contacted bloggers and journalists expressing concern
about Freeman. That is probably what Freeman referred to when he
mentioned “easily traceable e-mails” in the announcement that he was
giving up the fight. Trust me on this one. I had to think twice about
writing it because I want Block, who is generally very nice to critical
journalists at the AIPAC Policy Conferences, to be nice to me. There is
no way I would have written it unless it were manifestly true, and
important.
spokesperson, contacted bloggers and journalists expressing concern
about Freeman. That is probably what Freeman referred to when he
mentioned “easily traceable e-mails” in the announcement that he was
giving up the fight. Trust me on this one. I had to think twice about
writing it because I want Block, who is generally very nice to critical
journalists at the AIPAC Policy Conferences, to be nice to me. There is
no way I would have written it unless it were manifestly true, and
important.
Even it were not true, is simply inconceivable that Mark Kirk,
Charles Schumer and other Congressfolk who publicly objected to Freeman
would have done so without the encouragement –or winks and nods– of
AIPAC. The Hill is where it lives and breathes, and nothing this
important could have been orchestrated without its blessing.
Ditto on Josh Block. A fair guy, and a nice guy to me, too. But it's still the empire.
Also: This is all that Mearsheimer and Walt ever wanted: an open discussion. We're getting it. I keep saying: "60 Minutes."
"Occupied Territory"
All of the optimism in the world might make you feel better. But it does nothing to alter the fact that Charles Freeman was taken down by AIPAC, and Barack Obama didn't lift a finger to save him–this despite the fact that his job did not require Senate approval.
No doubt about it. AIPAC's current policy of laying lower, but still pushing the buttons by orchestrating
the media, including its blogger friends, and myriad of politos shows only that W & M et Carter has made it dive a bit lower under the radar. Yeah, Powers got in–but assigned a position where she do little to fight the AIPAC legions. Yeah Moran stayed in office. The key is how many in Congress can stand up to AIPAC? The ratio is like comparing the IDF power with a handful of HAMAS home-made rockets. Here's a suggestion of the most even the congressional ratio has ever been for decades:
"Representative Jim Moran on the power of AIPAC, May 2007.TIKKUN: What do you think the reasoning is for the Democrats who voted against the amendment requiring that the president get authorization from Congress before attacking Iran?
MORAN: Well, AIPAC strongly opposed it. In fact, Rep. Murtha, Rep. Obey, and myself wanted it in the supplemental. We had it in and then the leadership had to take it out because AIPAC was having a conference in Washington, and insisted with the leadership and many of the members with whom they have close alliances. Yesterday, AIPAC had an amendment to recommit the whole Armed Services Bill in order to add language requiring America to develop missile defenses jointly with Israel, to share all its missile defense technology with Israel. That passed overwhelmingly. There were only thirty members�that�s less than 10 percent�who voted against sharing all our missile technology with Israel. It received about 400 votes in favor of it. I was one of the thirty. My feeling was that it wasn�t just the incendiary language that Israel is under immediate attack and we need to protect it from another Holocaust, it was also the idea that the solution to Israel�s security is a militaristic one. I would urge you to read the Congressional record for the debate on the recommital. It put our loyalty to Israel in terms of complete military support. My feeling is that both America and Israel have acted in counterproductive fashion and have undermined their security by focusing exclusively on military capability.
That was a key vote yesterday. It was phrased by many as an �AIPAC vote.� As a result, it prevailed approximately 400 to thirty."
NPR just broadcast a totally inadequate interview with Charles Freeman just now on "All Things Considered," that left out every important fact. (More censorship at NPR. Mary Louise Kelley had a blurb on Freeman this morning in "Morning Edition" that [like the Wash. Post] never discussed the Lobby and mentioned Israel only after China.)
I'm not trusting hearsay for one flippin' moment. That's for the kool aid drinking sheep.
I want to see the emails. All physical, indicting evidence should be made public.
I want to see what they said, how they said it, to whom, whether they were one player among many, or the main instigator as the Jew haters claim.
You make accusations, be prepared to back it up.
BTW–didn't Freeman implicitly say that Schumer had nothing to do with this? I believe he said so publically.
Did the Jewish mafia threaten his family and his life if he didn't say that???? :-)
Suzanne,
You are directing your request to the wrong people. GO to Daniel Pipes site and ask him. He's the one who said Steve Rosen, indicted with espionage against the United States brought down Chas Freeman.
"This is all that Mearsheimer and Walt ever wanted: an open discussion."
What they wanted to do was a hatchet job. According to Benny Morris "Their work is riddled with shoddiness and defiled by mendacity."
"This is all that Mearsheimer and Walt ever wanted: an open discussion."
What they wanted to do was a hatchet job. According to Benny Morris "Their work is riddled with shoddiness and defiled by mendacity."
HAMAS has a charter that is against Israel, but it's only a charter; it's not a holy book, it's not the Koran. Maybe that's apocryphal, but look also at the charter of Likud on the Knesset site from 1996. The Likud charter says Israel has a right to settle all of the West Bank and Gaza, that the eastern border of Israel is the Jordan River, and that while Palestinians may have autonomous self-rule, they will never have an independent state. Does our Congress know this? I'm sure they know the HAMAS charter. Maybe, considering the new regime in Israel, what happened in GAZA recently, and Lebanon a few years ago, and in view of the beating war drums against Iran, it's time somebody gave them all a copy of the Likud charter. I guess it won't be Freeman.
Time for all to consider that the apartheid S Afrikkaners had to wrestle with their own religion before
volunteering to rewrite the template, and ask, isn't it time for Israelis to do the same? Not to mention
all those proclaimed God-fearing denizens of the USA congress and White House.
The key is how many in Congress can stand up to AIPAC?
It's not going to happen overnight. There will be a lot more disappointments than successes, especially initially.
But, that said, the tide is still turning. It can't be measured in the course of a few months, or perhaps even a few years. But it is happening.
According to Benny Morris "Their work is riddled with shoddiness and defiled by mendacity."
According to most honest historians, Benny Morris stopped telling the truth a long time ago.
@ Suzanne
I'm sure all the AIPAC orchestrated emails are still on computers. What legal way is there to get the applicable computers to cough them up? And the phone records too.
BTW–as a political entity in free America, the Zionist Lobby has every right to fight his appointment if they think it's a bad choice. Only a totalitarian-minded extremist would suggest otherwise.
The Dan Kellys of this world think America is Iran, apparently.
ooops! wrong thread…haha!
Query…he said there are traceable emails. Anybody can say anything. Who besides kool aid sheep would ever take an allegation like that at face value?
Either produce the so-called traceable emails or don't even bring it up. It's that simple.
Freeman made a complete ass out of himself. It's a good thing he's retiring. Maybe the media is trying to preserve the last shred of his dignity by not reporting this in depth.
@Susie Kneedler – I totally agree. The piece I heard this morning on NPR (whichever show it was) was wholly without any context of what was actually taking place.
So often it is in the omission of facts that the real story lies.
According to Benny Morris "Their work is riddled with shoddiness and defiled by mendacity."
Posted by: Julian
Julian you made a bald assertion a few days back that Israel opposed the US invasion of Iraq. That statement was shot down by at least 5 responses with relevant citations. Now this is another bald assertion (against the M&W lobby book). That book is about 500 pages. Can you come up with some examples here?
@ Suzanne
Since you always referring to people directly or by direct implication– by your rhetoric and vulgar name-calling on this site–both collectively, and individually, as haters of jews and/or Israel pure and simple, why don't you give us your traceable conduit data? If not, don't bring your stools up again. It's that simple. We rather discuss the issues the comments address than pretend to know the character of anyone interested enough to
post comments here.
Are all your posters Israeli first assholes like Suzanne? If that is your audience, why bother?
Julian,
As Walt & Mearsheimer point out in their response to their critics, Benny Morris' criticism of W&M contradicts his own previous writings on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Read p. 25-43 of the Walt & Mearsheimer response.
http://hbpub.vo.llnwd.net/o16/video/olmk/setting_the_record_straight.pdf
"In sum, there is hardly any difference between what we said about partition in our piece and what Morris has said about that subject in the past. Much of what Morris says about partition in the New Republic is at odds with his extensive
prior writings as well as the work of numerous other first-rate scholars who have written on the matter. Morris is certainly free to disagree with us today, but only by repudiating his prior scholarship."
Are all your posters Israeli first assholes like Suzanne? If that is your audience, why bother?
No, most of us are interested in constructive dialogue in regard to Palestine/Israel, the Israel Lobby, Zionism, etc.
Suzanne is one of only a few – chris berel and Julian being a couple others. They're easy to spot, and we ask that you simply ignore them and talk over them. They're only here to disrupt, not to engage in any sort of useful conversation.
Don't use "asshole" or other such terms, as they are grounds for banishment from the site. chris berel has been banned, but evidently uses an IP anonymizer or something, because he's able to continue to post.
Julian didn't read Walt and Mearsheimer's book, he let Benny Morris do the conclusion for him.
Suzanne: I definitely would like disclosure on the whole "email" incident. Why not make it public? As per my assessment, Freeman has had enough of being under scrutiny and that was his own parting shot. You may not agree to it, it may seem cheap, but he did take a flacking on his own. If you're curious, you don't have to email Daniel Pipes, as one asserted, just make a suggestion to Dan Fleshler. He is a very well-mannered person and would be more than welcome to inform yourself on his own source for this information.
But like I stated previously, this won't be the last we hear/read about this. More will come to light. Even Marty Peretz OPENLY boasts about "the Lobby" and its role in taking down Freeman. He's a kook but one cannot dismiss it outrightly, just be wary of it.
Fleshler's take on this is VERY, VERY interesting and really rings more towards realism than all this brutish "Lobby" thuggery.
Silverstein also questions how big of a role the Lobby played. They were encouraged but Schumer put the nail on Freeman's coffin, according to Silverstein. And that does look more and more like the truer picture here: Freeman was unphased UNTIL there was bipartisan support for his departure.
Silverstein also questions how big of a role the Lobby played. They were encouraged but Schumer put the nail on Freeman's coffin, according to Silverstein.
What's the distinction? Schumer is part and parcel of the Lobby.
Speaking of NPR, Morning Edition did a segment on Rahm this morning and there was not a single word about Rahmbo's "Passionate Attachment." ( Imagine if a White House Chief of Staff had gone to Saudi Arabia to fight for the Kingdom… We'd hear nothing else BUT talk of dual loyalty.) Wasn't Rahm's father involved in the assassination of Count Bernadote? Seems I heard he was but haven't been able to confirm it… I guess Mara Liasson didn't think listeners would be interested in that.
Falling out among thieves: Rosen is now suing AIPAC for defamation:
http://jta.org/news/article/2009/03/11/1003637/suspect-in-classified-information-case-sues-aipac-for-defamaton?ref=fp3
Wasn't Rahm's father involved in the assassination of Count Bernadote? Seems I heard he was but haven't been able to confirm it…
He was a member of the terrorist organization Irgun, which was involved.
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/11/rahm-emanuels-daddy-was-in-jewish-terrorist-organization.html
Falling out among thieves: Rosen is now suing AIPAC for defamation
"The core of the case is the repeated claims by Patrick Dorton, the outside spokesman for AIPAC named in the suit, that Rosen and Weissman were fired because they "did not comport with standards that AIPAC expects of all its employees.”
I can just hear Rosen now: "I did too comport with AIPAC standards!! I made sure classified U.S. security information got to Israel!! I did my job!!
Ex-AIPACer Rosen suing former employer for defamation
@ Dan Kelly | March 11, 2009 at 06:06 PM
I agree with Dan. A cursory examination of Senator Schumer's record shows clearly that he is a 'member' of the Lobby. It's very clear that it was behind Freeman's take down. Zionists, who do you think you are fooling? Your own partisans are crowing about their success lol! Talk of 'bipartisan' support somehow proving the Lobby's non-intervention or even non-existence is laughable. The Democratic Party is the Lobby party. While it has always had support in the Republican Party, the Bush 43 years were an anomaly viewed over the long-term.
"Schumer is part and parcel of the Lobby."
Isn't every Jewish Zionist member of Congress whose campaigns receive large contributions from fellow Jewish Zionists as a result of their support for Israel also a member of the Lobby?
In America, ethnic-interest underwritten/co-opted politicians may be a fact of life, but most of the other ethnicities draw the line at the borders (with the possible exception of La Raza politicians).
The Jewish Zionist underwritten members of Congress are actually being financed in order to do the bidding of a foreign country. And on top of that, they're voting to send American troops to fight wars on behalf of Israeli security/expansionism.
So we've got Jewish Zionists financing Jewish Zionist politicians who are turning American taxpayer money and (in effect) American troops over to Jewish Zionist Israel. It's outrageous.
Dan, I think it was Yitzhak Shamir's Stern Gang ("Lehi") that did it.
Menachem Begin's Irgun was not involved as far as I know… Gosh isn't it interesting how the leaders of terrorist militias end up becoming prime ministers of Israel? "What a country!" as Jakov Smirnov would have said… And these guys say over and over again ad nauseum "Israel will never negotiate with terrorists."
Isn't every Jewish Zionist member of Congress whose campaigns receive large contributions from fellow Jewish Zionists as a result of their support for Israel also a member of the Lobby?
I think so. I remember seeing a breakdown of all the Jewish members of Congress and their various affiliations with Israel and Israeli advocacy groups, etc. There were only a handful who had no obvious ties at all. I believe a couple of them (with no ties) were essentially Libertarians, or Libertarian-minded. I'll be damned if I can remember where I saw it, but I'll look for it, or maybe someone else can help out with a link.
So we've got Jewish Zionists financing Jewish Zionist politicians who are turning American taxpayer money and (in effect) American troops over to Jewish Zionist Israel. It's outrageous.
It's absolutely disgusting.
Hey, I'm all for insubordination here when it comes to "the Lobby" but it is difficult to decipher what motivates Schumer and other Congress members here. It's really tags more in line with what Tony Karon suggests here: everyone is aware of "the Lobby" and what they are capable of and some kow-tow without even a hesitation to think freely, and some are just darn outright full backers of Israel WITHOUT a Lobby at their backs. Look at Lieberman; the money helps him keep his spots the way they are but there really is no doubt that he supports Israel to a full-tilt without any help here.
Schumer could possibly be of the same kiln.
But that's a distinction which is always going to be a line that one has to tip-toe over: as much as we would love to damage those who gain support from such institutions, this thing HAPPENS all the time in Washington. Even Freeman was not clean here. As easy as it was for "the Lobby" to destroy him as a Chinese and Saudi puppet, it seems that's how simple the line of thinking is for the likes of Schumer and Dennis Ross (although with the latter two, they are of less integrtiy than Freeman, I digress).
Plus politicians are very much opportunists. This is how the game is played and they know how to further THEIR career, even at the behest of Palestinians (who's an easy punching bag).
It's disgusting.. but those clowns care more about getting re-elected that they do about israel or zionism. Grassroots action will turn this around.. the Obama Kool-Aid won't save us
The Bush family has ties to the Bin Laden family–no problem. Freeman? An Arabist? Bush even let the
9/11 Israeli spies and his Arab friends hi-tale it out in the immediate 9/11 aftermath. Clearly, Freeman
was too much "his own guy" and looking at what is best for all Americans. He had to go.
A root cause of the means that hijacked the USA is our campaign finance laws. And let's not ignore the Christian end-timers, about 30 million I think. Well get a load of the comments on this web site–looks like the alternative press is a gathering place, ever more as these things come to light: link to presstv.ir
BTW, most Americans have never even heard the term "the Israel lobby" or "The Lobby."
This is what neoconservativism and Zionism has led to in our country. Investigative reporter Seymour Hersh describes 'executive assassination ring' Any fools left who think neocons have been promoting democracy?
Breaking the Taboo on Israel's Spying Efforts on the United States
Thanks for the links, Colin.
Are all your posters Israeli first assholes like Suzanne? If that is your audience, why bother? Posted by: JohnQ | March 11, 2009 at 05:44 PM
um, John: asshole is not the first word that comes to mind when I try to visualise our Suzie, it really isn't.
Are all your posters Israeli first assholes like Suzanne? If that is your audience, why bother?
Posted by: JohnQ | March 11, 2009 at 05:44 PM
Most are antisemites, so post away. I'm sure you'll make many friends here
Bold statement.
Just html code.
If this blog is Israel firsters vs antisemites, no thanks. And compliments to Ms Suzanne for her energy.
yeah, Suzanne has a sort of bouncy quality.
if you know what I mean.
I am not sure why so many here think that AIPAC has to be "taken down" by Congress. The problem with vilifying AIPAC is that you are taking the position that Zionists and Jews have no right to a political viewpoint in this country. If you think this is the case, then no one should be allowed to have a PAC or a blog or free speech. Congress pays attention to AIPAC for the following reasons: (i) Voters support Israel and (ii) Israel supporters vote. Supporters of Israel see it, rightfully so in my opinion, as being forced to respond to homocidal neighbors who don't seem to want peace, even with territorial compromises. They also support Israel, because unlike many of its neighbors, (i) Israel doesn't hang homosexuals or prevent them from being openly gay in private or public life; (ii) Israel doesn't force its women to cover up or risk beatings and prison time for morals offenses; (iii) Israel permits people to believe in other religions than Judaism or no religion at all; (iv) Israel does not have conversion out of Judaism as a capital crime; (v) Israel supports women's rights; (vi) Israel has a very limited (mostly unused) capital punishment statute; (vii) Israel has a mostly secular society; (viii) Israeli research institutions are among the best in the civilized world and have produced medical breakthroughs and scientific advances that are of use to, and are shared with, the world; (ix) Israeli textbooks do not vilify Arabs or call them "pigs and apes" – the opposite is true in Palestinian textbooks and childrens' television shows vis a vis Jews; and (x) Jews are minority with a separate culture that was nearly destroyed by the Arab and European world in the past century and people recognize that Israeli civilization would be dead without the tiny landmass of Israel while Arab culture (such as it is with "honor killings", racism and repression) would still thrive without the Gaza or West Bank which make up less than 0.05% of the total landmass governed by Islamic regimes (and where most of the Jews in Israel now had their immediate origins).
If you hate Israel and love the society of Islamofacist states, that is regrettable but permitted. Vote and stop complaining about AIPAC conspiracies or strangle holds. But don't pretend that Mearsheimer and Walt are great scholars because they produced a racist-tinged screed and that all other viewpoints in this country are stifled. If you are truly for honor killings, maiming of your political opponents, misogyny, homophobia, anti-secularism, global war against infidels, and inculcating young children with ideas of martyrdom and murder, then, please, bring these fantastic ideas to your representatives with your own PAC.
HF lays it all out: he sold me! Now I want to move to a settlement in Judea or Samaria and carry powerful weapons and help spread ethical monotheism!
Charles W. Freeman Jr. will be the last American patriot willing to serve the best interest of the American people to be cut down by a foreign government and their proxies in Washington. From Steve Rosen, who will soon be on trial, to Charles Schumer, who will soon be an ex-Senator, Mr. Freeman faced a critical assault even the President could not match.
Rosen, the gutless creep that he is, essentially a traitor, will most likely be found guilty for passing secrets to a foreign government. Schumer, who has made an art of not protecting the interests of his constituents, will probably go into real estate, like the ex-Governor of New York.
That leaves Freeman, a career diplomat with a C.V. Dennis Ross would kvel to have, out of work and out of luck.
His crime? Having an opinion based upon a mounting stream of verifiable, empirical data. Ever since the landmark white paper by Mearsheimer and Walt was published, it has become a de facto crime to be slightly or strongly opposed to certain Israeli policies, such as the mass murder of civilians.
The ugly truth is that U.S. tax dollars supply much of the weaponry and President Bush should have cut off all aid to Israel, as required under federal law, once the cluster bombs and white phosphorous artillery shells were used to tear through the life and limb of innocents in Gaza. But he did not follow the law or any form of morality.
So Freeman will be a turning point – just as we may have reached "peak oil" we may also have reached "peak Israel." With a brutish right wing group of thugs assuming control of the largest recipient of U.S. aid there may very well be a quiet revolt that turns into a tsunami.
Thank you for your service Mr. Freeman, I wish we had your understanding of the region working for the United States, but that is not to be… for now.