Comments on: What ‘J Street’ is up against http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html The War of Ideas in the Middle East Tue, 14 Feb 2012 14:18:06 +0000 hourly 1 By: doppler http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html/comment-page-1#comment-24720 doppler Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/17/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html#comment-24720 <p>If progressive Jews want to have non-Jews work with them, them have to stop enabling the Anti-Semitism smearers, which happens every time the smears against Walt, Mearsheimer, Carter, Freeman, go unrejected by loud Jewish voices. It is not enough to disagree with the smears. They must be denounced. Often, and loud enough that no objective journalist can report the smear without reporting the denunciations.</p> <p>Otherwise, you're just trying to alter the agenda but not the effectiveness of the Lobby.</p> If progressive Jews want to have non-Jews work with them, them have to stop enabling the Anti-Semitism smearers, which happens every time the smears against Walt, Mearsheimer, Carter, Freeman, go unrejected by loud Jewish voices. It is not enough to disagree with the smears. They must be denounced. Often, and loud enough that no objective journalist can report the smear without reporting the denunciations.

Otherwise, you're just trying to alter the agenda but not the effectiveness of the Lobby.

]]> By: Dan Kelly http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html/comment-page-1#comment-24721 Dan Kelly Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/17/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html#comment-24721 <p><i>Eisner asked Alterman to name a situation in which the two countries' interests diverge. Alterman stumbled a bit before coming to this example: that bin Laden and the 9/11 terrorists were "to some degree inspired" by the U.S. relationship to Israel. The general environment of "terrorist attacks" and the "pool" of supporters for terrorism obviously draws on the the U.S.-Israel relationship.</p> <p>"Dammit, if that's the price we have to pay [for the special relationship], let's pay it... But let's be honest about it."</p> <p>I wonder: how many Americans would share that view? </i></p> <p>This is mind-boggling. </p> <p>Phil, thank you bringing this to light. </p> <p>Eric Alterman is a "liberal". Most of his readers probably think of him as a humanist, or something similar. How many of his readers are aware of these feelings that he holds? Would Alterman write this in The Nation, or will he only bring it up in a Jewish meeting?</p> <p><i>How many Americans would Alterman trust to reach the same conclusion he has: that 9/11 was worth it for Israel's sake? I think fewer than half, especially if you told them about the checkpoints and the lives of Palestinians.</i><br /> Phil, there's no way it's even close to half. It's the majority of the Jewish community and maybe a few others, and that's it. It's not even 10 percent. I know you're going to say that there are millions of Christian Zionists who've been led to believe that Israel has to flourish so that their own religious fantasies will come true, but the 9/11 scenario has never been put in that light for them. If you ask Christian Zionists if the murder of over 3000 innocent Americans on 9/11 was worth it for Israel's sake, the majority of them are going to say no. There may be some hardened ones who join Alterman in his insanity (I don't know what else to call it), but the majority will not agree that it "was worth it". Not if it's put directly in that light. </p> Eisner asked Alterman to name a situation in which the two countries' interests diverge. Alterman stumbled a bit before coming to this example: that bin Laden and the 9/11 terrorists were "to some degree inspired" by the U.S. relationship to Israel. The general environment of "terrorist attacks" and the "pool" of supporters for terrorism obviously draws on the the U.S.-Israel relationship.

"Dammit, if that's the price we have to pay [for the special relationship], let's pay it… But let's be honest about it."

I wonder: how many Americans would share that view?

This is mind-boggling.

Phil, thank you bringing this to light.

Eric Alterman is a "liberal". Most of his readers probably think of him as a humanist, or something similar. How many of his readers are aware of these feelings that he holds? Would Alterman write this in The Nation, or will he only bring it up in a Jewish meeting?

How many Americans would Alterman trust to reach the same conclusion he has: that 9/11 was worth it for Israel's sake? I think fewer than half, especially if you told them about the checkpoints and the lives of Palestinians.
Phil, there's no way it's even close to half. It's the majority of the Jewish community and maybe a few others, and that's it. It's not even 10 percent. I know you're going to say that there are millions of Christian Zionists who've been led to believe that Israel has to flourish so that their own religious fantasies will come true, but the 9/11 scenario has never been put in that light for them. If you ask Christian Zionists if the murder of over 3000 innocent Americans on 9/11 was worth it for Israel's sake, the majority of them are going to say no. There may be some hardened ones who join Alterman in his insanity (I don't know what else to call it), but the majority will not agree that it "was worth it". Not if it's put directly in that light.

]]> By: Richard Witty http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html/comment-page-1#comment-24722 Richard Witty Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/17/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html#comment-24722 <p>You know that I am a strong opponent of the question of "dual loyalty" being raised at all even.</p> <p>American Jews in general are law-abiding, taxpaying citizens, and by definition are then entitled to full civil rights in all respects in this society, INCLUDING by definition qualification for any elected or any vetted office.</p> <p>The only conflict to that is where "conflict of interest" can be demonstrated, and that should be assessed on a case by case basis, with clear and consistent criteria.</p> <p>Anything less than that standard of accountability both ways, and of language, is FASCIST.</p> <p>Again, it is wonderful that a black child can now dream plausibly of being President. According to the theory that a Jew, a Zionist Jew, is suspect at all on the basis of their Judaism means that the same statement is not applicable to my talented and intelligent Jewish children.</p> <p><br /> I agree that liberals are disturbed by the new face of Israel, as that creates a context of rather than two willing partners for peace with a political maze that each has to run in order to achieve it, with Hamas unconditional rejection of Israel, and Likud's unconditional rejection of Palestine, there are NO partners for peace.</p> <p>There are however, three pairs of partners for war. Israel-Hezbollah, Israel-Hamas, Israel-Iran.</p> <p>My contention is that Hamas elected Netanyahu, that without the resumption of shelling of civilians following the end of the formal cease-fire, the knesset would be 10+ seats to the left, the difference between a Kadima/Labor coalition and Likud/Israel Beitanyu.</p> <p>And, that they knew they would have that effect, as its happened a dozen times in the past.</p> <p>Why I don't know. Why they couldn't wait a month to start shelling, I don't know.</p> You know that I am a strong opponent of the question of "dual loyalty" being raised at all even.

American Jews in general are law-abiding, taxpaying citizens, and by definition are then entitled to full civil rights in all respects in this society, INCLUDING by definition qualification for any elected or any vetted office.

The only conflict to that is where "conflict of interest" can be demonstrated, and that should be assessed on a case by case basis, with clear and consistent criteria.

Anything less than that standard of accountability both ways, and of language, is FASCIST.

Again, it is wonderful that a black child can now dream plausibly of being President. According to the theory that a Jew, a Zionist Jew, is suspect at all on the basis of their Judaism means that the same statement is not applicable to my talented and intelligent Jewish children.

I agree that liberals are disturbed by the new face of Israel, as that creates a context of rather than two willing partners for peace with a political maze that each has to run in order to achieve it, with Hamas unconditional rejection of Israel, and Likud's unconditional rejection of Palestine, there are NO partners for peace.

There are however, three pairs of partners for war. Israel-Hezbollah, Israel-Hamas, Israel-Iran.

My contention is that Hamas elected Netanyahu, that without the resumption of shelling of civilians following the end of the formal cease-fire, the knesset would be 10+ seats to the left, the difference between a Kadima/Labor coalition and Likud/Israel Beitanyu.

And, that they knew they would have that effect, as its happened a dozen times in the past.

Why I don't know. Why they couldn't wait a month to start shelling, I don't know.

]]> By: Susie Kneedler http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html/comment-page-1#comment-24723 Susie Kneedler Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/17/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html#comment-24723 <p>"[H]ere you have a leftish community and there was virtually nothing said all night about the horrors of Palestinian existence. The Gaza slaughter, unmentioned. White phosphorus, nothing. The checkpoints. The shooting of Tristan Anderson or the killing of Rachel Corrie--a whole universe, unmentioned. I felt unreflected. The liberals, Alterman and Goldberg, don't speak for me."</p> <p>Thanks, Phil: You're a truly humane person with a great conscience, and you make exactly the "apt" points.</p> <p>Thanks, doppler and Dan, too, for your wise thoughts. </p> <p> </p> "[H]ere you have a leftish community and there was virtually nothing said all night about the horrors of Palestinian existence. The Gaza slaughter, unmentioned. White phosphorus, nothing. The checkpoints. The shooting of Tristan Anderson or the killing of Rachel Corrie–a whole universe, unmentioned. I felt unreflected. The liberals, Alterman and Goldberg, don't speak for me."

Thanks, Phil: You're a truly humane person with a great conscience, and you make exactly the "apt" points.

Thanks, doppler and Dan, too, for your wise thoughts.

]]> By: Rowan http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html/comment-page-1#comment-24724 Rowan Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/17/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html#comment-24724 <p>I would be interested to know why you don't feel it necessary to define "gallivanting". I think that the vagueness and underlying absurdity of this term is what makes it useful to them, so it should be obvious to you that you can defuse it simply by defining it clinically. Yet, you let it slide, twice.</p> I would be interested to know why you don't feel it necessary to define "gallivanting". I think that the vagueness and underlying absurdity of this term is what makes it useful to them, so it should be obvious to you that you can defuse it simply by defining it clinically. Yet, you let it slide, twice.

]]> By: Mooser http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html/comment-page-1#comment-24725 Mooser Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/17/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html#comment-24725 <p><i>"Of course there's dual loyalty to Israel. He was raised with it. In Hebrew school, they were told they had to be supportive of Israel. At 14, on his first trip to Israel, at the behest of the ZOA, it was drilled into him that he should always do what was best for Israel."</i></p> <p>Okay, and there are literally millions of American Christian kids being told right now in Sunday School that the precepts of the Christian religion should have legal force in the United States. Do you expect them to be as slavishly devoted to that? You don't expect them to question that?<br /> I mean, after all, Israel is "The Jewish State", why shouldn't America be "The Christian State"?</p> "Of course there's dual loyalty to Israel. He was raised with it. In Hebrew school, they were told they had to be supportive of Israel. At 14, on his first trip to Israel, at the behest of the ZOA, it was drilled into him that he should always do what was best for Israel."

Okay, and there are literally millions of American Christian kids being told right now in Sunday School that the precepts of the Christian religion should have legal force in the United States. Do you expect them to be as slavishly devoted to that? You don't expect them to question that?
I mean, after all, Israel is "The Jewish State", why shouldn't America be "The Christian State"?

]]> By: Mooser http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html/comment-page-1#comment-24726 Mooser Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/17/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html#comment-24726 <p><i>My contention is that Hamas elected Netanyahu,</i><br /> Richard Witty</p> <p>Classic! Perfect! Ten points for the best "No.2 (Arabs Suck, constructed out of entirely imaginary events) I've seen in my puff, anyway! And you did it out of the whole cloth, and nothing but!</p> <p>So how did the voting go in Gaza? Come off peacefully? No hint of electoral fraud? </p> <p>Yes sir, that's the beautiful thing about those whole strength-of-will style ideologies, you can just fly off into the blue anytime you want. If you dare to dream it, all that. </p> My contention is that Hamas elected Netanyahu,
Richard Witty

Classic! Perfect! Ten points for the best "No.2 (Arabs Suck, constructed out of entirely imaginary events) I've seen in my puff, anyway! And you did it out of the whole cloth, and nothing but!

So how did the voting go in Gaza? Come off peacefully? No hint of electoral fraud?

Yes sir, that's the beautiful thing about those whole strength-of-will style ideologies, you can just fly off into the blue anytime you want. If you dare to dream it, all that.

]]> By: fultronix http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html/comment-page-1#comment-24727 fultronix Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/17/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html#comment-24727 <p>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/the-agonies-of-a-tortured-palestinian-soul/</p> http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/the-agonies-of-a-tortured-palestinian-soul/

]]> By: cross http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html/comment-page-1#comment-24728 cross Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/17/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html#comment-24728 <p>Witty has obviously not addressed the points summarized by Susie Kneedler, all points dripping goy blood .</p> Witty has obviously not addressed the points summarized by Susie Kneedler, all points dripping goy blood .

]]> By: Mooser http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html/comment-page-1#comment-24729 Mooser Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/17/as-any-regular-visitor-to-this-site-knows-i-am-confused-about-my-relationship-to-jewish-communal-life-i-say-that-i-am-assim.html#comment-24729 <p> <i>"According to the theory that a Jew, a Zionist Jew, is suspect at all on the basis of their Judaism means that the same statement is not applicable to my talented and intelligent Jewish children."</i></p> <p>Richard, they made a law saying Zionist Jews cannot run for President? My God, that's horrible! What is this country coming to?</p> <p>Richard, please don't worry, when your "talented and intelligent Jewish children" (Good Lord, I wonder what the Jewish Children in Lake Woebegone are like! Little Einsteins, every one!) turn 35, they should run for President on a Zionist platform. I'm sure they will do very well! Nothing will stop them except lack of votes or questions about their campaign financing!</p> <p>Let slip the poodles of Wah and cry anti-semitism!</p> "According to the theory that a Jew, a Zionist Jew, is suspect at all on the basis of their Judaism means that the same statement is not applicable to my talented and intelligent Jewish children."

Richard, they made a law saying Zionist Jews cannot run for President? My God, that's horrible! What is this country coming to?

Richard, please don't worry, when your "talented and intelligent Jewish children" (Good Lord, I wonder what the Jewish Children in Lake Woebegone are like! Little Einsteins, every one!) turn 35, they should run for President on a Zionist platform. I'm sure they will do very well! Nothing will stop them except lack of votes or questions about their campaign financing!

Let slip the poodles of Wah and cry anti-semitism!

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