Comments on: Stunner: Walzer says US must put ‘heavy pressure’ on Israel to ‘defeat the settler movement’ and pull the colonists http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html The War of Ideas in the Middle East Tue, 14 Feb 2012 15:15:43 +0000 hourly 1 By: Julian http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html/comment-page-1#comment-26990 Julian Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/08/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html#comment-26990 <p>Walzer:<br /> "...But Hamas is obviously not “ready” for negotiations and not ready to get ready. Its refusal to recognize Israel and its commitment to terrorism are, for now at least, central features of its identity. So, I am afraid, is its rabid anti-Semitism: the Hamas Charter reiterates an ancient hatred that long predates the Zionist project and the wars of 1948 and 1967. It solemnly insists that the Jews as a people are responsible for the French and Russian revolutions and for the two World Wars. And that’s part of the message delivered every day and every week in Hamas schools and mosques—which is not a sign of readiness. Perhaps we need to think about a three state solution, with only two of those states—Israel and the PA’s West Bank—preparing themselves for peaceful co-existence"</p> <p>I agree with Walzer. Hamas is far from being ready for peace.</p> Walzer:
"…But Hamas is obviously not “ready” for negotiations and not ready to get ready. Its refusal to recognize Israel and its commitment to terrorism are, for now at least, central features of its identity. So, I am afraid, is its rabid anti-Semitism: the Hamas Charter reiterates an ancient hatred that long predates the Zionist project and the wars of 1948 and 1967. It solemnly insists that the Jews as a people are responsible for the French and Russian revolutions and for the two World Wars. And that’s part of the message delivered every day and every week in Hamas schools and mosques—which is not a sign of readiness. Perhaps we need to think about a three state solution, with only two of those states—Israel and the PA’s West Bank—preparing themselves for peaceful co-existence"

I agree with Walzer. Hamas is far from being ready for peace.

]]> By: Jim Haygood http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html/comment-page-1#comment-26991 Jim Haygood Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/08/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html#comment-26991 <p>Walzer says --</p> <p>There isn’t any other solution [than the two-state one]; this one is unique. People keep coming back to it because there’s no other way to go. It survives, therefore, I guess, it’s viable.</p> <p>In the international system, states can help make new states and give them legitimacy; they can’t abolish states to which they have already given legitimacy (as Israel would have to be abolished for the sake of a one-state solution).</p> <p>------------</p> <p>This is just laughable. Apartheid South Africa said an eleven-state solution (white South Africa plus ten bantustans) was 'the only way to go.' It turned out to be a joke -- bad economics, bad politics, no international recognition. I remember a woman from Denmark, in front of me in the Customs line, openly mocking a Transkei border guard -- 'Why do I have to present my passport to be stamped at your silly internal border?' Then the whole Rube Goldberg contraption came clattering down.</p> <p>Just as apartheid South Africa was reconstituted with all its land area, and redefined as a one-person/one-vote democracy, there is no reason that the Israeli state and the occupied territories can't be likewise geographically and politically reconstituted. The preceding Palestinian protectorate had defined boundaries; Israel doesn't. Walzer's so-called 'international system' is just so much smoke-blowing sophistry.</p> <p>Where has Walzer been for the last forty years, while the settlements were inexorably expanded? Better late than never, but he's still making unrealistic, grudging concessions in a futile effort to retain a zionist dream which has already been overtaken by events. As well as imagining that America and Europe are going to bully the parties into his imagined solution, much as he 'air-conducts' Beethoven's Ninth in his claustrophic little living room. Silly, silly scribbler.</p> <p>Like 19th century Americans, who simply couldn't imagine Negros participating in government as cultural or intellectual equals, Walzer is a closed-minded supremacist Jew whose ingrained prejudices preclude ever co-existing with Arabs. That such bizarre antiquarian eugenicists even get a public platform in the 21st century is a major reason why 22nd century commentators will regard us askance as exotic, benighted primitives. Oh well, at least we had rhythm. </p> Walzer says –

There isn’t any other solution [than the two-state one]; this one is unique. People keep coming back to it because there’s no other way to go. It survives, therefore, I guess, it’s viable.

In the international system, states can help make new states and give them legitimacy; they can’t abolish states to which they have already given legitimacy (as Israel would have to be abolished for the sake of a one-state solution).

————

This is just laughable. Apartheid South Africa said an eleven-state solution (white South Africa plus ten bantustans) was 'the only way to go.' It turned out to be a joke — bad economics, bad politics, no international recognition. I remember a woman from Denmark, in front of me in the Customs line, openly mocking a Transkei border guard — 'Why do I have to present my passport to be stamped at your silly internal border?' Then the whole Rube Goldberg contraption came clattering down.

Just as apartheid South Africa was reconstituted with all its land area, and redefined as a one-person/one-vote democracy, there is no reason that the Israeli state and the occupied territories can't be likewise geographically and politically reconstituted. The preceding Palestinian protectorate had defined boundaries; Israel doesn't. Walzer's so-called 'international system' is just so much smoke-blowing sophistry.

Where has Walzer been for the last forty years, while the settlements were inexorably expanded? Better late than never, but he's still making unrealistic, grudging concessions in a futile effort to retain a zionist dream which has already been overtaken by events. As well as imagining that America and Europe are going to bully the parties into his imagined solution, much as he 'air-conducts' Beethoven's Ninth in his claustrophic little living room. Silly, silly scribbler.

Like 19th century Americans, who simply couldn't imagine Negros participating in government as cultural or intellectual equals, Walzer is a closed-minded supremacist Jew whose ingrained prejudices preclude ever co-existing with Arabs. That such bizarre antiquarian eugenicists even get a public platform in the 21st century is a major reason why 22nd century commentators will regard us askance as exotic, benighted primitives. Oh well, at least we had rhythm.

]]> By: William Burns http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html/comment-page-1#comment-26992 William Burns Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/08/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html#comment-26992 <p>The PA has repressed terrorism in the territories it controls. Fat lot of good its done them.</p> The PA has repressed terrorism in the territories it controls. Fat lot of good its done them.

]]> By: Richard Witty http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html/comment-page-1#comment-26993 Richard Witty Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/08/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html#comment-26993 <p>Its done a great deal of good for their own order.</p> Its done a great deal of good for their own order.

]]> By: Richard Witty http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html/comment-page-1#comment-26994 Richard Witty Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/08/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html#comment-26994 <p>Urgency is relevant.</p> <p>I don't see that Israel will be able to forcefully remove 250,000 or even 50,000 if 80% willingly return to Israel.</p> <p>50,000 could stay as citizens of Palestine. Maybe that prospect would motivate them to take up the offer to resettle in Israel.</p> <p>Its NOT a simple problem.</p> <p>Another element of it is the question of opportunist taking of developed real estate in a yard sale.</p> <p>In Germany, when Jews were forcefully removed from their homes, with a couple weeks to sell, the claim was that they were recent immigrants that it was not their home in any meaningful way and that the forced taking was legal.</p> <p>In opposition to a likely illegal forced taking of land, is it just to propose a forced taking of land and building?</p> Urgency is relevant.

I don't see that Israel will be able to forcefully remove 250,000 or even 50,000 if 80% willingly return to Israel.

50,000 could stay as citizens of Palestine. Maybe that prospect would motivate them to take up the offer to resettle in Israel.

Its NOT a simple problem.

Another element of it is the question of opportunist taking of developed real estate in a yard sale.

In Germany, when Jews were forcefully removed from their homes, with a couple weeks to sell, the claim was that they were recent immigrants that it was not their home in any meaningful way and that the forced taking was legal.

In opposition to a likely illegal forced taking of land, is it just to propose a forced taking of land and building?

]]> By: MRW. http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html/comment-page-1#comment-26995 MRW. Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/08/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html#comment-26995 <p><b>Nice post, Jim</b></p> Nice post, Jim

]]> By: LeaNder http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html/comment-page-1#comment-26996 LeaNder Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/08/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html#comment-26996 <p><i>Another element of it is the question of opportunist taking of developed real estate in a yard sale</i></p> <p>I have absolutely no doubt if the settlers leave the IDF will blow up everything that is left behind. How was it handled in Gaza?</p> <p>I often read in Nazi laws concerning the Jews. The legal department here has a complete collection. I absolutely doubt the claim was "they were recent immigrants".</p> <p>Concerning Jewish business which started earlier the process was called Aryanization. A forced expropriation, business had to be sold much under value. Basically the made a difference between citizens and citizens of the Reich early (Reichsbürger - Staatsbürger) what you allude to must have to do with this basic differentiation, Jews obviously didn't have the rights of the "Reichsbürger". I guess the trick was to make them pay for their deportation. Many profited from the sales. The surviving files surfaced really late, I remember.</p> <p>But interesting that you immediately compare the settlers with the forced expropriation of Jews in Nazigermany. Couldn't the Palestinians talk about expropriation too?</p> Another element of it is the question of opportunist taking of developed real estate in a yard sale

I have absolutely no doubt if the settlers leave the IDF will blow up everything that is left behind. How was it handled in Gaza?

I often read in Nazi laws concerning the Jews. The legal department here has a complete collection. I absolutely doubt the claim was "they were recent immigrants".

Concerning Jewish business which started earlier the process was called Aryanization. A forced expropriation, business had to be sold much under value. Basically the made a difference between citizens and citizens of the Reich early (Reichsbürger – Staatsbürger) what you allude to must have to do with this basic differentiation, Jews obviously didn't have the rights of the "Reichsbürger". I guess the trick was to make them pay for their deportation. Many profited from the sales. The surviving files surfaced really late, I remember.

But interesting that you immediately compare the settlers with the forced expropriation of Jews in Nazigermany. Couldn't the Palestinians talk about expropriation too?

]]> By: Jonty Gilbert http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html/comment-page-1#comment-26997 Jonty Gilbert Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/08/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html#comment-26997 <p>Malcolm Hoenlein and the rest of the Jewish establishment have proven to be bad for the Jews and bad for Israel. They are corrupt and their main driving force is their ego's. Why do they even appear in such articles. Malcolm Hoenlein has lost all of his Jewish credibility, and will soon be long forgotten. </p> <p>BTW- Did anyone hear about the Friends of the IDF paying millions of dollars to a consultant? That is a complete misuse of charity money. The worst part is nobody is speaking out against these shameful acts by various Jewish organizations and the notorious Malcolm Hoenlein. </p> Malcolm Hoenlein and the rest of the Jewish establishment have proven to be bad for the Jews and bad for Israel. They are corrupt and their main driving force is their ego's. Why do they even appear in such articles. Malcolm Hoenlein has lost all of his Jewish credibility, and will soon be long forgotten.

BTW- Did anyone hear about the Friends of the IDF paying millions of dollars to a consultant? That is a complete misuse of charity money. The worst part is nobody is speaking out against these shameful acts by various Jewish organizations and the notorious Malcolm Hoenlein.

]]> By: Citizen http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html/comment-page-1#comment-26998 Citizen Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/08/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html#comment-26998 <p>LeaNder read my mind. Will Witty respond? Ball in his court.</p> LeaNder read my mind. Will Witty respond? Ball in his court.

]]> By: Chris Berel http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html/comment-page-1#comment-26999 Chris Berel Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/08/stunner-walzer-calls-on-us-to-heavily-pressure-israel-to-defeat-the-settler-movement-and-pull-the-co.html#comment-26999 <p>I have absolutely no doubt if the settlers leave the IDF will blow up everything that is left behind. How was it handled in Gaza?<br /> Posted by: LeaNder | March 08, 2009 at 08:45 PM </p> <p><b>In accordance with the democratically elected government of the palestinian people:</b></p> <p><br /> ISRAEL will destroy the 1,200 houses to be vacated when the Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip are evacuated this summer, Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, said yesterday. <br /> Israel had feared the symbolism of Hamas flags flying from the red-roofed bungalows, but the Army was reluctant to demolish the houses because it would put soldiers’ lives at risk. </p> <p>Palestinians say they want the houses to be replaced by high-rise blocks to alleviate overcrowding among the 1.3 million population in Gaza. </p> <p>“It was their choice,” Mark Regev, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, said. “If they wanted (the houses), they could have had them.” </p> <p>Details of the demolition have yet to be worked out with the aid of James Wolfensohn, the American economic envoy, but the houses are likely to be demolished immediately after the withdrawal, while the Palestinian Authority will remove the rubble to create temporary jobs. </p> <p>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article535345.ece</p> I have absolutely no doubt if the settlers leave the IDF will blow up everything that is left behind. How was it handled in Gaza?
Posted by: LeaNder | March 08, 2009 at 08:45 PM

In accordance with the democratically elected government of the palestinian people:

ISRAEL will destroy the 1,200 houses to be vacated when the Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip are evacuated this summer, Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, said yesterday.
Israel had feared the symbolism of Hamas flags flying from the red-roofed bungalows, but the Army was reluctant to demolish the houses because it would put soldiers’ lives at risk.

Palestinians say they want the houses to be replaced by high-rise blocks to alleviate overcrowding among the 1.3 million population in Gaza.

“It was their choice,” Mark Regev, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, said. “If they wanted (the houses), they could have had them.”

Details of the demolition have yet to be worked out with the aid of James Wolfensohn, the American economic envoy, but the houses are likely to be demolished immediately after the withdrawal, while the Palestinian Authority will remove the rubble to create temporary jobs.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article535345.ece

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