Comments on: 2 days and counting: ‘NY Times’ fails to correct Israeli gov’t misrepresentations about the killing of a demonstrator http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html The War of Ideas in the Middle East Tue, 14 Feb 2012 15:27:03 +0000 hourly 1 By: MRW. http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-17589 MRW. Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/19/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html#comment-17589 <p>Dont hold your breath. With the NYPost become JPost West, NYC will soon become the journalistic equivalent of Bil'in itself.</p> Dont hold your breath. With the NYPost become JPost West, NYC will soon become the journalistic equivalent of Bil'in itself.

]]> By: syvanen http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-17590 syvanen Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/19/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html#comment-17590 <p><i>that Abu Rahma was doing nothing but shouting when he was killed.</i></p> <p>Maybe all he was doing is shouting, but he had stepped across a line that the Israelis had defined as a line they shouldn't cross. Therefore, the fact that he was just shouting is not a defense against his defiance against the rules.<br /> </p> that Abu Rahma was doing nothing but shouting when he was killed.

Maybe all he was doing is shouting, but he had stepped across a line that the Israelis had defined as a line they shouldn't cross. Therefore, the fact that he was just shouting is not a defense against his defiance against the rules.

]]> By: syvanen http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-17591 syvanen Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/19/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html#comment-17591 <p><i>Imagine if the Times had said that the National Guardsmen at Kent State University were provoked by student violence in May 1970, when they gunned down four students. </i></p> <p>I remember those days. Do not recall what the NYT had to say but there is no doubt both the state of Ohio and the US government did defend the National Guard that they had been provoked. Just like the Palestinian nonviolent protesters are provoking the Israeli authorities.<br /> </p> Imagine if the Times had said that the National Guardsmen at Kent State University were provoked by student violence in May 1970, when they gunned down four students.

I remember those days. Do not recall what the NYT had to say but there is no doubt both the state of Ohio and the US government did defend the National Guard that they had been provoked. Just like the Palestinian nonviolent protesters are provoking the Israeli authorities.

]]> By: fultronix http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-17592 fultronix Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/19/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html#comment-17592 <p>I will draw a line in your yard - shout across it and I will kill you.</p> <p>"..nonviolent protesters are provoking the Israeli authorities."</p> <p>utterly brilliant</p> I will draw a line in your yard – shout across it and I will kill you.

"..nonviolent protesters are provoking the Israeli authorities."

utterly brilliant

]]> By: Ana Sanchez http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-17593 Ana Sanchez Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/19/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html#comment-17593 <p>Syvanen, did you watch the video? There are 2 barbed wire fences and the guy that was shot was behind them both. There are other protesters way in front of him that had crossed one of the fences but they didn't get shot. They must have decided to shoot him instead because of what he said. The "defiance against the rules" that you speak of must be that he was a Palestinian who refused to keep his mouth shut.</p> Syvanen, did you watch the video? There are 2 barbed wire fences and the guy that was shot was behind them both. There are other protesters way in front of him that had crossed one of the fences but they didn't get shot. They must have decided to shoot him instead because of what he said. The "defiance against the rules" that you speak of must be that he was a Palestinian who refused to keep his mouth shut.

]]> By: Citizen http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-17594 Citizen Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/19/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html#comment-17594 <p> syvanen--Here's the NY Times on the Kent State shootings:<br /> http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0504.html#article</p> <p>Ana, you are also correct.</p> syvanen–Here's the NY Times on the Kent State shootings:
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/19/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html#comment-17595 <p>Capital crime: speaking.</p> <p>Democracy, following Israeli rules: actions speak louder than words; might makes right.</p> Capital crime: speaking.

Democracy, following Israeli rules: actions speak louder than words; might makes right.

]]> By: syvanen http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-17596 syvanen Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/19/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html#comment-17596 <p><br /> Citizen, thanks for the link. And as our president said in response:</p> <p>"This should remind us all once again that when dissent turns to violence it invites tragedy. It is my hope that this tragic and unfortunate incident will strengthen the determination of all the nation's campuses, administrators, faculty and students alike to stand firmly for the right which exists in this country of peaceful dissent and just as strong against the resort to violence as a means of such expression."</p> <p><br /> And yes, the the point was that the violence in this case rested with the protesters. They deserved what they had coming to them. Just like the Palestinians deserve the same fate.</p> <p>Most do not realize what was going on at that time. It was only later that this event was characterized as a blow against the war (which it most definitely was) but at the time those of us who taken our politics into the streets were quite aware that the state was not our ally.</p> Citizen, thanks for the link. And as our president said in response:

"This should remind us all once again that when dissent turns to violence it invites tragedy. It is my hope that this tragic and unfortunate incident will strengthen the determination of all the nation's campuses, administrators, faculty and students alike to stand firmly for the right which exists in this country of peaceful dissent and just as strong against the resort to violence as a means of such expression."

And yes, the the point was that the violence in this case rested with the protesters. They deserved what they had coming to them. Just like the Palestinians deserve the same fate.

Most do not realize what was going on at that time. It was only later that this event was characterized as a blow against the war (which it most definitely was) but at the time those of us who taken our politics into the streets were quite aware that the state was not our ally.

]]> By: Tuyzentfloot http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-17597 Tuyzentfloot Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/19/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html#comment-17597 <p>There seems to be no awareness that there is such a thing of nonviolent palestinian protest. The official narrative of some people in the IDF reasonably overreacting to aggression , is not challenged. Now I'm convinced that the message to Palestinians is that that the IDF will be very violent anyway so what's the difference, but still there's protest that is not or hardly violent from the Palestinian side. And it's hardly visible. What I would like to see, and maybe it exists, is a site that collects these actions and makes them more visible. I even wonder if some recognizable 'nonviolent resistance' flag/label would be a good idea for such manifestations. It's a matter of scale and visibility.</p> There seems to be no awareness that there is such a thing of nonviolent palestinian protest. The official narrative of some people in the IDF reasonably overreacting to aggression , is not challenged. Now I'm convinced that the message to Palestinians is that that the IDF will be very violent anyway so what's the difference, but still there's protest that is not or hardly violent from the Palestinian side. And it's hardly visible. What I would like to see, and maybe it exists, is a site that collects these actions and makes them more visible. I even wonder if some recognizable 'nonviolent resistance' flag/label would be a good idea for such manifestations. It's a matter of scale and visibility.

]]> By: LD http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html/comment-page-1#comment-17598 LD Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/19/2-days-and-counting-ny-times-fails-to-correct-israeli-govt-misrepresentations-about-the-killing-of-a.html#comment-17598 <p>Absolute nonsense, syvanen.</p> <p>Your argument only makes sense if we agree to the premise that the State was enforcing justice. It was enforcing it's POLICY.</p> <p>The Israeli government's policies are all justified by the Israeli government. It's not about justice, it's about interests.</p> <p>The whole of the OT - Gaza/WB/East J. - are all Palestinian territory.</p> <p>They are protesting the INJUSTICE carried out on THEIR LAND.</p> <p>What were the IDF soldiers doing? Were they just? No, they were enforcing policy. They are mall cops.</p> <p>The Palestinians (and especially the man killed) weren't provoking anyone. </p> <p>The IDF is a criminal Army that works for a criminal State. That is the proper characterization.</p> <p>All this legal SPITTLE is meaningless. </p> <p>Furthermore, without even getting into all of this in-depth, what did that particular protester do to die? To be shot with a tear gas canister? Is your legal spittle so meaningful that this man had to die for it to be AFFIRMED by force?</p> <p>People give too much credence to the legitimacy of States. States are political entities. They come and go. No State has the arbitrary and inherent right to exist. Israel as a Jewish State does not have a right to exist. No discriminatory State does.</p> <p>These "soldiers" are never carrying out justice. They are enforcing their illegitimate State's illegitimate policies.</p> <p>Policy is never the same as Justice.</p> <p>They may collude - but they are never interchangeable.</p> <p>We can always pull up a rulebook on a host of issues and cite the spittle as the word of God but when we actually question whether the rule itself is legitimate, then it changes everything.</p> <p>Your premise fails. Your argument fails.</p> Absolute nonsense, syvanen.

Your argument only makes sense if we agree to the premise that the State was enforcing justice. It was enforcing it's POLICY.

The Israeli government's policies are all justified by the Israeli government. It's not about justice, it's about interests.

The whole of the OT – Gaza/WB/East J. – are all Palestinian territory.

They are protesting the INJUSTICE carried out on THEIR LAND.

What were the IDF soldiers doing? Were they just? No, they were enforcing policy. They are mall cops.

The Palestinians (and especially the man killed) weren't provoking anyone.

The IDF is a criminal Army that works for a criminal State. That is the proper characterization.

All this legal SPITTLE is meaningless.

Furthermore, without even getting into all of this in-depth, what did that particular protester do to die? To be shot with a tear gas canister? Is your legal spittle so meaningful that this man had to die for it to be AFFIRMED by force?

People give too much credence to the legitimacy of States. States are political entities. They come and go. No State has the arbitrary and inherent right to exist. Israel as a Jewish State does not have a right to exist. No discriminatory State does.

These "soldiers" are never carrying out justice. They are enforcing their illegitimate State's illegitimate policies.

Policy is never the same as Justice.

They may collude – but they are never interchangeable.

We can always pull up a rulebook on a host of issues and cite the spittle as the word of God but when we actually question whether the rule itself is legitimate, then it changes everything.

Your premise fails. Your argument fails.

]]>