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	<title>Comments on: Despairing, Gideon Levy calls on Obama to forget about the absurd peace process</title>
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	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 11:57:04 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html/comment-page-1#comment-16849</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/22/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html#comment-16849</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Twenty evacuated settlements are worth more than a thousand peace formulas, and 2,000 released prisoners will move the sides forward more than 10,000 words. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
I would suggest prisoners and removing roadblocks, and selling settlement buildings (rather than just forcefully removing Jews from them).&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Twenty evacuated settlements are worth more than a thousand peace formulas, and 2,000 released prisoners will move the sides forward more than 10,000 words. </p>
<p>
I would suggest prisoners and removing roadblocks, and selling settlement buildings (rather than just forcefully removing Jews from them).</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html/comment-page-1#comment-16850</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/22/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html#comment-16850</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Relative to Netanyahu, containment is the appropriate attitude from Obama, keeping things from getting worse, rather than currently seeking to make things better.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Relative to Netanyahu, containment is the appropriate attitude from Obama, keeping things from getting worse, rather than currently seeking to make things better.</p>
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		<title>By: rykart</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html/comment-page-1#comment-16851</link>
		<dc:creator>rykart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/22/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html#comment-16851</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I have a great idea, Witty. How about I kick you and your family out of your home at gunpoint, then sell it back to you?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Or maybe, I should just blow it to bits. Then you can come back to me and ask me, (nicely, of course--anger never helps things), if i&#039;d be willing to help you &quot;perfect your land rights.&quot; &lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a great idea, Witty. How about I kick you and your family out of your home at gunpoint, then sell it back to you?</p>
<p>Or maybe, I should just blow it to bits. Then you can come back to me and ask me, (nicely, of course&#8211;anger never helps things), if i&#39;d be willing to help you &quot;perfect your land rights.&quot; </p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html/comment-page-1#comment-16852</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/22/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html#comment-16852</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@ Witty,&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;Relative to Netanyahu, containment is the appropriate attitude from Obama, keeping things from getting worse, rather than currently seeking to make things better.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;That works great for the Israelis, exactly what they want, the status quo. But what does that do for the Palestinians?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Any Obama policy that keeps things from getting worse for the Palestinians is going to be considered by the Israelis as worse for them. This is a zero-sum game as far as the Netanyahu government and the majority of Israelis are concerned.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Moreover, the current situation is not static. For the Palestinians each day is worse than the day before.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Your call for &quot;containment&quot; is isomorphic with the current efforts of pro-Israelis who want to convince Obama not to deviate from previous US policy in any significant way. They offer new marketing for the same old, never actually implemented and impractical, approaches. Impractical because their actualizaton run counter to what Israelis really want, uncontested control.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Maybe that is your intention. Otherwise, you are going to have to do much better than this.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Witty,</p>
<p><i>Relative to Netanyahu, containment is the appropriate attitude from Obama, keeping things from getting worse, rather than currently seeking to make things better.</i></p>
<p>That works great for the Israelis, exactly what they want, the status quo. But what does that do for the Palestinians?</p>
<p>Any Obama policy that keeps things from getting worse for the Palestinians is going to be considered by the Israelis as worse for them. This is a zero-sum game as far as the Netanyahu government and the majority of Israelis are concerned.</p>
<p>Moreover, the current situation is not static. For the Palestinians each day is worse than the day before.</p>
<p>Your call for &quot;containment&quot; is isomorphic with the current efforts of pro-Israelis who want to convince Obama not to deviate from previous US policy in any significant way. They offer new marketing for the same old, never actually implemented and impractical, approaches. Impractical because their actualizaton run counter to what Israelis really want, uncontested control.</p>
<p>Maybe that is your intention. Otherwise, you are going to have to do much better than this.</p>
</p>
<p></p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html/comment-page-1#comment-16853</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/22/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html#comment-16853</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Which is worse, an injustice done in the past, or an injustice contemplated and then done in the present?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Kicking current residents from their homes is an injustice proposed. Compensating for a prior wrong at least helps.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Your proposal for a pendulum swing creates 2 wrongs. The first wrong is not righted as most of the people that were originally harmed (and only in land that had specific prior residents) are long gone. Some other opportunist takes the land AND newly constructed and invested house over. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And, then the second wrong of a second forced dispossession occurs, leaving a couple hundred thousand either homeless or ripped off.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;At the same time, compensation to Palestinians if allowed to remain, or compensation from subsequent residents for the additions made if required to move, result in those in need getting some funding for a new start, and doesn&#039;t require violence (with nearly certain subsequent cycles).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The KEY logic that is accomplished is the transition of contested property to consented. (Not every individual will feel that that is justice, similar to my mother-in-law whose property in Hungary was expropriated in 1944 by Hungarian fascists, transferred to Germans, taken over by Russians, transferred to the socialist Hungarian state, then sold to the post-socialist locality. But, she was never compensated for the forced taking and then opportunistic transfers.)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This would be a large step further than that.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Your preference for escalation of conflict, could occur. It would be horrible for all parties. Better that a relatively fair process yeilds a significant reduction of hostilities, rather than give a whole other class of parties reason for war.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which is worse, an injustice done in the past, or an injustice contemplated and then done in the present?</p>
<p>Kicking current residents from their homes is an injustice proposed. Compensating for a prior wrong at least helps.</p>
<p>Your proposal for a pendulum swing creates 2 wrongs. The first wrong is not righted as most of the people that were originally harmed (and only in land that had specific prior residents) are long gone. Some other opportunist takes the land AND newly constructed and invested house over. </p>
<p>And, then the second wrong of a second forced dispossession occurs, leaving a couple hundred thousand either homeless or ripped off.</p>
<p>At the same time, compensation to Palestinians if allowed to remain, or compensation from subsequent residents for the additions made if required to move, result in those in need getting some funding for a new start, and doesn&#39;t require violence (with nearly certain subsequent cycles).</p>
<p>The KEY logic that is accomplished is the transition of contested property to consented. (Not every individual will feel that that is justice, similar to my mother-in-law whose property in Hungary was expropriated in 1944 by Hungarian fascists, transferred to Germans, taken over by Russians, transferred to the socialist Hungarian state, then sold to the post-socialist locality. But, she was never compensated for the forced taking and then opportunistic transfers.)</p>
<p>This would be a large step further than that.</p>
<p>Your preference for escalation of conflict, could occur. It would be horrible for all parties. Better that a relatively fair process yeilds a significant reduction of hostilities, rather than give a whole other class of parties reason for war.</p>
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		<title>By: rykart</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html/comment-page-1#comment-16854</link>
		<dc:creator>rykart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/22/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html#comment-16854</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Witty. Despite both our busy schedules, I&#039;m sure we can arrange a mutually agreeable time for me to run over your house with a D9 bulldozer so we can have our informative chat about perfecting your land rights.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You Nazi bastard. &lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Witty. Despite both our busy schedules, I&#39;m sure we can arrange a mutually agreeable time for me to run over your house with a D9 bulldozer so we can have our informative chat about perfecting your land rights.</p>
<p>You Nazi bastard. </p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html/comment-page-1#comment-16855</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/22/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html#comment-16855</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Bruce,&lt;br /&gt;
By containment, I mean a significant change from the past absence of any accountability.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For example, by containment, I mean an end to settlement expansion, and end to bulldozed homes.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The United States is NOT the sovereign entity responsible in the region, so unless you are suggesting US military intervention, then the best that can happen with the current Israeli government is to hold things steady, keep things from getting worse (which would happen in spades under the Bush administration).&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce,<br />
By containment, I mean a significant change from the past absence of any accountability.</p>
<p>For example, by containment, I mean an end to settlement expansion, and end to bulldozed homes.</p>
<p>The United States is NOT the sovereign entity responsible in the region, so unless you are suggesting US military intervention, then the best that can happen with the current Israeli government is to hold things steady, keep things from getting worse (which would happen in spades under the Bush administration).</p>
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		<title>By: LeaNder</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html/comment-page-1#comment-16856</link>
		<dc:creator>LeaNder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/22/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html#comment-16856</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I have to admit that rykart&#039;s aggressive interventions in this special case are quite appealing. What does that suggest to you, Richard?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But maybe you can tell us how the Israelis should handle all the bull-dozed houses of the Palestinians. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Could you invisage compensation for those too?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;What about the partially repeatedly demolished houses built on people&#039;s land since permits were only given to a tiny percentage? Will that be OK, since backed by &quot;legal procedure&quot;, or do your plans consider compensation in these cases too? &lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to admit that rykart&#39;s aggressive interventions in this special case are quite appealing. What does that suggest to you, Richard?</p>
<p>But maybe you can tell us how the Israelis should handle all the bull-dozed houses of the Palestinians. </p>
<p>Could you invisage compensation for those too?</p>
<p>What about the partially repeatedly demolished houses built on people&#39;s land since permits were only given to a tiny percentage? Will that be OK, since backed by &quot;legal procedure&quot;, or do your plans consider compensation in these cases too? </p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html/comment-page-1#comment-16857</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/22/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html#comment-16857</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There is no good answer to those questions.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The answer of throw another 500,000 out is not a good answer either.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The only answer can be the best one in the situation. The problem with anger as politics is that the result of it is further wrong, strengthening the mutually hateful pendulum swings, rather than relaxing them.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I doesn&#039;t stop the wrong from recurring in the present, but actually makes the mediation of differences that much more difficult.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Compensation can be structured to remedy individual cases where they are identifiable, and to fund community restoration where the individual cases are not identifiable.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It is necessary, if you are interested in the rule of law, to address the relative status of title of both Israeli settlers and former Palestinian residents by occupancy (not by purchase or other perfected title).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;LeaNder,&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m sorry that retribution is appealing to you, and collectively directed.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no good answer to those questions.</p>
<p>The answer of throw another 500,000 out is not a good answer either.</p>
<p>The only answer can be the best one in the situation. The problem with anger as politics is that the result of it is further wrong, strengthening the mutually hateful pendulum swings, rather than relaxing them.</p>
<p>I doesn&#39;t stop the wrong from recurring in the present, but actually makes the mediation of differences that much more difficult.</p>
<p>Compensation can be structured to remedy individual cases where they are identifiable, and to fund community restoration where the individual cases are not identifiable.</p>
<p>It is necessary, if you are interested in the rule of law, to address the relative status of title of both Israeli settlers and former Palestinian residents by occupancy (not by purchase or other perfected title).</p>
<p>LeaNder,<br />
I&#39;m sorry that retribution is appealing to you, and collectively directed.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/04/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html/comment-page-1#comment-16858</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/22/despairing-gideon-levy-calls-on-obama-to-forget-about-the-absurd-peace-process.html#comment-16858</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;The day will come when Israelis and Palestinians will not understand how they shed blood for so many years and why&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;ASAP!!!!&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;The day will come when Israelis and Palestinians will not understand how they shed blood for so many years and why&quot;</p>
<p>ASAP!!!!</p>
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