This is one of the tunnels going to Egypt from Gaza. You’re looking down the shaft on the Gaza side, about 25 meters to the bottom. People say there are hundreds of tunnels and if you walk around Rafah, the border town in the Gaza Strip, you can see scores of tents and shacks that enclose the work of the tunnels. If Israel wanted to destroy the tunnels, it could.
Why, there is even gas coming through the tunnels. Here is a photo I took of the gas pipes; see the two four-inch black pipes in the middle ground?
The last time I was at the tunnels and looked down at the men working, I thought of the underground railroad. The people in Gaza live in bondage. The historical causes of this are complex, and we can talk about that when I get home, but the simple condition now is Bondage under Israel, with the complicity of the U.S., Egypt and even parts of Europe.
The actual fact of bondage is inarguable. No one will tell you any different, not the highest government official or the boys toiling in the tunnels. Hardly anyone in Gaza can get out; and the mass of people are being starved of a whole life, of dreams, dignity, education. The tunnels are the safety valve. If they were shut down, the situation would become so completely shocking that international condemnation would be overwhelming.
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Israel’s siege has two fundamental goals. One is to ensure that the Palestinians there are seen merely as a humanitarian problem, beggars who have no political identity and therefore can have no political claims. The second is to foist Gaza onto Egypt. That is why the Israelis tolerate the hundreds of tunnels between Gaza and Egypt around which an informal but increasingly regulated commercial sector has begun to form.
Actual normalization would be better. The tunnels are illegal, violate Egypt's ability to control its borders. Gaza is vulnerable to the extent that the borders aren't in fact normalized. And Hamas is irresponsible in its governance in not seeking the degree of reconciliation with its neighbors that would result in actual normalization. There is hope resulting from Hamas' willingly not shelling civilians in Sderot and Ashkelon. But, the hope is thin still. The same restraint on the Israeli side of the border is also a sign of hope. The accusations of "attempted genocide" are exagerations, whether stated by Code Pink, Norman Finkelstein, Hamas or others.
What are the attributes of a normalized border? What is the sequence of steps. How long a time must pass without any shelling before the next step is taken, followed by, etc?
I don't understand what you are trying to say when you say that "Hamas is irresponsible in not seeking the degree of reconciliation with its neighbors that would result in actual normalization." Israel does not recognize the government of Hamas and will not negotiate with them. Israel and the US tried to instigate a coup in Gaza after the election of Hamas. Israel's policy, in fact, is to assassinate Hamas members, to destroy the entire infrastructure of Gaza and to punish by armed incursion and embargo the civilian population of Gaza for electing Hamas. And yet Israel still shows Gaza as part of Israel on its maps (although they now appear to be saying they want to give Gaza to Egypt). How is Hamas irresponsible for not normalizing the borders of Gaza in these circumstances?
Phil: The tunnels are the safety valve. If they were shut down, the situation would become so completely shocking that international condemnation would be overwhelming. Richard: tunnels are illegal… Hamas is irresponsible … Hamas has to stop shelling .. the accusations are exaggerations. Hamas offered a truce against the end of the blockade. And it kept it's truce, remember? Till the Israeli attack, based on a suspicion, you obviously trust. Not all of us do. One question: if there was a suspicion a tunnel could be used for the abduction of a IDF soldier, why didn't Israel bomb the tunnels at night, when nobody was there? But instead killed a series of Hamas members? The one scenario makes sure there will be a reprisal, while the other may not have guaranteed that? You ignore that if these people weren't able to "violate" the laws things would look much worse. But you of course would have your law and order inside Gaza. Twice now Phil pointed out that the Israelis could easily destroy the tunnels. You avoid complicity. Obviously people would start to rebuild them. But they are important for propaganda: only weapons and material to build weapons is transported through them. Force people into such a situation, they obviously will do anything to help themselves. Isn't this obvious? What matters more, modest human survival or Israeli and Egyptian laws? The world says: They are in a prison, Richard answers: They will be till they do what we want, and sign what we dictate them. Till then Phil has to inform the world, that everything is fine in Gaza and it's all only Hamas' fault.
The tunnels are the safety valve. If they were shut down, the situation would become so completely shocking that international condemnation would be overwhelming. A very astute observation. You nailed it, Phil.
off-topic links: U.S. Navy Vet Who Foiled Israeli Attack Honored A MUST-READ http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/Cd... UN: Israel ‘Buffer’ Zone Keeps a Third of Gaza’s Farmland Unusable http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/Cd... IDF: MK Ben Ari was trying to provoke us http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/Cd...
"Here is a photo I took"!!! So they are your photos! I can't say exactly why the idea of you photographing in Gaza, and bringing them back is so significant to me, but it is. It is thrilling. I had assumed you would not be able to take a single photo. This is wonderful to me, a photo record of your trip.
And, of course, Richard won't say what exactly he wants the Palestinians to do. First he mistates the situation, then he uses what can only be weasel words under the circumstances, words like "recounciliation" or "normalisation" Hasbara mit Schmalz, that's all we ever get from Witty. When he's not accusing (yes, yes, I know Richard, you only insinuated, that's so much better) Mondoweiss of being a propaganda oulet.
Colin, Thanks for those links. Ray McGovern's "U.S. Navy Vet Who Foiled Israeli Attack Honored" is a must-read.
I don't like posting here, not because I don't respect Mr Weiss, but rather I have a low opinion of some of the people who post comments here. However, I had to take issue with the idea that "If Israel wanted to destroy the tunnels, it could." It can't. Despite what you see in the movies, explosive shock waves don't travel far in earth, especially if it's sandy, which I'm guessing Gaza's soil is. To destroy the hundreds of tunnels would be a huge undertaking, and they would be easily rebuilt. The only way Israel can stop the tunnels is by retaking the border between Gaza and Egypt, which I doubt they want to.
Oh, I have a low opinion of some of the people who post comments here too. It's quite a mix, and an open forum dealing with controversial issues, so it would be surprising if there weren't some irrational views presented. We get them from both sides, as you no doubt have noticed: those who think Israel is blameless and Palestinians are just vicious animals, and, on the other hand, those who think any Jewish American who is supportive of Israel should be shot as a traitor. What makes the site worth reading is, first and foremost, the posts from Philip, Adam, and their contributors, and the comments from the comparatively rational readers on both sides of the issue. Destroying the tunnels would probably be quite a project. It could be done but it would be a lot of work and ultimately would harm Israel's cause. Israeli government ministers have in the past said that they want Gaza to be hungry but not starved to death; leaving the tunnels alone is consistent with that goal.
RE: "The people in Gaza live in bondage." FROM 'CODE PINK': Tell Obama Where To Go. The President will be in Egypt next month and we want him to visit Gaza and see how the Israelis are using the yearly $3 billion military aid from U.S taxpayers. Sign our petition to the President today! *TO SIGN PETITION - http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/424/t/8434/p...
I'm not an expert in explosives or mining, but I know some people who are, and they think it's impossible, or to be more precise, the Gazan's can build/repair the tunnels more easily than the Israelis can destroy them, which in turn explains why the Israeli bombing has been half-hearted.
The problem with Hamas is the terror. Noone cares much if they dissent with words only. They live in a reality. The reality is that they have borders with only two countries, both of which they have entered warring and terrorist relations with. Its a dumb approach for a party that desires to be taken seriously. It plays well in Iran and among activists. It doesn't play well among pragmatists.
You do get how much power Israel then has relative to the tunnels.
Nice compromised source on antiwar.com. Funny how our best bullshitter, Murray, didn't recognize the bullshit. But maybe he did.
RE: "Even gas comes through the tunnels" A RELATED ARTICLE – "The Rape of Gaza", by Roanne Carey @ the nation.com, 06/02/09 LINK – http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/440067/the_...
I also think the reasonable assumption is that the Israelis would destroy the tunnels if they could. The difference between the tunnels and checkpoints is control, and abdicating control is not done voluntarily. The idea that if the tunnels wouldn't exist people would starve doesn't make sense because more materials would be allowed to pass through checkpoints to compensate… and while I think many people on here are decent and thoughtful, there is a workable though not very polite approach for dealing with rough or inane environments: ignore posters and just comment on the topic.
Sara Roy has written about the policy of dedevelopment before, which I think is a valuable concept.
"No one cares much if they dissent with words only." Exactly, Richard. You said it! I appreciate the honesty.
Exactly, not even Israeli intransigence is willing to brave the reaction if the tunnels were shut off, and the Occupation was administrated according to Israeli preferences. They would be exposed as monsters. You're just a continuous loop projector, Witty.
I'm sorry, Meyrick. Is it something specific I do, or do I just disappoint you generally?
Craig, I have a funny feeling that things may change around here. I have a hard time imagining Phil coming back from Gaza and wanting to listen to Jake and his ilk. I don't know that, but it's hard to imagine he will feel it's necessary for Mondoweiss to become a hasbara outlet to retain its journalistic integrity. I could be wrong, and the smart money always bets that way, I've noticed.
"The idea that if the tunnels wouldn't exist people would starve doesn't make sense because more materials would be allowed to pass through checkpoints to compensate…" Maybe the tunnels only exist because Israel simply can't get enough good things to the Palestinians through the checkpoints fast enough. The Israeli desire to make sure the Palestinians have all the ingredients for good living is palpable. I think I'll go palpate it a bit.
Should I elaborate? Maybe I could distinguish between starving and starving to death. There is no intention from Israel to achieve the latter. If everything passes through checkpoints you're in control. It means you can finetune punishment to achieve the maximum of suffering while staying below the threshold where the media pay attention.
You think the trip will radicalize Phil? Well, we'll see. My guess is that he'll not change the comment policy, nor ban anyone just for presenting hasbara comments. I would bet money he won't ban Richard Witty under any circumstances, both because of their personal history and because Richard, as wrong as he often is, does the best job of presenting the official Israel perspective of anyone here. It's true that "Jake and his ilk" (which does not include Richard in my opinion) are merely offensive louts unworthy of any serious consideration, but that's actually what's good about them, in a way: they make their own side look bad.
I actually find it hard to believe that Jacobwolfen and Jake in Jerusalem aren't spoof trolls. Whoa.
Now THIS is some GREAT reporting. Superb! Worth the trip just for this!
Among the problems with Israel is the terror. No one would care if they had equality. The reality that there is world-wide terrorism is a curious reversal of their own role; they see enemies everywhere. In acting as enemies toward others, they create a reality in which people not under their control witness more clearly how such a process occurs. "Pragmatists" view the need for civil rights as inimical? Or people who believe human rights to be an entitlement of only the few consider themselves pragmatists?
Why would you think that people who visit Gaza would not be able to take photos?
"there is a workable though not very polite approach for dealing with rough or inane environments: ignore posters and just comment on the topic." Better yet, simply skip over the comments posted by certain people you know have nothing useful to say. Saves time, and reduces aggravation while still allowing for discussion with the more thoughtful commenters.
Leave it to you, Richard Witty, to suggest that the oppressed and imprisoned should normalize its relations with the entity that is oppressing and imprisoning them. I am sure you would have given the same advice to the residents of the Warsaw Ghetto.
Let's say that is for the intermediate cases, and depending on character. Anyway, even in bad cases there is a workable approach. Not that anybody should feel compelled to post when they don't feel like it. I think the 'everybody ignore each other' approach is interesting actually, for other reasons. It can provide good input that is tightly on topic. It's more 'task based' than 'people based'.
Jake and his ilk here! I ALWAYS deal only with facts and logic. This makes the debate and the debunking of IslamoFascist, antisemitic and slanderous propaganda so easy for me. Mondoweiss is full of lies – demonstrable lies. If presenting the truth, the facts and the references again and again makes me "offensive" to you, then I am proud of that achievement. Wallow in your judenhass if that is what turns you on but you won't convince anyone except the gullible and already converted.
You have all seen many photos of Gazans. You have all heard (and probably repeated) the slanderous claim that Israel is starving the Pals of Gaza. You have even read Phil's report in which he said that people appear to be well-fed and have consumer-goods readily available. (Has anyone wondered where these people who experience over 50% unemployment still have money for Plasma Home Theater Displays? Ask UNRWA – and your govt representative who send money there…) Has anyone EVER seen a photo of a starving Pal? No, an undernourished Pal? How about a hungry Pal? An underfed Pal? NO!!! They tend to be OBESE. Check out the photos. Use your brains and dont' keep on falling for IslamoFascist antisemitic propaganda.
The news agencies have regular photographers in Gaza, mostly local Gazans. Well paid guys with expensive cameras. Foreign crews get in, too. The only real fear they all have is that Hamas might become unhappy, so they have to present photos and stories that fit the Hamas narrative….
That's a very interesting point you're making. You're sure this is all antisemitic propaganda?
Any way you look at it, the available facts just don't fit. Gazans have WAY MORE FOOD AND MODERN CONVENIENCES AND LUXURIES than, say, a couplahundred million Africans. And WAY MORE than BLACK CHRISTIANS IN DARFUR who are being slaughtered by the Islamic Republic of Sudan. Why do "human rights" activists like MondoBrains not worry about Darfur? Are they antisemites? You can come to your own conclusions.
For the geography-challenged: the tunnels you speak of go under the border between the GAZA STRIP and EGYPT. Israel does not control this border; Egypt and Hamas do. It is Egypt that is furthering it's own interests in clamping down on tunnels. And when hundreds of tunnels operate out in the open, it is because it is in Egypt's interests. Egypt, you may have noticed, doesn't take orders from Israel, your antisemitic nonsense notwithstanding.