Joseph Dana, who blogs at Ibn Ezra and is the co-creator of the Feeling the Hate In Jerusalem on Eve of Obama's Cairo Address video with Max Blumenthal, was interviewed by Tampa NPR station WMNF. Joseph discusses the background on the video, what he thinks it says about the Israeli Jewish, and American Jewish, communities and his important work with the Israeli organization Ta'ayush. The interview begins at 40:30.
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Off topic, or maybe not quite, since the "controversial" video tried to convey a glimpse on Israeli/Israeli-American public opinion about Obama. I just found this JP article in my mailbox: The subject read: Eframim Zuroff, No. 1 Nazi Hunter, on Obama http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=124403... …Thus, according to Obama, Americans recognize that "the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied," an obvious reference not to the destruction of the Second Temple and the exile of the Jewish people from its historic homeland, but rather to the Shoa. The continuation of the speech, in which he refers to his visit today to Buchenwald and attacks Holocaust denial, make this linkage absolutely clear. But besides being historically inaccurate, this false connection strengthens one of the strongest canards of anti-Israel propaganda in the Muslim world; that Europeans guilty of Holocaust crimes established a Jewish state in Palestine at the expense of the local Arab residents to atone for their World War II atrocities. By ignoring three thousand years of Jewish history, by neglecting to even mention the unbreakable link, started long before the advent of Islam, between the Jewish people and Eretz Yisrael, Obama totally failed to deliver what should have been one of his most important messages to the Arab world.
God, some people are never happy, are they? If one notes that Zionism predates the Holocaust, one is faced with endless rhetoric about how it proved the need for a Jewish state and that it's downright anti-Semitic not to focus on the Holocaust as the reason behind the foundation of Israel; vice versa, if one notes the importance of the Holocaust, then one is repeating ahistorical – and downright anti-Semitic – canards… (In any case, the Jews weren't exiled by the Romans, and it seems doubtful that many Jews felt a literal – rather than spiritual – desire to 'return' to the Land of Israel prior to the advent of Zionism (inspired by the birth of nationalism) in the 19th century.)
those guys you interviewed were gigantic douchebags, you're better than me i would have spat in their faces. what do they expect the united states president to do for them before thier own leadership? idiots. keep exposing them for what they are..they bring all that hate to themselves…sad
That Obama failed to do so is probably because he has a somewhat surer grasp of history than this Eframim Zuroff, whoever he is. The suggestion that the arrival of the ancestors of the Palestinians in Palestine coincided with the coming of Islam is quite false. There are good grounds for taking the Palestinian claim that they are, in majority, the descendants of the ancient Canaanites seriously. I have blogged on this here : http://tonykaron.com/2009/03/21/israels-apartheid... (no's 51 and 53). The Jewish population, by contrast, can only be assumed to be very partly the descendants of the ancient Israelites. At one stage Judaism was a proselytising religion and many of those who call themselves Jews today probably descend from converts. (Blast it – Philip's new software is irritating. As soon as you write more than a few paragraphs it tells you that your comment is too long. O.K. the rest in my second post)
That Jews said for thousands of years, when lifting their glasses at the end of the Passover meal, "next year in Jerusalem" does not constitute a claim. Moreover, how seriously should we take a ritual indulged in by the ancestors of many who have reacted with "thanks no thanks" to the opportunity to make aliyah ? Anyway, even if contemporary Jewry descended 100 % from the original inhabitants of Israel and all the Arabs had come in with Islam how seriously should we take its claims to historical priority.? As the French Jewish sociologist Raymond Aron once wrote: "That the Israelis should have invoked historical rights of priority convinces nobody. After a few centuries a prescription operates. When Nehru took over Goa by force, denying claims based on five centuries of occupation, Western opinion was indignant … How could it recognize a claim to ownership dating back more than two thousand years? The State of Israel has been carved out by the sword …" Let us, finally, not waste words on the fairytale (probably not taken seriously by the secular inhabitants of Israel either) that God promised the land to the Jews.
RE: "…the Hate in Jerusalem." *** REMEMBER RACHEL CORRIE / HELP STOP THE SALE OF CATERPILLAR BULLDOZERS TO ISRAEL *** FROM: Jewish Voice for Peace (info@jewishvoiceforpeace.org) This coming June 10, we will be at the Caterpillar annual shareholder meeting for the sixth time. We will remind the Board of Directors that stopping the company's sales of bulldozers to Israel is not only ethical but affordable for Caterpillar. We will remind them that not changing course will be increasingly more costly to Caterpillar: Hampshire College has already divested from CAT, and so has the Church of England; other churches are considering similar steps. Twenty Israeli peace and justice organizations have come in support of divestment from Caterpillar. We want you to be with us at the meeting. Please sign a letter to Caterpillar by June 9th, and we will hand-deliver it to the Board of Directors the next day. Help us bring thousands of letters of protest! *TO SIGN – http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/301/t/1849/c...
Beside other irritating traits Phil's new software also sometimes (as now) stubbornly reports that there are o comments when, in fact, there are already many. Also, with various posts I have not been able to get at p.2 or 3 of the comments.
confiscate their weapons take them to their cells keep them barely living in their own private hells take them to the border nudge them with your gun shoot above their heads till they begin to run lead them to the chambers once their herded round listen to the screaming and now there is no sound wasn't that you at auschwitz or a thousand other deaths one man kills another before they've ever met
OMG. What will make the Israelis happy? Are they fucking never satisfied? They change colors like chamelions.
awesome.
Even Truman said that Jews (not Zionists) are selfish and greedy. How sad is it that Zionism allows these people to be at their worst and socially acceptable in that state.
Chomsky posted a very sensible article about Obama's Cairo speech on ZNet on Friday, basically pouring cold water on it and saying Obama's stance was less promising even than Clinton's stance: http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/21632
I saw that article and I thought that it was a bit unfair on Obama, seeing that the man has only been in office for just over four months. Alexander Cockburn, who also saw fit to remind his readers that behind the 'high wordfs' there were 'low truths', judged nevertheless that he might have already cooked his goose as far as a second term is considered. The man can only do so much, given the prevailing political constellation. To ask him to stick his neck out any further at this stage does not seem reasonable to me. He needs time to create the distance from Israel that will enable him to take further steps. Netanyahu, Barak and Lieberman can be relied on to create that distance for him. But once again: that requires time.
How Ironic – Ahmed Bedier, formerly of CAIR – spends hours on TV decrying stereotypes of Muslims, telling us that we shouldnt judge Muslims by the bearded radicals screaming death to the Jews that we see on Mainstream media, educating the "FBI" and decrying the roundup of Muslims in the wake of 9/11 – but now comes on Tampa Public Radio and talks about calling the secret service and FBI to investigate a bunch of drunk 17 yr olds because they said they were going to teabag Obama. Sometimes the truth IS more ridiculous than anything I could make up.
IDF troops more polite than Palestinian (words of a Palestinian terrorist's mother!): http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=124403... Ahhh, the truth hurts.
I didn't think it was fair when the fbi came knocking on my brother's door when he was a student living with some other students in an apartment complex. THe complaint against him was that he was Arab-looking and a lot of students came in and out of his apartment. So these students threat to teabag Obama should be investigated. It's more of a henious crime than being a Paki who looks Arab. (The FBI clearly were not happy that he wasn't Arab and demanded he prove he was Paki). The FBI does need to be educated. ADL and AIPAC do the same. Part of their mission is about educating others. Read it in their mission statements. Go ahead and judge the screaming bearded radicals who yell death to the Jews. Judge them, not the billion plus Muslims. Similarly, we will judge the racist kids and the bearded and not bearded Jews who yell "death to the Arabs." But I won't judge Phil or the countless others I know based on the hate of Zionists. There is one thing that is more ridiculous than the truth and that is your brainless post.
merci mon pote est
That doesn't surprise me as Abass has to hire thugs to prop up his illegitimate rule as Israel insists of him, but then again I wouldn't be surprised if the woman was just kissing Israeli ass out of fear that they might demolish her house.
They change colors like chamelions. I used to call my brother chameleon. Maybe since he was always very popular. I attributed this to his ability to adopt to surrounding and circumstances. … But somehow I don't think it fits into a democracy with many, many voices. It's a multi-voice-choir. I am not a fan of the religiously based argument, but then it was an issue over centuries. No doubt about that. And maybe I was even a bit jealous of my brother, who often from my point of view didn't care enough about his convictions, or what his position on issues was yesterday.
I don't like your Truman quote. Strahl. If you mean what you say, this means Phil, Adam, Joseph and Max too. We are all more or less greedy and selfish.
What will make the Arabs happy? They have 99.95% of the region and they thirst for more land.
Ditto. Very annoying. Additionally, I can comment and go back to the thread later and my comment is no longer there, etc.
That said, I understand the feelings that trigger the use of the term. The religious line of argument obviously turns Israel into a very singular case that cannot be compared with any other state, which somehow raises it beyond judgment. Which leaves us with many paradoxes. I am enamored with paradoxes. Doesn't it in a way deny that outside forces had any influence on the foundation of the state, if it was based on a purely religious desire to return to the roots? Doesn't it make antisemitism somehow meaningless? But at the same time this was clearly the main motivation of the Zionists. At the same time, antisemitism, or the latest new antisemitism (anti-Israel) is used as an argument. If an Arab points out what the central motivation of late 19th/early to mid 20th century Zionists was, or events in Germany and Europe: He is using a canard, he is an antisemite, and argues from a conspiratorial point of view. Yes, that feels like shifting, a selective propagandistic use of historical truth.
Dear Arie, I have been experimenting with IntenseDebate software and have found that it interacts badly with some browsers. If you switch to the latest version of firefox, you will probably have fewer problems. Using Linux instead of windows can also facilitate posting or make it completely impossible.
Forty years of MSM & Hollywood demonization of arabs and now we are pushing the Jews into the sea by showing a YouTube clip of dual citizen jewish punks from the middle & upper middle class of the USA playing cowboy in the land given to them by God?
BTW, Palestinians are almost certainly the descendants of the Greco-Roman Judaic or Judean populations of Palestine. Modern Jews almost certainly have practically no ancestry traceable to those populations: Khaleej Times: Israel Steals Palestinian Heritage, History.
we discussed this before Arie. Intensedebate admitted problems. They are working on it. http://blog.intensedebate.com/2009/04/ Ideally apart from the bugs, it seems they are growing too fast, this will mutate into a very flexible database. At the moment I have these problems: * the feature with responses listed but not showing has been reported by many here. I am sure, I wouldn't have missed e.g. Dana's response to Max defense of their video. It was an absolutely separate mail, but didn't show for me either. my latest problems: * sometimes, not constantly, I have to disallow specific JavaScript files on the page to be able to post when I am logged in. At the moment I disallowed two Google and one Sharethis script. Before I simply couldn't post a message. * sometimes I get the message that my response has to be approved by the blog-owners. I don't really want to trouble them. So I started to delete them, if it occurs, and if this message appears. Sometimes simply answering again, works fine. Sometimes there is a serial denial. * I don't like the software's interference with links in the editing process either. * As I would appreciate if a few html tags would be allowed again.
Stephen Walt's blog entry Cairo Speech (Round 2) is addressing some of the same issues as this discussion.
Joseph sounded very responsible, ained, unwilling to abuse. His personal presentation differed with the carelessness of the summary of the video. Here, he had the opportunity to frame his thinking even. When the video is distributed via you-tube or even the language of the radio interviewer, its presentation is only negative, NOT framed as a concern about Israeli consciousness, but as a demonization of Israel as Israel. Also, Dana criticized (and the radio interviewers criticized) the presence of dual citizen American Jews/Israelis, when Dana himself sounded like he came from the US, and perhaps was a similar dual citizen. The common thread that I observed was the common willingness of the abusers of Obama applying generalization with the also obviously intelligent and educated dissenters also willing to generalize and promote angers and/or hatred. Journalistic responsibility is critical. Again, I think the Mondoweiss brand suffered an enormous failure of character by the content selected, and the manner of distribution. Numbers will give Phil a livelihood. But, they DON'T accomplish any valid mission if they invoke hatred in any way.
Ah yes, IDF are the most polite soldiers in the world. Ask the hundres of kids who were bobmed in Gaza, the UN compound that was destroyed with civilians in it and the mothers who were shot by IDF snipers when they trying to take their kids out of harm's way carrying white flags. I am sure those soldiers were also very polite, I am sure they were all saying, excuse me but i have to blow up you life. You make me sick.
Not sure why this clip was included on this site. These kids are no different than any other American kids away from their parents and behave like idiots. They're drunk, loud and abusive in everything they say. But, I am sure you can get the same from many spots around the world where Americans go and act like the "Ugly American". If you've ever been in Mexico during spring break you'll know what i am saying. The clip didn't move in any way except chuckle when this one kid said, "i just want some pussy". well, i think that says everything about what these kids.
I have the nasty habit of always criticizing artistic endeavors. Or as my brother told me once, I am to too honest. Thus I would suggest this slight correction, hoping to not make you too angry with my nitwit interference: wasn't that you in auschwitz or a thousand other deaths one man kills another before they've never met How would you kill someone in Auschwitz before you meet him? But maybe I miss something?
You can go to the Truman Library Archive online and read what Truman said. It does not matter that you won't like what he said; available also is the context in which he said such things. None of the people you named are Zionists. And, yes of course, everything is a matter of degree so one must make comparisons, which is what Truman was doing.
Senhal, I think that you are confused. To point out that Zionism predates the Holocaust is historically accurate. To view the Holocaust as the end of two thousand years of anti-Semitism and violence against Jews is naive. Neither view, however, is anti-Semitic, and I'm not sure where you have have heard this. History shows that the Jews did show quite a literal desire to return (note the lack of quotes around return). They did exercise that desire from about the 12th century on (note Maimonades, Nachmanadies and Yehudah Halevi, amongst others). As it became less dangerous to travel in the 18th and 19th centuries, Jews continued to arrive in Palestine, even prior to the rise of political Zionism in the last two decades of the 19th century.
Not many influential people consistently merge their inner files; otherwise, they wouldn't be very influential. When you merge your files all the inconsistencies show up.
So, all Arabs are the same? And nationality and/or states mean nothing?
The roundup of Muslims but much more what Saleema tells us, reminds me of the atmosphere during the Nazis and the similar–you are watched atmosphere, all over the GDR–you can turn a nation into informers, spying on their neighbors. The point is once you are suspicious, everything appears suspicious to you. But I also slightly agree with Ethan. That was one voice, if I remember correctly, and in the setting he may well have simply tried to impress his comrades. How busy would the FBI be, if it had to investigate every event like this? But strictly, why not test it.
The Max Blumenthal/Joseph Dana video enhanced rather than diminished the Mondoweiss brand. The video is being widely linked on many influential blogs, including foreignpolicy.com. The video was a graphic demonstration of what the polls in Israel already say, that Israelis are prejudiced against Muslims and Arabs and run their society like white Jewish supremacists. Lecturing Weiss and Horowitz about journalistic responsibility because they have showed some young Jewish Israeli/Americans in a negative light is reprehensible in view of the fact that Muslims and Arabs have been portrayed in a negative light all over the Israeli and American media for years. Mr. Witty, I think you would feel more comfortable over at Michelle Malkin's or Free Republic or World Net Daily where they rant and rave that Rachel Ray is a terrorist for wearing a keffiyah in a Dunkin Donuts advert and institute a boycott of Dunkin Donuts over the matter. Now that's journalistic responsibility you can believe in. Go. These are your kind of places–where bashing blacks, Muslims and Obama is OK but never the Jews.
The Mondoweiss brand is doing fine. This video did not enhance or break the site's popularity. You're just looking for an opportunity to bash the blog, Witless.
In the video clip, the innocuous question asked, and the following grossly ignorant and racist responses, were very revealing. Would you, Witty, say the same thing about the Mel Gibson incident in terms of MSM presentation and coverage? The video itself was res ipsa loquitur, the thing speaks for itself. And once again, regular readers here will notice Witty's modis operandi: Ignore the giant blanket over decades by the MSM and our government leaders establishing by content selected and manner of distribution consistent hasbara talking points to brain wash the American public. It is this blog that is samizdat, and Witty is just talking in terms of balance and moderation, but in reality reiterating the massive long time brain washing by our whore media and government leaders. This leads to the ultimate question, how can campaign finance reform be effected, and how can we gain some objectivity on our foreign policy in the face of who owns and controls the MSM, hence all career journalists and reporters? The tiny video clip is not exactly the NY Times or WAPO or WAll St Journal, or any broadcast news flash or cable news analysis of our foreign policy and its blowback. The bully walks the sandlot, a tiny guy throws a tiny punch at him, and Witty joins the giant bully in beating the sh** out of the courageous little guy. The clear mirror on Witty is actual power; Witty sucks up to actual power–and sleeps nicely, thank you–he knows the flunkies at 9-11 are reserved for his calls in his gated community. Inside there, he wears a hairy shirt of victimhood–a borrowed one he pays nothing for…
RSVP • USS Liberty Memorial Service Monday, June 8th 2009 Noon This is an urgent appeal to get involved on June 8, 2009! Please forward this information to others for a big turnout!! We are working with Ernie Gallo, President of the USS Liberty Veterans Association in order to force a thorough and unbiased investigation of Israel’s attack on the USS Liberty Ship on June 8, 1967 that resulted in the murder of 34 and the wounding of 174 crewmembers. For decades, those aboard the USS Liberty were threatened with a possible ten-thousand dollar fine, Ten Years of Imprisonment “or worse” if they revealed the truth about this unwarranted attack. The cover-up of this unprecedented slaughter by Israel is considered to be the second day of infamy and is one of the most guarded secrets in US history by a number of Americans who committed acts of treason. Every American should know what happened, get involved and never forget! You are invited and encouraged to participate by joining the survivors of the Liberty and others in Washington, DC – especially at the White House; by writing press releases for your local newspaper; by encouraging radio and TV hosts to discuss the issue with or without survivors; by notifying others in your community and encouraging them to participate; by airing relevant films in your community and on community TV; by calling and writing President Obama, Senators, Congressmen, newspapers, neighbors, et al. Schedule of events on June 8, 2009 in Washington, DC: 12 PM, Arlington National Cemetery: The survivors, relatives and others will attend the annual ceremony at the Arlington National Cemetery that honors those who died in the attack. 3 PM United States Navy Memorial, 701 Pennsylvania Ave, NW, Washington, DC: For all to attend the dedication of a model of the USS Liberty Ship. There may also be an appearance by James Scott, the son of a surviving Liberty officer, a journalist and author of a new book, “The Attack on the Liberty: The Untold Story of Israel’s Deadly 1967 Assault on a U.S. Spy Ship.” This ceremony is hosted by the Presidential Commission on Remembrance. 5 PM AT The White House: Many of the survivors of the USS Liberty, their supporters, concerned citizens, reporters and others will be meeting at the gates of the White House to present for President and Mrs. Obama a painting of the USS Liberty Ship, a Liberty memorial jacket and a Liberty hat of the USS Liberty Ship. They will ask to meet with the President and plead with him to order a thorough and unbiased investigation of Israel’s attempt to sink the USS Liberty and kill all 294 Americans on board. Recent summary of coverup: http://www.alarabonline.org/english/display.asp?f...
it all belongs to them so it is understandable that thievery dispossession and oppression would upset them. they owned more land 100 or 10 or 1 year ago than they do today. the dynamic of displacement clearly has them as the victims. all they ask is what was stolen. perhaps the zionist mindset is different, given how cowardly it is, but personally if i had 100 children, i would not think it ok if even 1 of them was in slavery. but then again, according to well your leveraged tribal fairytales, you own the world.
The Obama bashers would not have been happy unless he had allowed the Israeli Ministry of Propaganda to rewrite his entire speech to say Eretz Israel can only belongs to the Jews; all you Arabs have to leave; there is no such thing as a Palestinian; Jewish supremacy in the Middle East is a matter of American policy and of international law. Since Obama failed to convey these messages, they now say he is the most anti-semitic. ant-Israeli president ever. Thus they are now justified to run a campaign against him where they photoshop his picture to look like an Arab, or like Bin Laden, or like Hitler.
Yes you are. Meeting them in Auschwitz does not mean literally meeting them face to face in the poem, but directly affecting their well-being by your position of authority influencing their lives.
It's already being tested constantly–as to anyone who may be deemed anti-semitic and/or a critic of Israel or a donator to any Arab humanitarian cause. You don't live in the USA, so you don't know I guess, although there is plenty of writing of this one-sided deal on the internet under USA domestic security labels. The problem is, the USA agencies and their appointed leaders are totally one sided on this issue.
Obama in Cairo: The devil's in the detail 05/06/2009 11:35:00 PM GM By Alan Sabrosky President Obama’s Cairo speech is a watershed event. However this plays out, he has done what no other American president of any party could or would have done, and for that alone he deserves praise. It is refreshing that he went immediately to the heart of the matter: the mistrust between Americans and the Muslim world, and the intolerable situation of the Palestinians – no equivocation, just put it on the table. Purists or fanatics may say that he did not go far enough in condemning past U.S. actions, or in reasserting his predecessor’s open-ended commitment to anything and everything Israel did or wanted. But politics is the art of the practical, and neither groveling in the rhetorical dirt nor being an Israeli apologist would do anyone except those purists and fanatics any good. Obama acquired a good deal of legitimacy as an intelligent, articulate and charismatic leader, thus distancing himself from a predecessor who was none of those things. I applaud him for that. Reflecting on the details Actions do speak louder than words, and it is those that will determine the proof of his intentions. But we should remember that the ship of state, like a ship at sea, cannot do an instantaneous change of course. It needs to turn, and turn slowly and carefully, so it does not capsize or run aground, especially in a narrow channel with obstacles on all sides. And Obama does face numerous obstacles. One is AIPAC's tame poodles in the U.S. Congress and Israel’s advocates in the mainstream media. No matter what Obama wishes to do, it is absolutely certain that for now, Congress will vote for whatever Israel wishes, and a good part of the mainstream media will endorse that. Another is his reaffirmation of a special relationship of unbreakable bonds with Israel. The U.S. cannot hope to broker disputes anywhere if it enters the fray professing a clear preference for one of the parties, and refuses to penalize it in any substantive way. A third is Palestinians bent on revenge against Israelis who have ravaged them and their land and families for decades. Whatever Palestinian representatives endorse, many who have been oppressed and lost loved ones to Israeli soldiers and settlers will want to return the “favor.” And the most fundamental is the carefully ignored reality that whatever the two-state rhetoric employed, Palestinians and Israelis claim the same land, neither believes they can be safe without their own country, and neither believes they can be safe if the other has a country. The Israelis now rule and have no intention of relinquishing that position. Some Palestine may emerge that is called a state, but that doesn’t mean it will be anything but an Israeli victim with a different status, barring external protection. Making it happen Good intentions do not have much leverage, but three things can still be done to help Obama begin to achieve his goals, not as Israel’s patron-in-chief but as a U.S. President committed to America’s interests overall. The most important is to replace many of the key players in the Administration now dealing with Middle East affairs. Almost all now are either Jewish or firm Israeli partisans; Arab-Americans and those who are not staunch supporters of Israel are not exactly easy to find in the government. But they are easy to find in America, and Obama should remember that another Democratic president, Jimmy Carter, was the last president with a senior Middle East adviser (William Quandt) who was not an Israeli partisan, and he managed to achieve the Camp David accords between Israel and Egypt. It is a precedent worth repeating. Second, the so-called “special relationship” with Israel absolutely has to end, both because of Israel’s elected government and its behavior, and America’s own national self-interest. When one cuts through the rhetoric, the issue of Israel today comes down to parties and people: Who governs? And this much is clear. If any other country elected someone like Binyamin Netanyahu from a party like Likud as its Prime Minister, and someone like Avigdor Lieberman from a party like Yisrael Beiteinu as its Foreign Minister, no one in Washington would be babbling about a "special relationship" between America and that country. No U.S. President would affirm that its security was America's paramount concern. No one in Congress would pledge continued support. In fact, no one in official Washington would give such people access to scraps in the White House kitchen, or send a penny to their country. And that is the only approach that may help less dogmatic Israelis come to the forefront.
Third, the U.S. must explicitly link the phased withdrawal of Jewish settlements from the West Bank and the lifting of the Israeli blockade of the beleaguered people of Gaza to a continuation of American military and economic assistance to Israel. A properly coached Congress will be enraged, but while Congress can authorize all the funds for Israel it wishes, the President is under no practical obligation to spend them (so-called “signing statements” may have a good purpose, after all!), and I do not see a Democratic Congress impeaching and convicting a black Democratic President. Without this leverage, Israel has no reason whatsoever to support Obama’s expressed goals, and a failure to understand this essential point will entail the failure of Obama’s grand design, leaving the road to his political hell and more war truly paved with his own good intentions. With it, a safe and stable Palestine has a chance. These proposals take more from Israel than from the Palestinians, and place a greater burden on Israelis than on the Palestinians. That is because Israel today is in the dominant position, whereas the Palestinians have lost almost everything and are subject to Israel’s whims. Doing what I propose will assuredly upset the Israelis and their supporters in the U.S. But America has better things to do than to underwrite Jewish settlers determined to play “master race” over impoverished and terrorized Palestinians. — Alan Sabrosky (Ph.D, University of Michigan) is a ten-year US Marine Corps veteran and a graduate of the US Army War College. He can be contacted at docbrosk@comcast.net
I support an open investigation into the Liberty incident. I happen to know about it… and would LOVE to see the truth come out. Johnson's spying on Israel for Egypt in the middle of the Six Day War, the Pentagon's DELIBERATE abandonment of the USS Liberty Spy Ship after they got caught, the Pentagon's DENIAL of having any other ships within a few hundred miles, the Sec of Defense RE-CALLING air cover to the stricken spy ship and doing so TWICE on the same day, making a direct presidential order to the commander of the Sixth Fleet to recall air support because the White House could not possibly support a spy ship the existence of which they had already denied to an ally. Congress is well aware of these problems. There was NO "attempt by Israel to sink the USS Liberty" nor to kill anyone; had Israel really wanted to do so, it would have been fairly easy to do. More in next posting…
There have been long arguments on this topic and I won't repeat everything here, nor (on a blatantly antisemitic and antiZionist site like Mondoweiss) do I intend to get into a to and fro on this topic. The available facts point CLEARLY to a coverup by the US govt to cover IT'S OWN ASS. Which is why Congress will refuse to investigate and report on this for decades to come. It's unfortunate for the US sailors killed in that attack. It's unfortunate that some of them were pressed into spy duty without their consent and were then abandoned by a double-crossing Johnson administration. But you can't blame Israel for everything wrong done in Washington. If you ignore the available facts and blame Israel for Washington's treachery, then your place really is here at home on Mondoweiss with the other Jew-haters. Welcome home.
Given Obama's speech in Cairo, especially his rare flag for policy change amidst the great rhetoric of tolerance and fairness, or rather, his intent to reinstate what has long been official US policy (not some Bush memo to an Israel Obama can ignore since Congress is not involved) regarding Israeli settlements, this is a must read: http://mail.google.com/mail/?hl=en#all/121b666a1d... How is it that all muslim Americans are suspect when they donate to Arab causes, but the USA encourages Zionist and Israel Firster donations to aid the illegal settlements flying in the face of official US policy–via all the "humanitarian" agencies filtering aid to maintain and expand settlements? Taxpayers even pay for them indirectly since they are all exempt. Zionists have all weapons and Palestinians have their hands tied behind their back, in the USA, and in Israel. Who is David here, who is Goliath? This blog is a small sling shot against zionist Israel and the Wittys riding on the back of storming Goliath, all the while weeping tears for the loss of rational man.
I came to Mondoweis a few weeks ago and I am now leaving. Mondoweiss is infested with antisemitism and anti-Israel views and powered by posters who are not amenable to rational debate. It is a remarkable blend of Jew-hating Right Wing Nazis and Jew-hating Left Wing terrorist apologists. At least they all seem to have something in common. I have presented DOZENS of logical, factual, verifiable facts and arguments to knock down the anti-Israel and antisemitic posters here and you all have not been able to rebut a SINGLE ONE OF MY ARGUMENTS. Neither facts nor logic have any affect at all on MondoBloggers. Yet, somehow, this doesn't seem to have modified the sheer Jew-hatred here one bit. Bye MondoBrainers. Wallow in your hatred as much as you like. You can't convince any but the gullible and the already converted so I don't really fear you, but you plainly will never find the truth and you don't seek it either. A place of dishonesty and untruth is not a place for me.
Ok, citizen. I am here English to learn, tomorrow I start Kentucky Steak House. You mean the Schreibtischtäter, the desk murderers. Well yes, they didn't need to meet the victims. Eichmann. I could delete it, but I better leave my shame for all to see.
I invite everyone to google the USS Liberty incident; the survivors have their own web site BTW. You will see that Jake in Jerusalem has absolutely no facts to back up anything he says–notice he gives us no reference sources at all–check it out for yourselves. Johnson's actions regarding this incident are not double-dealing at all, rather they are treasonous and mark the first time in American history a president was so to such a blatant degree and sans even the Shoah as an excuse. Johnson did it for the usual reason, copying why Truman ASAP recognized Israel in defiance of his own state department: He knew his continued Presidential career rested on Zionist moneybag and MSM power right here in the USA. BTW, Jake, who is supposedly an Israel resident, would agree that we should honor Shrub's memo letter honoring the continued expansion of settlements in the face of US policy dead against those settlements. Lucky for the USA and Israel that Obama does not have to honor Shrub's secret (to most of the public) memo letter–Obama can use signing statements too, and our Congress can grow some balls against the Zionists–it's up to you to remind them elections are coming up again in this context.
Jake gives us here the best example of freudian projection imaginable. Look at his posts since he came here. Like Manson (with a skull cap), he would blame us for his own degeneracy. The solution is to cut off all aid to Israel, where Jake ostensibly lives, to make Israel humane and an appropriate partner for the USA's highest ideals as a super power, rather than dragging us down in the honest eyes of the world.
Also, Dana criticized (and the radio interviewers criticized) the presence of dual citizen American Jews/Israelis, when Dana himself sounded like he came from the US, and perhaps was a similar dual citizen. That vaguely passed my mind, Richard. But obviously there are benefits in moving to Israel. A university education? So yes, I could be jealous about that, but that's about it. I left the thought behind, since I see that he is getting involved. I am assuming that he learned a lot in the short time he lives there. We both simply do not know enough about him to judge this as someone with double standards from the surface. He could be much more sensitive to the behavior of his fellow Americans since he is one himself. He could have moved to Israel since he felt it was in a crisis, and he does see that many, many other Americans don't seem to be aware of it? It could be their behavior disturbed him already in the States but he sees that it shows much more clearly and openly in Israel? I deliberately choose the most negative, advantage interpretation first. That's how suspicion works.
there is no shame in trying to understand the dark heart of man only in turning a blind eye to needless suffering by anyone anywhere at any time for any reason
There was no letter agreement. Israel is claiming an oral agreement and using Elliott Abrams to back that up. Now they are accusing the US of failing to live up to its agreements. There was no agreement. Israel is engaged in deception to obscure the fact that they kept building settlements when they promised not to.
I am using Explorer 8 and have only a few problems. The "paging" problem seems to be a disrepancy between the number of pages with replies expanded or hidden. But you know what? The people in Israel can go hang! I'm going to Edmonds to buy (hopefully) a Hammond A-100. One of the first A-100s I ever played was at North Shore Synagogue in Syosset NY, where Rabbi Green (at that time) presided. And my Gentile wife is even enthused about picking up a Leslie for it. Would a Jewish wife let me buy a Hammond and Leslie? In memory of my Mom, the first song I will play is "Fly Me to the Moon", her favorite. If this doesn't work out today, I will be back, and I will be freakin' upset and angry! If it does work out, bye-bye, Israel and Palestine, hello, "Mr. Lucky" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0MYZMDmYBQ
If Obama insists on continuing Bush's wars, he hasn't got a chance. Not to mention the public's expectation he would stop them. The military will Obama blind. I ask again: What the hell is the military going to do for Obama that they couldn't do for Bush? And now the military is seven years in and every intelligent and balanced person has left.
"Numbers will give Phil a livelihood. But, they DON'T accomplish any valid mission if they invoke hatred in any way" Oh, for sure Richard. Phil's gonna name ALL his children after you. You, no doubt, have heard of the Haf'torah? Phil's going to name his kid Phillip (jr.) Haf-Witty Weiss! Your faith in Phil Wiess is very touching. Not for you the crass accusations of ziocaine intoxication. No, for Richard Witty there is only friendship and loyalty! BTW, Richard, I made sure to collect all of your best, most tender declarations of your faith in Phil's journalistic integrity and e-mail them to Mondoweiss, in case Phil didn't get to see them. Such friendship should not go unheralded!
Bradallen, I don't want to shock you, but the "Ugly American" was the HERO of the book of the same name. The "pretty Americans" were the villians. But then, I would expect you to refer to books you obviously haven't read.
Jake, that stinging sensation is the door, hitting you in the ass on the way out. You are leaving because you know that as soon as Phil gets back he is going to ban your ass so fast it'll make your head spin. BTW, all the hateful things you said about Arabs were "facts"? A typical ziocaine addict. He woke up with a hangover, can't remember what he said, and it's everybody else's fault. Run away, chicken!
"I came to Mondoweis a few weeks ago and I am now leaving." As the Major-General said: "Yes, but you don't go!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZVQ2RJ9tLk&fe... At about 4:00 min. in. "Damn it, Mabel, he's still here!"
This is something I noticed too. Just as my earlier lengthy response has disappeared by now. But in this context that is the old bug many noticed. Up there are "3 replies" if I open the link, there is only yours. But lately I seem to have noticed that a complete separate comment, not a post inside a thread so to speak, can disappear too, and later surface again. I'd love to eavesdrop on the conversations of the software engineers.
nanuk…hear hear
Lea, please be more careful to denote quoted material in your excellent comments. May I please encourage you to use italics in addition to quote marks, and if this comment system has a "blockquote" option, use it. It is essential to easily distinguish quoted material from your own comments. Thanks.
..just read Karin Friedemann's piece. holy crap!
You remain terrified of the facts. Not a single posting of yours contributed to a search for the truth. MondoLies can keep Mooser; you're a match made in heaven. Incidentally, I have no fear at all of "Phil". If he's afraid of the truth and will ban me, then it seems that PHIL is the one afraid of the truth. Just like you.
The complete disregard for Judaism shown by Zionists is always shocking to me. No one has the right to "hate" a religion, as such. States, that's a different story. As the ziocaine addicts always tell us "Israel is just another country". And they are right! And countries, like Israel, do things in pursuit of their aims which make people hate them. It can't be helped. That it happens to reflect badly on Judaism doesn't concern them at all.
The anonymous poster "Citizen" demonstrates precisely what I wrote about. Irrational, non-factual, antisemitic. ("Manson with a skull cap"????) Wallow in your own filth,"Citizen"; I want no part of it. You are terrified of the truth and prefer your own comforting bigotry.
Richard Witty said: "the Mondoweiss brand suffered…" The only thing that suffered as a result of this video is Israel's carefully crafted image in the US. The rest of the world already knows how awful the majority of Israelis are.
NAW!!!!!!!!! brian fuckin auger, man! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzvcGNOjLn0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzvcGNOjLn0
There are infrequent antisemitic comments on this site, and there are also anti-Arab and anti-gentile statements of equal vitriol. By far and away what you are hearing is anger and resentment, not hatred. It can take a while to learn to tell the difference, and everyone's increased emotional response to post-Gaza events makes it more difficult. Is it more akin to a feeding frenzy or the lancing of a boil? Adding fuel to the fire, so to speak, keeps puss production as high or higher than the drain rate, obscuring the underlying metaphorical dynamic. Perhaps your tone has something to do with the personal ire you have aroused. Your choice of language suggests that you take criticism of Israeli or Lobby policies personally. Perceived attacks on aspects of one's fundamental identity always gets one's hackles up. However, that kind of rhetorical response just stimulates others into emulating it. Seriously guy, do you think the majority of people on this site are either 'Jew-hating Right Wing Nazis' or 'Jew-hating Left Wing terrorist apologists'? I hope you change your mind. I have learned a thing of two from people I still deem extremists, and I hope I have changed some of their perspectives slightly as well. I used to think all Zionists were extremists, but I realize now that that view is incorrect. I now try to use the term 'extremist Zionist' or 'colonial Zionist' to differentiate between those who support continued ethnic cleansing and colonization of the West Bank based on biblical notions of ownership and outmoded security arguments, and 'Zionists' who want a secure Jewish state within the 1967 borders both as a safe-haven in case of a resurgence in global antisemitism and as a fulfillment of their national aspirations. I have no problem with the latter as long as Palestinians are treated and recompensed fairly and in such a way that American support is not blamed for Israeli injustices. This slight change in perspective may seem a trivial thing. However, having the dialogue is important even if you still disagree at the end. I think there is plenty of room for improvement in the level of civility on this site that I think is necessary for fruitful conversations, and I am guilty of it as well. This is the responsibility of we commenters, not the management who serve as a filter of completely out-of-bounds statements. I think that the way to do that is to refrain from vitriolic language and chastise those who don't. I disagree with Richard Witty about many things, but he has taken a lot of unfair crap from people and kept his cool, which I think induces people to at least try to understand where he is coming from. That understanding is a main point of the dialogue, not just the attempt to change the views of others.
The narrative positing Jews as slaves in Egypt is not historically accurate. They were well-cared for public works project laborers, indentured servants, just as many other groups conquered by ancient Egypt were. They were demoted from being war allies, with the extra privileges and independence that went with that status. Their egos couldn't stand to do physical labor as other conquered groups, so they attacked Egyptian towns, killed and robbed there, and hatted out with their booty–that's the real history of the Exodus. The Egyptian army that chased them were chasing murderers, and thieves criminals by Egyptian law. The Romans gave them a lot of slack in turn, and were rewarded by constant turmoil in that province. Under Roman law they were traitors and terrorists. Subsequently the non-Jewish people in the same area, original Canaanites, stayed on; they are today the Palestinians. There is no physical link between the Ashkenazis from Europe and the land of the former Mandate. When non-Jews or Jews correct the Zionist and Torah myths they are deemed anti-semites or self-hating jews. The State Of Israel is a state made by the sword. Those who want to see it live on should be more than happy to uproot all settlements and settle for the '67borders, themselves not an honest rendition of the original partition idea, nor in keeping with the equity of the Balfour Declaration. Gentiles should wake up and see they might as well take a stand because anything they say criticizing the Zionist narrative will be held against them eternally. Obama should use foreign aid as a stick to beat the stiff-necked into line with minimum needed to enhance US security and interests, as well as Israel's.
This troubles me too.
I love my brother.
I'm a young non-Jewish American. I've been on a number of college breaks, including to Mexico. I never heard anyone, even the real drunks, ever echo skinhead/Nazi talk. It's obvious to me that these dual citizen youth demand PC in the USA and racism in Israel. Could anything be more evil?
You want I sure worship the American Jew who killed all those praying muslims? Crawl back in your rabid zionist hole.
While Phil was away, and wrote four interesting pieces from Gaza, Adam got the Mondoweiss name out to 100,000 youtube watchers. I saw the video again this morning on the Haaretz front page. Brand recognition. Will it persuade Jews to learn more about the real world, the political world, the world of affects on others? Will it persuade Jews to hide away? My son went to a yeshiva in Israel about eight months ago, and returned to the states disappointed, describing that the students seemed more to be looking for a free ride to party,than to seriously study and apply Torah, exactly what was presented in the video. But again, the sand thrown to the wind is different than the sand when in the bag.
Good. Bye.
well said Colin. Your post reflects my feelings and i hope people continue to post both sides, that's how we learn to exchange info without resorting to ignorance. I am surprised and dispappointed with what Jake said, i had exchaged a couple of posts with him and hoped we were ble to share good info. It seems like frank and open exchange scares some people. Just like these kids who are now scared that Obama is not blatently and openly siding with everything Israeli leaders say like Bush and Clinton. Anyway, hopefully, Jake and others like him continue to contribute and to expct that not everything they believe in is always the only side.
I don't know about that. I will believe the Quranic story that celebrates their freedom from the Egyptians. But other stuff, you got some good points.
Colin: "There are infrequent antisemitic comments on this site" Your comment betrays a serious lack of understanding of the issues and sensitivities. Slanderous, Malicious, Libelous lies, presented here daily, are most certainly antisemitic. Colin: "do you think the majority of people on this site are either 'Jew-hating Right Wing Nazis' or 'Jew-hating Left Wing terrorist apologists'? " No one knows about lurkers but posters here OVERWHELMINGLY fit one of those two descriptions. Of course, if you don't understand "antisemitic", then you won't understand "Nazi", either.
Colin: "I now … term 'extremist Zionist' … those who support continued ethnic cleansing and colonization of the West Bank" Oh, boy. I will repeat, just for you: There IS NO ETHNIC CLEANSING on the West Bank, at least not by Israel – though the "Palestineans" DEMAND that their territory be Judenrein. (When you look up "Nazi", look up "Judenrein".) Every fifth Israeli citizen is an Arab – no ethnic cleansing. There are another 2-3 millions "Palestieans" – and their economic, educational and civil rights circumstances have IMPROVED REMARKABLY while living under Israeli rule – I am an eye-witness to this. No ethnic cleansing. Colin, you might be well-meaning but you really have no idea what is really going on here – and you are ignoring the available facts (like the ones I note here).
Anyone who knows little or nothing about the situation (I will be the first to say that the M E is very complex) and who manages to avoid the anti-Zionist and antisemitic propaganda can see that Israel is the Good Guy in this argument – in nearly every single argument. People who seek "even-handedness" between the rapist and the raped will not find justice.
Mooser has contributed a lot in the free flow of ideas on this blog. All regular readers realize he is not a black hat-white hat type. You, Jake, on the other hand, live in an opera in your mind, and you have made it clear who wears the white hat, who the black. Wake up to reality. Otherwise, yes, watch out for the door knob hitting your flat tukas on the way out to your mother's house.
The likudnik version of zionism brand has suffered, merely because a single ray of light has shone down via a small hole in the blanket of darkness AIPAC owns.
My use of the term chamelion wasn't meant to be that deep. :) I was just saying that some of these people, who advance Israel's agenda, whether right or wrong, will do so by contradicting themselves and then pretending that the contradiction never happened. Like the article that put forward the argument that said that the Muslims view of the Holocaust as a historical injustice for which the Palestinians suffered is anti-semitic. Previously, I had never heard that argument and it alwasy, 'What about the Holocaust?'–meant as a justification for the establishment of Israel and ongoing occupation of Palestine.
I thought you were gone?Not a man of your words, huh?
You are so cool. lol. (God I'm a sucker for poetry)
"Johnson's spying on Israel for Egypt in the middle of the Six Day War" Wow! You sure must have a rich fantasy life, Jake. Sounds like you need to get out into the real world more.
And note that the scarf Rachel Ray wore wasn't even actually a keffiyeh.
People like jake have long since convinced me there are NOT two sides to the I-P issue. It is not a "position" or "perspective" or "platform" to simply lie and then lie and then lie and then lie and deny the findings of every human rights bureau on earth, deny overwhelming world opinion as the to illegality of the wall and settlements, deny massacres and ethnic cleansing that appear in israel's OWN military archives etc etc ad nauseum. "oh the Palestinians are doing just fine and if they're not–it's their fault." These people have NOTHING to contribute to a discussion except lies and denial. It's a waste of time to engage them or even bother reading their Nazi crap.
How can we miss you if you won't go away?
"There IS NO ETHNIC CLEANSING on the West Bank" May I suggest you go and tell that story in the West Bank and see how well they buy it there?
Your posting is rambling and non-sensical. As usual. If you believe EVERYTHING you find on someone's website, well, you have a few problems, don't you? Fact: The Sixth Fleet sent air cover to support the Liberty when it was attacked but the aircraft were re-called TWICE. Check it out. Fact: Israel had air superiority in that area, in good weather and could easily have sunk the Liberty if they wanted to, but didn't. Fact. Fact: Israel was an ally of the USA in 1967 and still is. Why would Israel attack an ally? Any motive offered??? Fact: The Liberty was on a spy mission against Israel. Ask the Liberty survivors. (They might not legally be allowed to speak, though…)
Fact: President Gamal Abdel Nasser refused all offers of a ceasefire until the Liberty attack, fully expecting to use the Liberty spy data on Israel's redeployment from the Egyptian front to the Syrian front to retake Sinai and attack Israel. The day after the Liberty attack, with Liberty data no longer, available Nasser PLEADED for a ceasefire. Fact. Fact: The USS Liberty had taken on Hebrew Language specialists to spy on Israeli radio communications. (Ask the Liberty crew…) I can go on and on.
Perhaps the best FACT is one that YOU "Citizen" posted yourself!!! I will quote you in entirety: "For decades, those aboard the USS Liberty were threatened with a possible ten-thousand dollar fine, Ten Years of Imprisonment “or worse” if they revealed the truth about this unwarranted attack. The cover-up of this unprecedented slaughter by Israel is considered to be the second day of infamy and is one of the most guarded secrets in US history by a number of Americans who committed acts of treason. Every American should know what happened, get involved and never forget!"
Gentle reader, use your brains. Why would the US threaten US servicemen with imprisonment "or worse" for talking about their wartime experiences? What was the secret spy mission that the USS Liberty Spy Ship was on at the time? Why did the Pentagon notify Israel that they had no ships in the area and that the Liberty was probably a Russian or Egyptian ship masquerading as American? The US is only trying to cover the ass of the US govt in this case. This is why I fully supported and continue to support your call for an open investigation into the Liberty incident. Congress won't do it because the results will paint the US in a bad light. And the poor sailors on the Liberty are suffering as a result of Johnson's treachery.
OK, tell us what the USS Liberty was doing a few kilometers off the Gaza coast in the middle of the Six Day War … Go on, challenge us intellectually… Explain why the Pentagon and the State Dept both denied having any ships in the area when Israel asked them what this ship was doing there? Tell us what kind of ship the Liberty was: Aircraft carrier? helicopter carrier? Battleship? It was an electronic eavesdropping ship and had just taken on Hebrew linguists to listen to Israel. Ask the Liberty crew if they are willing to speak. You clearly know nothing about the real world of spying…