That's Norman Finkelstein at right, posing questions last night to three Hamas officials at left. The questions came from the delegation to Gaza that I'm with, which was organized by Code Pink, the antiwar group. Notice the microphone in Finkelstein's left hand.
I asked about a statement by John Ging, the head of United Nations relief organization here (UNWRA), that some of the victims in the Gaza war were "killed because they were taken as human shields."
Basem Naim, the Health Minister, at center on the dais, denied that this had taken place, saying that if it had, evidence of the practice would have come out by now. Besides, he said, Hamas militants are related to 99 percent of the population here so they would not have done so. He went on to attack Fatah, saying that it has held the entire Palestinian people hostage because it is "committed to the fruitless peace process."
Naim stressed that Hamas was prepared to make a longlasting truce with Israel on the basis of the 1967 lines, but as matters stand the group will not give up its right to militant resistance to occupation–which he said George Washington had also not been willing to give up.
As for Ging's statement that some of those killed in the war were "human shields," he made it the other day in an audience with a mixed group of mostly-American students and activists. He said that among many international laws Israel had violated during the war were international norms on the "duty of care" in a "hostage" situation. If someone is holding hostages in a bank, you don't "throw a grenade in and go home for tea," he said.
The other Hamas officials at the table are Fauzy Barhoom, a spokesman for the party, at left, and Taher Al-Nounou, a government spokesman, at right.
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{ 39 comments }
George Washington did not target and murder the children of his enemy. The comparison is laughable as is this website and the hateful motives of its operators. Most serial killers do not look like killers, until they are caught, then the evil in their faces is all you see. The face of Hamas is more like that of John Wayne Gacey, a serial killer hiding behind a clown mask.
Were there other questions asked? Actually truth-probing ones. The inference of human sheilds is not only in the limited literal sense of a single person holding a single other person as a shield, but in the broader sense of constructing militarily used missiles and other offensive weapons in civilian neighborhoods. It unnecessarily puts civilians into the line of fire, whether physically carried as human shields or not. Is the reason that Hamas opposes the peace process because it is fruitless (by some unidentified criteria), or for some other reason? And still, is terror on civilians a valid form of resistance by anyone's definition. It is NOT attacks on military, or the actual occupation, but an effort to chase the Jews away. Not exactly an assertion of democracy in goal or method. Relative to terror on civilians, his comment about throwing a grenade in then going home for tea is too hypocritical for my patience. The history of terror is the elephant in the room, relative to Hamas and to their horrid willingness to expose the Gazan population to the warring that results from that horrid political agenda and partisan opportunism.
Your whole comment is too hypocritical for my patience.
Is the reason that Israel opposes the peace process because it is fruitless (and would mean to give up Judea and Samaria), or for some other reason? Is Israel expanding the paradigmatic red lines for future civil wars, wars against unruly citizen in crowded parts of the city? A human shield is everybody that doesn't spy on his neighbor and informs him to the police. A new generation of Nazi "Blockwärter" (guardians/watchdogs of the block) are needed, for a braver future. But once the attack starts that won't help the many, many watchdogs anymore either, since then they are considered collectively as the enemy? Terrrorism, terrorism, terrorism: How about the history of Israeli terror, is and was that self-defense only? What about Rabin? What about real or intelligence about settler violence and plans? The righteous people can never be terrorists? It's the Arabs only?
I still wonder, what question Norman Finkelstein just asked. Why he turns his side. Did he just step back to give others a chance to see the person answering. Why is that person reading from a paper, or does he only look down. Or who answers anyway? Who is the person standing next to Norman? Will we one day get all questions and answers? …
I think that all of your questions can be easily answered. Norman Finkelstein is turned to his side so that the panel can directly address the audience which we cannot see in the picture….The person(s) looking down are not addressing the audience in this photo, apparently Fauzy Barhoom is the one addressing the audience. The other panel members could be looking down as a sign of modesty and respect for the women in the audience since it considered as Islamically disrespectful to stare at women that are not Halal to you, meaning married or close relatives…The person standing in the back ground is either a technical support person or a Hamas body guard…
The history of terror is the elephant in the room … Terror is a state of mind or emotion. Terrorism is violence designed to cause terror. A better understanding of the history, current practice, and motivation of terrorism is a worthy goal. Your use of the elephant analogy implies that people know the history of terror, but are ignoring it because they are afraid of the reactions of others if they point it out. This certainly does not apply in this case. However, it does apply to the pink and red elephants of Israel ethnic cleansing and colonization, and the Lobby's role in dragging America into it.
The Zionist settlements in Occupied Palestine, "puts civilians and their children into the line of fire." The Israeli government uses civilians and their families as shields for their territorial expansion.
Terror directed at civilians is objective. It is clear to all that bother to look. Distracting the focus of questions away from Hamas is a way to keep them immature and unaccountable. They are parties to the conflict, not victims. The Gazan civilians can be said to be victims, but Hamas can in no way be accurately described that way.
If the Gaza civilians are victims, then they are victims of the IDF and the state of Israel, which is directing terror at civilians. Why do you never question distracting the focus away from the IDF, which has been immature and unaccountable for over half a century now? In fact, much of your "questions" are merely distractions away from the focus of questions about the actions of the IDF and Israel. Why pretend to be a seeker of truth when all you are really doing is obfuscating?
Comments that ask if Weiss and company asked Hamas about their terror acts against civilians such as the Passover dinner in Netanya and the Sbarro Pizzeria to name just 2 out of thousands are deleted. I guess when you are intent on demonizing Israel, the facts don't matter.
Well, what would you like them to ask about it?
It's called reframing, Tree, a standard hasbara technique. Richard Witty is very consistent at it, though not very subtle.
How clever of you, Richard Witty, to go on about the very questionable human shields allegation against Hamas when Israel has made such a clear cut and well-documented practice of exactly that. Why, there are even photographs of Palestinian kids forced to sit on the hoods of Israeli military vehicles.. And, of course, the expectation is that members of a guerrilla resistance force will not live in their homes with their families, and will not fight in the cities that are being attacked, but will set themselves up in bases out in some remote open, uninhabited area (preferably with a target carefully painted around it with the base as the bulls eye), and will confine their fighting to areas well away from the cities that are under attack – in order to avoid civilian casualties, of course.
Thanks Marion, that's mainly what I thought before I looked closer. Maybe the fact that the man next to the one on the right is also looking at the paper in front of the man next to him, made me wonder if he is reading something. Obviously I looked closer, since I would have loved to have a video of this encounter. To hear every question and every answer.
"because it is fruitless (by some unidentified criteria)" Unidentified citeria? I think the criteria employed by Hamas here could not possibly be any clearer nor more obvious. The peace negotiations have gotten us nowhere. Israel continues it's illegal occupation, thanks to the support of the USA. Israel continues it's illegal expansion via settlements since 1967, with america's blessing and support. Palestinian territory is still being taken over, Palestinian homes are still being demolished. Palestinians are still in armed rebellion against Israel, so Israelis still cry about the "next Holocaust" and use "security" as an excuse to colonise more territory.. I'm sure if Palestinians had the means to pierce tanks, shoot Apache helicopters out of the sky and to place a bomb on Netanyahu's lap, they would prefer that than resorting to Cold War era AK-47s and shooting crappy home-made missiles up in the hope that it hits something.
Its always enlightening to see political personalities in real life. First, like all elements of Phil's trip, he sees rather than is passively spoonfed, even as he has limited opportunity to follow up research context, and confirm his thoughts on what happened and is happening. My impressions from the list of questions that Phil cites here as posed, is that they were soft-ball, questions that one would ask if one were afraid.
The other element of seeing celebrities in real life, is that it is real life. They are not larger than life. They are people just like you and me. And, from that, one wonders why they have power at all, non-peer power. Power beyond a rational argument, a rational proposal, beyond personal characteristics of dependability and sincerity, integrity.
Fine, let's talk about the Passover dinner in Netanya and the Sbarro Pizzeria and those "thousands" of terror acts. How many Israelis were killed in those terror acts?
Thousands of Isarelis have been killed by terrorist attacks. Remember that until a few years ago, your "Palestinean Liberation Armies" EXCLUSIVELY attacked citizens; it is only recently that they began attacking Israeli soldiers, as well. Terrorists by any standard. The daugther of a friend of mine was murdered at Sbarro. In the name of Allah and Palestine – and Horowitz and Weiss. The whole Scheeverschuder family was murdered at the Passover Seder attack. In both cases, several dozen other Jews were murdered. Another thing: 9 in 10 attempted attacks in the last few years has been thwarted by Israel before they were carried out. The intended death toll would otherwise be much higher. Also: IslamoFascists have murdered many others in other places. For the greater glory of Allah. Also: Islamo-Kooks have murdered even MORE of each other. At least 3,000,000 Mulsims slaughtered by Muslims in the last 25 years.
The significance of the term "objective" is that it is not an interpretation, but a fact. It occurred, and it significantly and rationally contributes to the construction of the collective psychology of Zionists. To exclude the trauma that Gazans experienced would be to live a half-truth. To exclude the trauma that Israelis have experienced, particularly of the 90's and early 2000's gruesome murder of Israeli civilians, from your math of the CURRENT status, is similarly ignorant. If a reframing, I am attempting to reframe the conflict as a conflict, rather than the convenient definition of oppression. Reframing is an intellectual process. EVERY intellectual that has something to say, "frames" their argument in the setting that they believe is relevant.
I'm sure they wish they had modern weapons to exact as much harm on Israeli civilians as they could. That proves the IDF point, sadly. There are more effective ways to achieve Palestinian goals than terror on civilians.
I had that experience when I saw Norman Finkelstein present publicly and to introduce myself and shake his hand. I realized that he was just another guy, another selective presenter who had valid things to say, and utterly inane and confrontational things to say for the purpose of confrontation. I wish he had more self-restraint, so that his valid comments actually carried some weight and weren't so easily dismissed.
Tens of thousands of Palestinians have been killed by terrorist attacks. Of course, the IDF only targets militants but we all know that to the IDF, any breathing Palestinian is a militant. Several families were wiped out in the recent Gaza offensive. Another thing: If Israel had its way, there would be no Palestinian left in the Greater Palestine/Israel area, but obviously, you just can't do that any more.
Enlighten us – What questions would you have asked? The Human Shields accusation is one that comes up routinely, it was a valid accusation and I doubt they've been asked that one many times before. I also doubt someone that was afraid would ask such a question.
The members of the IDF are also people just like you and me. They are not larger than life, but the weapons the US gives them provides them with larger than life powers, that are used to kill and terrorize Palestinian civilians. Yet, when the blood letting is over, they make juvenile sport of what they have done by printing sophomoric t-shirts exhibiting the bravado only modern weapons can provide them. US weapons are the conduit providing these young people power beyond any rationality to match their youthful, murderous exuberance. It is the American people who must restrain themselves and withhold gifts of arms to these misguided killers.
Fact 1 – Shafiq if an IslamoFascist liar. Proof – While Shafiq is correct in saying that tens of thousands of Pals have been kiilled in terrorist attacks, pretty much ALL of these attacks were by other Pal terrorists. Examples: Black September in Jordan, Lebanon, Tunisia and, of course Gaza itself. As for targetting militants, it is the IslamoFascists themselves who have REPEATEDLY AND PROUDLY anounced that all Jews everywhere are "legitimate targets". Israel, USA, etc, target militants only. Israel HAS had it's way for decades… and Arabs are now fully 20% of the population of Israel – and that is ignoring the so-called "Palestineans" who are not citizens of the state. Shafiq, you are a loser. Again.
The Gazans are victims of their own decisions and actions. They overwhelmingly chose an IslamoFascist govt (and I respect their decision) but thy deny responsibility for the disaster that Hamas has brought on them. Arabs everywhere love to blame Israel, the USA, EVERYONE for their own ineptness. Gaza is no different.
Fact 1 – Shafiq if an IslamoFascist liar. Is that seriously the best you can come up with? That I'm an Islamofascist (a lovely Bushism) liar? How old are you? 12?
In the decision to resume shelling of Israeli civilians at the end of December, were there dissenters to that conclusion? What were their arguments? In retrospect, do think that decision to resume shelling of Israeli civilians was a good one? Do you think that it improved the welfare of Gazans? In your current policy of not shelling Israeli civilians, are you satisfied with the results? Do you intend to regard that as a basis of negotiation with Israel directly or by proxy? Are you sincere that you are willing to co-exist with Israel? Are you willing to abide by treaties and other international written agreements that the PA entered with Israel, US, Arab, European states?
It happens with anyone that bears arms, relative to those that don't.
Yes of course. It's the Palestinians' fault that the IDF flew planes over them and bombed their houses whilst they were sleeping inside. And of course the inferior Arabs love to blame everyone but themselves. After all, they are slimy, sub-human creatures coming in the way of the US (the Greatest Nation in the World) and Jewish Israel (God's Chosen People)
I'm sure they wish they had modern weapons to exact as much harm on Israeli civilians as they could. That proves the IDF point, sadly. And how exactly did you come to that conclusion? There are more effective ways to achieve Palestinian goals than terror on civilians. I'd respect you a lot more if you actually listed these ways and explained to me why (with minimal Hasbara) they are more effective.
It is the American people who must restrain themselves and withhold gifts of arms to these misguided, Israeli killers.
al Shafiq has returned! All Praise to Allah!!! al Shafiq, lookup QASSAM. The "peaceful sleeping people of Gaza" have fired over 8,000 rockets at CIVILIAN ISRAELI TARGETS in the past 2 years or so. In VIOLATION OF GENEVA CONVENTIONS AND ALL MORAL STANDARDS. When Israel FINALLY FIRED BACK, you act so suprised??? As for Arabs blaming everyone else, have a look at what Arab dissidents say about this. Arabs are famous for blaming everyone but themselves. Pals are just champions at this.
Abu Shafiq, I can do much better, but I am being kind to you… so far… That you are a liar and apparently unaware of simple facts and current events has been demonstrated in many exchanges with you. It therefore remains a fact. No, I am not 12. Keep guessing… P.S. You haven't addressed a single point I made. YOu really don't like the facts, do you? All hail Alla the Merciful? Off with your heads????
al Shafiq – Hah! Good one. I see what you've done there – Clever! And obviously, Israel never hit Gaza during this period and the blockade was nothing but an illusion. Something I've realised is that, when you deliberately starve people; starve them of their livelihood, medical goods, and electricity; stop them from leaving their own land (or entering), even when they have scholarships to university abroad; they tend to do funny things like fire rockets (home-made ones that don't fire well)
al Shafiq crows from his minaret: "you deliberately starve people; starve them of their livelihood, medical goods, and electricity" Have you seen a SINGLE underfed Pal? They are OBESE! Look at the photos. Compare them with Darfurian Christians who REALLY ARE being starved in the name of Mohammed. Israel SUPPLIES Pals with food, water, electricity, medications… things they never even KNEW about under Egyptian and Jordanian occupation. Israel STILL supplies these things to the Pals. Listen to Obama. Be honest. Even in public. Hmmm… probably impossible for the al Shagiq…
Have you seen a SINGLE underfed Pal? They are OBESE Well, the UN disagree's with you. Gaza has one of the highest rate of malnourished children in the world, worse than most places in Sub-Saharan Africa Israel SUPPLIES Pals with food, water, electricity, medications… things they never even KNEW about under Egyptian and Jordanian occupation. Israel STILL supplies these things to the Pals. Why don't you go to Gaza and look at the situation yourself? Maybe, just maybe you'll see the picture the rest of us see. Gaza's not that far from Jerusalem, I'm sure it's not that hard to make the trip.
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