We've been conducting a roundtable here 'round the challenge to come up with some positive formula toward a solution in Israel/Palestine, reflecting the fact that the left is finally in the house. Today Sammer Aboelela, a leader of Muslim progressives in the New York area, and my roommate in Gaza, weighs in with some concrete proposals on "How to build a popular American movement around the moral imperative of Palestinian human rights."
Due to our massive investment in Palestinian oppression, we Americans are in a unique position of influence. As it stands, a hawkish minority view of the conflict has overwhelmed the mainstream media – the best way to counter this, in my opinion, is with grassroots action. My personal impression is that the vast majority of Americans are largely apathetic when it comes to the conflict and essentially ignorant of the Palestinian struggle. If the conflict can be understood as a human rights struggle by a sizable percentage of the American population, political pressure can be applied from the bottom up.
This, of course, is not a new idea. Motivated by the Civil Rights and South African antiapartheid movements, individuals and organizations have been engaged in this kind of work for decades. An American movement for Palestinian rights faces certain unique challenges, not least of which is the special sort of racism that lumps all Arab peoples into the category of ‘terrorist’ and attempts to rationalize the state murder of innocents and the denial of basic human rights as necessary to maintaining both American and Israeli security. Nevertheless, the success of past movements demonstrates that Americans have a tremendous capacity for empathy when it comes to the suffering of oppressed peoples, and a popular movement that articulates a compelling moral imperative can overcome well-financed and politically-entrenched opposition. Here are some of the key steps I think are immediately required in order for us to move forward: <Br>
1. “Detribalize” the Narrative
Most Americans are neither Arab nor Jewish and the casting of the conflict as a struggle between age-old tribal enemies only serves to subvert popular interest. AIPAC has capitalized on this perception, but even organizations like J-Street play into this a bit by engaging in an “intra-tribal” battle for the Jewish soul. Of course, this struggle is an important one for the Jewish community to sort out for itself, but in the grand scheme it should be seen for the sideshow that it is. Recast the plight of Palestinians more honestly – as the struggle for human rights (including the right to protection under established law) that it is – and it suddenly becomes more relevant to all of us American taxpayers so heavily invested in Palestinian disenfranchisement.
2. Humanize the Palestinian People and their Struggle
In Gaza, Phil and I had the opportunity to witness the Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation firsthand. We saw fishermen steadfastly leaving shore before dawn knowing that harassment, kidnapping, and possibly worse await them as they peaceably go about their trade. Gazan farmers unable to import fertilizer due to the siege are learning and applying organic farming methods in order to feed their families and neighbors. Blockade-subverting tunnels are abuzz with activity… digging, hauling, loading, unloading – the work to bring in outlawed essentials is relentless.
This is the nature of the people and their resistance. In Obama’s speech to the world’s Muslims last month, he scolded the violent fraction of the Palestinian resistance and with finger in full (metaphorical) wag, insisted that Palestinians adopt a non-violent strategy. It’s a pity that our President should remain ignorant of the remarkable spirit of gentle defiance with which the farmers, fishermen, and tunnel workers go about their respective trades. When Israeli gunships shoot at Gazan fishermen, no one returns fire. When remote-controlled gun towers fire upon Gazan farmers, there is no violent rebuttal. A determined non-violent survival ethic is the main driving force of the Gazan resistance. It is a shame that this is such a poorly understood fact.
3. Messaging to a Wider American Audience
As we walked through the farms and spoke to farmers living under the constant threat of being shot while working their own land, I wondered how American farmers in the Midwest would relate to this story. As we spoke to fishermen unable to make a living or feed their families due to the maritime attacks by occupation forces, I thought about America’s career and sport fishermen. Do these struggles relate more directly to certain Americans than the 2009 massacre of Gaza?
In order to advance a popular American movement in support of Palestine, it will be critical to involve Americans who have up until now remained ambivalent or ignorant with respect to the conflict. This means describing the conflict in terms that relate to the lives of the people we’re trying to reach. For many, human and moral struggles are infinitely more compelling than political policy and punditry. As long as the Palestinian struggle is obscured by political language or racist hatespeech, large swaths of the American population will remain disinterested.
So that’s what I propose. It’s more an approach to the problem than a solution, but I feel that as long as the United States is going to continue playing an enormous role, there’s a need for the American people to understand the Palestinian struggle if there’s to be hope for an equitable resolution. We need writers, journalists, documentarians, artists, and grassroots organizers to spread a message that the mainstream media won’t touch. We need to be willing to engage sincerely with Americans who do not share our ideological disposition.
Related posts:
- Touchdown! Americans Support Israel Over Palestinians, 57-6
- Nonviolent protests are also taking place in Gaza
- What do Palestinians want?? 2/3 say Rockets must stop. 3/5 say Hamas should recognize Israel
- Hey Jews, let’s stop using our exceptionalist narrative for political cover!
- Benjamin, Finkelstein and Aboelela to speak about trip to Gaza
{ 82 comments }
A better suggestion would be to start telling the truth instead of parroting Arab propaganda. Americans are never going to accept being misled. Precisely why your effort is a doomed venture.
Thank you, Sammer. What an excellent post.
Yes! Great thoughts. When's the first meeting? Strong symbolic graphics of the problem will help to attract people to the the material. The NY Times just had a piece on the power of pictures. Neda, Obama and the Power of Pictures http://ethicist.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/the-...
Is that what you meant by proposal? I meant something different. I thought that you had risen to my challenge to propose a goal, rather than your discussion of proposal of tactic.
Wonderful comments by your roommate. I take minor issue with the characterization of J Street, in that what distinguishes groups like J Street is that they have adopted the view of the humanization of Palestinians, and in the case of being called "self-hating" in some way is saintly in humanizing the "other". The other critical comment I would make is that there is really insufficient validation of the extent that the terror on civilians by Hamas in the 90's and early 2000's effected Israeli consciousness. The shelling of Sderot and neighboring communities was irritating, but not to the extent of the terror campaigns. The shelling of Sderot "merely" communicated, "We continue to hate you and will never accept your presence." It is a VERY different spirit than the humane one that Mr Aboelala describes otherwise. The presence of Hamas in power creates a dilemma for those Israelis, Americans, Europeans, that sincerely do recognize the humanity of Palestinians, but must then reconcile with the more rejectionist approaches by Hamas and other even just verbal militants. Mutual humanization is what makes changes. Gazans as victims is real, but doesn't create a path for tangible improvement.
Very insightful, Sammer. I believe your suggestions regarding the use of Gazan farmers and fishermen working under constant threat of loss of life as an example Americans might relate to has much potential for changing the dialogue from the "bottom up", as you say. I plan on incorporating this in my own organization's work. My only issue is that at some point, and I'm speaking from experience here, the conversation inevitably does turn to political language. You are astute in asserting that the discourse must focus on the Palestinian cause being a human rights issue first and foremost, and this conflict is indeed swimming in human rights issues the vast majority of Americans would be appalled at were they to realize the truth. There are, however, political implications, and in conversations on the street, in lecture halls, and at the supper table, these political issues are always brought up. This is a battle I am constantly fighting with other activists, many of whom want to start the dialogue on the street with the political issues, talk about the inherent fallacy and racism in Zionist ideology, fire off statistics about the Nakba within the first five minutes of contact, and so on. We should all agree that our goal as activists here in the West is to help garner maximum support for the Palestinian cause, as that support is from which all other positive moves on our end come: boycotting, divestment and sanctioning, the shifting of public opinion, and hopefully an eventual just solution to the conflict we all dedicate so much of our lives to. My question is this: being that our goal is "maximum effect" in garnering support for Palestine and for peace, and that we want to keep the focus on the human rights aspect of the Palestinian struggle, how do we treat the issue when it inevitably turns political? We can't ignore the politics, because not offering answers to valid questions turns people away as much as hot political rhetoric does…
Richard, I think your response serves a tactical purpose of avoiding a solution by debating the future, when the present is intolerable, and delay has been forever used by Israel to grab more land via illegal settlements. How's this for a goal: Israel stops behaving badly, now!
Thank you, Sammer Aboelela, for articulating so clearly what I too believe. Thank you, Phil, for your persistence and your actions. Indymedia.org is active globally, and in areas throughout the US. It can be used to find, and is available for people to post, information about local events. "Publish your news"
Richard, you're right… I deliberately chose not to engage in the "final solution" scenario proposal even though I realized that was the original intent of opening the discussion. Frankly, when a situation remains this constipated for so long, it makes sense to reach for the laxatives rather than make plans to remodel the bathroom. Ultimately, my only goal is to see an equitable solution as defined or agreed to by the oppressed people of Palestine. Without American pressure to include Palestinian voices, I fear justice of this sort will never come to pass.
Agreed on mutual humanization. What I think you underestimate is how the terror on civilians in the 90s and early 2000s mainly forms the U.S. consciousness of the situation. In general when I speak to groups, this is the entire framework through which people understand Palestine and Israel–terrorism. I also think you underestimate the extent to which the Nakba and after that the occupation has formed Palestinian consciousness. This makes it very difficult for those Palestinians, Americans, and Europeans, that sincerely do recognize the humanity of Israelis, but must reconcile with the more rejectionist approaches of the ruling parties in Israeli government . Even under labor Nakba-denial, settlement expansion, violent suppression of protest, arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, extrajudicial assassination have been the norm in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and house demolitions, bureaucratic oppression and settlement expansion have been the norm in East Jerusalem. There is systematic denial of the Palestinian narrative in a way that there simply is NOT systematic denial of the Israeli narrative.
Sorry this, should have said "his makes it very difficult for those Palestinians, Americans, and Europeans, that sincerely do recognize the humanity of Israelis AND Palestinians"
Additionally, Sammer's point wasn't about Gazans as victims, but about Palestinians steadfastly–and nonviolently–resisting in their daily lives. Not as victims, but as steadfast, nonviolent actors. Please don't reduce this to 'victimhood' and then dismiss it.
The 'detribalize' point is key. I have thought for some time now that all of the things which make the Arab-Israeli conflict an 'interesting problem', in terms of political theory, history, religion, etc. have little to do with the solution. I.e. It has to do with upholding international law which provides many explicit guidelines for dealing with human rights abuses, occupation, colonialism,etc. Exclusive religious claims to the land are immaterial to law, all of the strands of identity politics which are entangled in these discussions need to be left out. This will be a particularly bitter pill for the Israelis to swallow, but the sooner it happens, the sooner Israel will have a chance at being a healthy society.
Other important reasons for the emergence of HAMAS (and Islamic Jihad and other Islamist actors like the Islamic Movement inside Israel and smaller salafist organizations) were the worsening economic conditions in the territories, and the effect of Israel’s counterinsurgent measures taken first against the PLO and later against all other forms of Palestinian political, cultural, intellectual, and militant associations and activities. Zuhur, Sherifa, "Hamas and Israel: Conflicting Strategies of Group-Based Politics," Strategic Studies Institute, U.S. Army War College, December 2008. The Palestinians held an election in 2006. Who put the winners in jail?
Jeez, Witty, for the umpteenth time I join all those regulars on this blog who keep telling you first average Americans have to be made aware of the problem in the face of the MSM blackout. God, you're thick!
Towards allowing in more news never covered by the MSM, AlJeezra English has recently been offered in a few USA markets, e.g., Washington DC, Toledo Ohio, and in Vermont. Contact your cable company–it's easy via email, and ask them to offer this channel. I just did. I used the cable company's chat service. The chat guy I chatted with online forwarded my request. You pay for services like CSpan though your cable company bill; this would be a way for the cable company to gain more profit–make sure you tell them that many folks on your area would pay extra for AlJeezra because that channel offers news across the world never covered in the USA, as well as covering breaking news with a more neutral POV than, e.g., CNN or BBC. And shows more details on an on-going basis.
http://www.iwantaje.ca/ is the site if you're in the U.S., http://www.iwantaje.ca/ if you're in Canada.
Hear hear! http://www.endtheoccupation.org
"We need writers, journalists, documentarians, artists, and grassroots organizers to spread a message that the mainstream media won’t touch." Yes, but we need comments as well. Stereo types and disinformation need to be confronted everywhere they occur. The "special sort of racism" is the result of neocon propaganda demonizing the "enemy". Thus the need to humanize. We need a lot of big names, connections, media resources, etc, but for everybody else, commenting is an effective way of confronting the disinformation or humanizing the conflict. Fill in the gaps, confront the myths, or just offer a different perspective. You never know when the right words are going to flow from the tip of someones fingers and challenge the views of millions as they spread across the globe.
My organization Ethnic Ashkenazim Against Zionist Israel (also Boston-based) takes a completely different approach. We can never compete with ongoing Zionist efforts to dehumanize, demonize, and marginalize Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims. (Here is my response to a recent Boston Globe op-ed: Comments, Refutation: Leaders are Extremist.) Yet, it is fairly easy to demonstrate that Zionist subversion is damaging the American social political system so seriously that it has become a threat to every patriotic single-loyalty American: Patterns of Boston Jewish Power. Until Zionists stop trying to incite murderous hatred on Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims, we will flip every piece of racist Jewish Zionist hasbarah back at them.
RichardWitty, I would say that the presence of the Democratic Party (and its uglier twin the Republican Party) in Power in the US presents a greater challenge for billions of people on the planet, who have witnessed its long history of supporting wars of aggression and its support for terror in a more refined and more advanced form than any group in Palestine. From the time Martin Luther King Jr. declared that his government was "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today) 42 years ago until today with major escalation of wars of aggression being continued in Iraq and Afghanistan, little has changed. The world is still threatened by the dominant political parties in the US. Our challenge is to struggle against the institutional violence of the present US regime and call unequivocally for peace based on justice for all.
The left has been oriented to the constipation for 30 years that I've been following this. It has kept the dissenting community ALSO constipated. (The dissenting community has been frankly remodeling the bathroom RATHER than defecating for thirty years. Its called self-talk.) If removing the basis of obstacles is an element of dissent (I believe that it is), then to FAIL to clarify that the objectives of dissent are a just peace (mutual) and not some veiled strategem for dominance, is to continue the state of conflict. Mutual humanization is the order of the day.
Adopting international standards of human rights would be a bitter pill for ALL of the major Palestinian parties as well. Thats if you're committed to human rights.
So, if you ratify the statement "We hate you and will never accept your presence" in ANY way, then your urge for Israelis to humanize the Palestinians, may be selective, in fact tribal, rather than humane.
I don't think that most Americans are in the mood for human rights struggles abroad.The Palestinians deserve justice, but I believe that most Americans are turning inward as they see their nation radically changed by their rulers. Nothing seems certain in America at the moment. My guess is that most Americans are too worried about their own rights and crumbling system of laws to be worried about the Palestinians. When America is being settled by uninvited immigrants, I doubt that many people will worry about the illegal settling of Palestine. Israel and Israel's actions should be the issue. Many Americans dislike giving money to Israel, and more than a few are upset about AIPAC's many scandals. The USS Liberty is an issue for many Americans, as well. Unfortunately, we have a media that largely will not touch these issues due to ethnic loyalty, pressure and influence. These are the issues that must be confronted head-on, since these are the issues that are strangling Americans as well as Palestinians.
I've been watching their use of "pictures" (photos) to get their point over for quite some time now. ;)
Actually, the Americans are in no mood to champion the rights of a group of suicide bombers and baby murders. To Americans, the typical Palestinian is a hate mongering asshole.
I made no urge for Israelis to humanize Palestinians, though this would be something I certainly support. I wrote exclusively about the need for the humanization of Palestinians in American eyes. My belief is that American citizens have essentially abdicated their moral imperative to a political class that acts purely out of self-interest. Real change will come when people demand better. People will demand better when they understand the true nature of Palestinian suffering and resistance. I essentially agree with your reply above re mutual humanization. But it's also essential to consider the power dynamic of the oppressor/oppressed relationship. Humanization of the oppressed helps bring about peace… humanization of the oppressor helps sustain peace.
Ismail, since 911, the view of Palestinians as terrorists has solidified. Prior to that, I don't think most Americans really thought about Palestinians in anything more than a superficial way. If Israelis and Palestinians were both held to the light, I seriously doubt that many people anywhere would side with the Israelis. For that reason alone, I believe that Israeli actions should be the focus. I just happen to believe that Israeli actions against Americans, and the burdens that are placed on us in oder to support Israel, should be the focus, instead of the plight of Palestinians. It's a tactical move aimed at an inward looking people. In order to expose Israel, we have to expose many who call themselves Americans. I don't think there will be progress in Palestine until there is progress in America.
Thanks Nth. I'm not at all suggesting that the political questions be avoided, but they certainly need to be supplemented with a little bit (or a big bit ) of humanity. The most well thought out political argument in defense of non-persons is simply not as compelling as a weak political argument in defense of human beings.
Excellent article. Not only do the Zionists have far more clout with the media, they are far more skilled at using it. The Palestinians need camcorders more than Kalashnikovs. Film everything, the beatings, the land confiscations, the bombings, the humiliations at checkpoints and crossings, the colonists terrorizing not only the Palestinians but also Israeli Jewish activists, everything. And then pressure the US media to show it on the network news.
Ismail is a hate-mongering asshole, just like all Zio-fascists. Got a problem with that, Ismail? Oh, you do? Then shove, dickhead.
Racist Witty continues to cling to his chauvinist ideas of Jewish ethical superiority over the native population. Guess what! I have been involved in Jewish studies for over 40 years, and I have never found evidence of Jewish commitment to the democratic or human rights of non-Jews — in fact, exactly the opposite, and the State of Israel represents a great historical step backward for Jews in comparison with past Jewish behavior.
If you emphasize mutual humanization, then we are allies. Towards what end remains an IMPORTANT question. I've been involved with political efforts that seemed benign to me, later to discover that they were a front for an agenda that was less benign. I ALWAYS ask what people are attempting to achieve. I personally think it is a fraud not to.
In a nutshell, to appeal to Americans, it will take conveying CONFIDENCE that the goal and means will not harm Israeli civilians, or expose Israeli civilians to risk of terror. The terror was committed enough times, by enough parties, to brand the Arab peoples, certainly the militant Palestinian resistance, as blood-thirsty. Clearly, that is an inaccurate generalization when applied to civilians. To get to confidence then, takes a great real change, and a great deal of communication work conveying the great change. In no case should civilians be put in harm's way. This is NOT South Africa in which one-person one-vote is an obvious solution. This is a case of a 50/50 population in which the difference in status is between a government in which Jews are denied self-government (single state or unlimited right of return to 1948, or affirmed self-government). They will fight wars about this, NOT bow to international pressure. They will bow to international pressure IF the result is green line boundaries (with Jewish portions of the old city as part of Israel), and in which Jews residing in/citizens Palestine have equal civil rights, and Palestinians residing in/citizens Israel have equal civil rights. The question of goal is important. The set of individuals that would prefer a confident peace to expansion is in the 90/10 range. The 10 will be a pain in the ass, but they will yeild eventually, especially if they realize that they can theoretically reside in the West Bank, just not have sovereignty or majority over it.
Yes to mutual humanization, but since the overwhelming USA MSM is to humanize the Jews and dehumanize the Palestinians, and ditto our AIPAC whore congress, we need to ask, what is Witty trying to achieve since his narrative always support the status quo with the given heavy imbalance of power on the predatory side.
I don't think most Americans care about Israelis at all. And if an accurate picture of Israel, Israel's supporters/protectors within the the U.S., the corruption support of Israel causes to our system, and Israel's many burdens placed on America were painted, there would be no support of Israel, forced or otherwise. If constant sympathetic coverage of every loud noise in Israel hasn't made Americans by the claim that "we are all Israelis now," nothing will.
Nothing Herr Witty has said on this blog over the last 2 years would make anyone believe he is a humanist–no matter what he says, Zionism is more like Nazism than Humanism. If you don't use international standards of human rights as your standard, what are you? This is especially unforgivable with Witty as he surely supports the ex post facto Nurenberg Trials and their outcome. What? We can purse teen-age German concentration guards for 60 years, but we can't criticize Israeli state actions?
Todd, you address Ismail as if he is an American Firster or a world humanist. He is a racist Jew. Wake up! His conviction is that Goys are put upon the earth to serve Jews. His God told him so. He is a product of his upbringing. The last thing he is, is an a person with USA values. The USA people are just born to serve him and his chosen tribe.
I agree.
Pals need camcorders more than Kalahsikov guns. The Pals need to show the good goy Americans what the real narrative is. The average American will respond empathetically.
Zionism is more like Nazism than Humanism Zionism would be more like a beautiful, respectable Jewish humanism than Nazism… if it weren't for all those damn Palestinians in the way. But the fact that they are in the way makes the analogy comparing an artificially-created Zionist Israel to the Nazi Lebensraum all the more rational. It's wonderful to dream on and to strive for the rising up and success of a once-dejected and once-persecuted people, but when it's done so at the expense of another people, any "humanism" in that movement is completely eradicated. This is what Richard fails to, or refuses to acknowledge.
Americans rationally regard terror as inhumane and that it results in disqualification of groups like Hamas to be considered political participants unless change in character is confident.
Expose Israel and its fifth column for what they are, and I seriously doubt that many Americans will care about a pizza parlor or a bus. The ironic thing is that the group of Americans that the Zios think they have in the bag is shrinking demographically, and will be in the minority before too long.
I was fortunate to travel with Sammer and Philip to Gaza (and with Women of a Certain Age to the West Bank in 2004) .I appreciate and admire both Sammer and Philip for what they are doing. We would benefit from having more people like them. I agree with Sammer's approach. I am not holed up in an ivory tower, involved in lofty intellectual discussions and in no way would I be considered for a role in formulating proposals or decision making when it comes to a solution to the conflict between Israel and Palestine. Further more, I am not Jewish or Palestinian. What I am is an atypical activist for Palestinian Rights. It serves me well when approaching and dealing with the powers that be, the people on Main Street, in fact, with just about anyone who will give me a bit of their time and a small interest in listening. I don't approach people with strong opinions. I also don't shoot myself in the foot. When I speak it's about the day to day difficulties and humiliations the Palestinians face. "Simple" things like a wall running through the middle of their town, the only access to the other side is a gate a mile away and it doesn't keep specific hours for opening. And I don't necessarily even mention who's doing the inflicting. Someone always identifies Israel and brings them into the discussion. Next I personalize, Suppose a wall were built down the middle of Main Street. separating shops, restaurants, offices. What would you do? Especially since you'd have to go to Main Street and 313 to cross at the gate, if it's open. My audience, be it one or fifty, is off and running with hardships this would cause them and then they switch to the hardships this must cause the Palestinians and Israel's role in the injustice. It only takes a few of these examples, for "lightbulbs" to go on and understanding of the "Palestinian side if the story" to begin. Next come question: how can Israel get away with this? why don't we hear about this in the press? What can we do about this? Most Americans don't know or care about a one or two state solution to the Israel/Palestine Conflict. Sorry, but that's reality! They probably can't find Israel and Palestine on a map, but that's OK, it's "not important." They have supported Israel in the past. However they sat in their living rooms for 23 days watching Israel all but destroy Gaza. Day after day they watched and at some point many of them said hey, wait a minute, this has gone too far, what the hell is Israel out to prove? It's a good question, especially since Israel is the 4th largest military power in the world. Now, add in their nuclear weapons What military does Gaza have, scratch the army, navy, air force and it stands to reason they have no airplanes or boats. Those 23 days of inflicting hell on Gaza will cost Israel dearly. The tides are changing. My Congressman's office shared they are getting many, many calls about "the issue" and the support is not for Israel. "This is a significant change." Thank goodness! I will do everything I can to further this change. My approach may be simplistic, but it works. Don't ignore or underestimate it!
Bomb the settlements!
How about YES, rather than "Yes but". And you accuse me of obfuscating.
Actually, he is a human being with a perspective that differs from your own.
"its fifth column". What do you expect to happen, LIndbergh to resurrect? 1000 attacks on school buses, hotels, pizza parlor's, MAKES an impression, as it should.
The same confused knot has existed since the terror began. You are right to oppose injustice, but you are opportunistically naive to think that "not knowing what to suggest" is sufficient. Keep bearing your witness. The world needs to see that there is a mess. Just don't be gullible about how you interpret the mess, nor how to untie it. The Gazan civilians have for a long time been caught in the middle of larger fights than civilian ones. And, that is a tragedy. There are TWO dancers, and a civil majority that doesn't want to be in the dance. But, the two INSIST that civilians get caught up in it. And, even as your sympathies are with the powerless, Hamas and others NEED the conflict to continue, NEED the victimization to continue, and historically do everything they can to make sure that resolution does not occur.
"The presence of Hamas in power creates a dilemma for those Israelis, Americans, Europeans, that sincerely do recognize the humanity of Palestinians, but must then reconcile with the more rejectionist approaches by Hamas and other even just verbal militants." Why do you persist with this canard Richard? You know it's false. As it stands now, it is Israel that has taken the rejectionist position. Hamas have endorsed a 2 state settlement and have stated that they woudl not reject the Arab peace proposal. The Netenyahu government clearly opposes these and Israel has rejected the Arab peace initiative since it was created 6 years ago.
I'm sorry but while the Zionism of Hertzl might be some romantic ideology, in reality, it has been racist and violent from the outset. For half a century before Israel was created, Zionists were already plotting to drive out the Arabs and take the land by force, as well as drive out the British occupation.
"he is a human being with a perspective that differs from your own." So was Hitler.
"1000 attacks on school buses, hotels, pizza parlor's, MAKES an impression, as it should." Talk about hyperbole. There probably aren't that many school buses, hotels, pizza parlor's is Israel. If there had been 1000 attacks on school buses, hotels, pizza parlor's, you might have a point. Mind you, Israel can probably lay claim to carnage of that magnitude, but then again, the paradox has always been that destroying buses, hotels, pizza parlors using an F-16 is somehow noble, while doing so by suicide attack is repugnant.
Hamas and others NEED the conflict to continue, NEED the victimization to continue, and historically do everything they can to make sure that resolution does not occur. I'll fill in the blanks for you, since you are too dishonest with yourself to do so. By "others", you must mean Israel, for the State of Israel needs the conflict to continue and needs the world to see it as a victim of terrorism for its war on the Palestinians to continue. It needs this so that a resolution does not occur, and it can continue the status quo of occupation, ethnic cleansing, and expansion. For now, the method of expansion has shifted from direct territorial acquisition through war with foreign powers a la the 1948 war and 1967 (and 1973 if you include the Golan, and even 1982 if you count the fact that they attempted to steal the entire Litani River and everything south of it, and still occupy the Shebaa Farms and all of Ghajar, both illegally), to a slower, more underhanded form of acquisition through house demolitions and settlement expansion in the occupied territories. However, the end result is the same. When you stop lying to yourself, Richard, you'll see the reality that the rest of us are privy to.
Your not dealing the with dance element of it. TWO parties dancing. Likud (and allies to the right) and Hamas (and allies). Obama is.
"The same confused knot has existed since the terror began. " The reason your arguments fail so miserably Richard, is that you cherry pick an arbitrary point in history which fits your narrative. The terror did not begin in the 90's, but even before Israel was created. As for who needs the conflict to continue, this is best summed up by a quote from a so called dove, Tzipi Livni, who said that an extended ceasefire was not in Israel's strategic interests. What greater admission can there be that Israels' leadership wants the conflict to continue?
It's true that Likud and Hamas play off of each other's extreme politics, and that Likud had a hand in the foundation of Hamas — that fact has been brought to light many times before. However, Likud isn't the only political party in Israel with expansionist tendencies. In fact, all the wars I mentioned above, with exception of 1978 invasion of Lebanon (I didn't mean the 1982 invasion, sorry there have been just so many I get confused sometimes), were fought under Labour governments or under parties that would eventually merge with Labour, and the resulting territorial expansions were made under Labour governments as well. In addition, Likud and Labour both have a history of settlement expansion. It is indeed "two parties" "dancing" (though I am loathe to use such a term), but the song will remain the same even with a changing of the guard in Israel, and it won't end with Gaza. That's the point here.
"A fifth column is a group of people who clandestinely undermine a larger group, such as a nation, from within, to the aid of an external enemy." That pretty much describes Israel's supporters in the United States. Israel isn't a declared enemy, but I wouldn't call Israel an ally or a neutral, either. And Shingo is right, Israel probably doesn't have 1000 busses or pizza parlors, individually or combined. I also doubt that the number of suicide bombings comes anywhere near 1000.
It takes two parties for a rape or murder, also. What's your point?
"Actually, the Americans are in no mood to champion the rights of a group of suicide bombers and baby murders." True, which is why support for Israel is dropping like a stone even among Evangelical Christians.
Obvious, I doubt that Ismail is even an American. If he is, he is an Israel-onlier. How should I respond to him? Should I have hurled insults at him?
You think that Ismael is organizing the military occupation of all of Europe, and killing all homosexuals, Jews, communists, Gypsies, while enforcing rigid prohibitions from any dissent? The value of a perspective different from your own, is that it can sober you up, shock you into reality rather than self-talk.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisr...
I made my point, that Hamas acts to stop ALL efforts of reconciliation and has since the first Madrid talks that led to Oslo. To only comment on Israeli policies, is to OMIT the real nature of the issue, that its fanatics' agendas (both expansionist and rejectionist) that causes civilian suffering. They each NEED the "revolutionary" chaotic status for their validity.
YES to constantly making public the humanity of the Palestinians on a par with the standard MSM 's making public the humanity of the Israelis. Talk about obfuscating. Nobody matches you in obfuscation. That's why so many have accused you of it over the last few years here.
"http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisr…" What's his supposed to prove? There is no evidence to support your claim of 1000 attacks. In fact, Israel killd more people during the Gaza siege than the total death in Israel over 10 years due to terorrism. Like I said, Israel doesn't have school buses, hotels, pizza parlors to blow up.
Looking at the year of the most deaths, 2002, ( which had only about 150 attacks), this list regards all shootings, stabbings, and kidnaps as terrorist attacks, even when instigated by Israel. Based on that standard, Israel commits at least a hundred terrorist attacks every year. In fact, Isaeli terrorits commited more attacks betwene January and April of 1948 alone (not including attacks on Military targets) or attacks on the British.
"In a nutshell, to appeal to Americans, it will take conveying CONFIDENCE that the goal and means will not harm Israeli civilians, or expose Israeli civilians to risk of terror. " Huh? Most Americans I've met and grew to know in my long life could care less about Israelis. The only exceptions have been American Jews, who have always been rabid Israel supporters. I've lived in quite a few states, and in both rural, suburban, and city areas. "This is NOT South Africa in which one-person one-vote is an obvious solution." It was not obvious to many white South Africans, who were few in number; they were scared shi*less they'd be robbed, raped, and killed–which has turned out to be true in the current rape capital country of the world and with its institutionalized farm takeovers, etc. World press and economic sanctions, boycott, divestments, etc caused the apartheid regime's collapse–that's why it's important to do the same with Israel. International pressure plus stopping USA aid and UN veto support is the combo that will force Israel to become a civilized nation.
And who crashed the party in the first place? And who now occupies the room? Why aren't you rooting for the underdog, Witty? We need a new Mighty Mouse, and a new Superman. He won't be wearing a beanie.
Seeingformyself, thank you for your efforts and great extended comment! My own experience mirrors yours and my thinking about the situation too.
No need. Just cut off all aid, and cut off our UN Sec Council vetoes also allowing the rogue state to do whatever it wants.
I'm rooting for the civilians, in opposition to the opportunistic fanatics. Why are you rooting for revolutionary change rather than mutual acceptance and fair negotiated reconciliation?
"They each NEED the "revolutionary" chaotic status for their validity." I also heard the claim in Israel that Israelis need external enemies in order to prevent a civil war among Jews. The claim was half serious, but there is truth to it. Agree with Hamas or not, no Palestinian is obliged to accept any offer that has ever been offered by Israel. If Palestinians wish to fight until Israelis are pushed into the sea, that's up to those who wish to do so. As it is, Israelis have always been the interlopers and aggreessors, and have no serious or just plan for peace.
Sure, no one's obliged to enter into a compromise. But, they are responsible for the consequences caused to civilians that they propose to govern, as a result of their decisions and policies. Only those over 61 years old were alive in 1948. Are individuals that have lived their whole life in a locale interlopers? I hope not, otherwise the VERY VAST majority of Americans are homeless and have no basis of rights where they live. Democracy is a PRESENT phenomena.
If 61 years negates a claim, 2000 years ceratinly does the same. By that logic, I shouldn't have to hear another word of the damn holocaust. You know very well that Israel/Zionism has been the aggressor since the beginning of the conflict i Palestine. Without Zonism, there would be no conflict. If Israel and its supporters get what they deserve, who would care? Who makes excuses for America's treatment of its natives? I love how Zionists always turn the table on their host and benefactor when pressed–it let's us know where their loyalties really lie. And I seriously doubt that your ancestors came to America for the opportunity to live in wigwams, anyway. America's past doesn't obligate me to support Israel's HORRIFIC crimes. You can support what you wish, but don't lecture the rest of us on morality when you support something as rotten as the state of Israel for no other reason than tribal loyalty.
I capture complexity. There is NO clear answer to this. To assert that a particular radical position is "obvious" is to lie.
But Todd, you are an immoral asshole. What's to lecture?
Thank you for signing the Palestinian death warrant.
Ismail, when you get what you deserve, who will care?
I was asserting that the USA MSM constant picture to the public is one-sided on the I-P conflict. That's obvious to anyone but you. You never capture this fact in anything you say. You avoid complexity, mirroring the MSM propaganda organs.
Not at all. We need to cut off all aid so the spoiled bully brat has a chance to grow into a responsible adult. That's the only way to rescind the current USA-Israel death warrant issued to the Palestinians.
Comments on this entry are closed.