Comments on: video crackdown (in Tehran yes, and in Israel too) http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html The War of Ideas in the Middle East Mon, 28 May 2012 15:50:29 +0000 hourly 1 By: Thom http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html/comment-page-1#comment-101185 Thom Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:41:01 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html#comment-101185 Shalit is still in Gaza, he has not been transferred to Egypt. There was supposedly a deal being made that would have included his transfer to Egypt, but the deal fell through. Israel wants the terrorists with blood on their hands that it would release as part of the deal to be expelled to other Arab countries. Hamas wants them in Gaza and the West Bank so they can kill more Israelis. Fortunately, the deal fell through as a result. I think the Israelis are insane to trade terrorists for a kidnapped soldier. That just encourages the Palestinians to take more hostages. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1100116.html "Last week, Mubarak announced that Shalit was in good condition and expressed hope he would be released soon. However, he gave no details on where he got his information. A Hamas official later dismissed Mubarak's comments as 'wishful thinking'. " Shalit is still in Gaza, he has not been transferred to Egypt. There was supposedly a deal being made that would have included his transfer to Egypt, but the deal fell through. Israel wants the terrorists with blood on their hands that it would release as part of the deal to be expelled to other Arab countries. Hamas wants them in Gaza and the West Bank so they can kill more Israelis. Fortunately, the deal fell through as a result.

I think the Israelis are insane to trade terrorists for a kidnapped soldier. That just encourages the Palestinians to take more hostages.

link to haaretz.com

“Last week, Mubarak announced that Shalit was in good condition and expressed hope he would be released soon. However, he gave no details on where he got his information.

A Hamas official later dismissed Mubarak’s comments as ‘wishful thinking’. “

]]> By: Thom http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html/comment-page-1#comment-101181 Thom Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:24:10 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html#comment-101181 The naval blockade doesn't let anything through, it has to pass through Israel then go to the Palestinians over land. I was referring to the blockade in general, including the blockade on land. Since there is no widespread starvation in Gaza, the Israelis are obviously letting food through. BTW, you really should think about the implications of your analogies. You have just confessed that you are in fact anti-Semitic. In WWII we were anti-fascist. If Mussolini had accused us of that, his accusation would have been correct. So you are saying that you are anti-Semitic, but it is OK, because Jews are evil. Thank you for clarifying your position. The naval blockade doesn’t let anything through, it has to pass through Israel then go to the Palestinians over land. I was referring to the blockade in general, including the blockade on land.

Since there is no widespread starvation in Gaza, the Israelis are obviously letting food through.

BTW, you really should think about the implications of your analogies. You have just confessed that you are in fact anti-Semitic. In WWII we were anti-fascist. If Mussolini had accused us of that, his accusation would have been correct. So you are saying that you are anti-Semitic, but it is OK, because Jews are evil. Thank you for clarifying your position.

]]> By: Thom http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html/comment-page-1#comment-101173 Thom Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:11:32 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html#comment-101173 Arab and Christian citizens of Israel have equality now (except that they are not conscripted into the IDF, but can join voluntarily). There are no Apartheid practices. Israel doesn't have "pass laws". There is a system of travel permits in the West Bank, but those are not Israeli citizens, they are members of a hostile population that is still at war with Israel. You are pretending to be some person considering both sides, but your terminology gives you away. It is anti-Israel propaganda 101. What Israel is doing isn't immoral, so make a false analogy to the Nazis and Apartheid then say "Nazis are bad therefore Israel is bad", and hope that people don't notice that your analogies are ludicrous by any objective standard. The current system has reduced terrorist attacks from the West Bank by 90%. Since the Palestinians are at war with Israel, the question of whether such a system would be fair if there were peace is kind of moot. If there were peace, there would be no need for the travel permit system in the West Bank. To answer your question, if the Palestinians were actually willing to make a real peace, not a hudna (time out while we build up our ability to attack you). Then I would be willing to give them Gaza and the West Bank (trading land elsewhere in Israel for the land the Israeli adjacent settlements is on and evacuating the rest). As part of that land swap, I'd let the populations of majority Arab areas in Israel that are near the West Bank or Gaza vote on whether the area could be included in the swap. If the Israeli Arabs turned it down, then mostly empty land. I'd give them access to the Dome of the Rock, but no ownership of any part of Jerusalem. No right of "return" to Israel. Of course this is all theoretical since I don't get to make these choices. Also, it is all moot since the Palestinians will never make a peace agreement that gives up their right of return or where they agree to permanently give up on taking all of Israel. Arab and Christian citizens of Israel have equality now (except that they are not conscripted into the IDF, but can join voluntarily). There are no Apartheid practices. Israel doesn’t have “pass laws”. There is a system of travel permits in the West Bank, but those are not Israeli citizens, they are members of a hostile population that is still at war with Israel. You are pretending to be some person considering both sides, but your terminology gives you away. It is anti-Israel propaganda 101. What Israel is doing isn’t immoral, so make a false analogy to the Nazis and Apartheid then say “Nazis are bad therefore Israel is bad”, and hope that people don’t notice that your analogies are ludicrous by any objective standard.

The current system has reduced terrorist attacks from the West Bank by 90%. Since the Palestinians are at war with Israel, the question of whether such a system would be fair if there were peace is kind of moot. If there were peace, there would be no need for the travel permit system in the West Bank.

To answer your question, if the Palestinians were actually willing to make a real peace, not a hudna (time out while we build up our ability to attack you). Then I would be willing to give them Gaza and the West Bank (trading land elsewhere in Israel for the land the Israeli adjacent settlements is on and evacuating the rest). As part of that land swap, I’d let the populations of majority Arab areas in Israel that are near the West Bank or Gaza vote on whether the area could be included in the swap. If the Israeli Arabs turned it down, then mostly empty land.

I’d give them access to the Dome of the Rock, but no ownership of any part of Jerusalem. No right of “return” to Israel.

Of course this is all theoretical since I don’t get to make these choices. Also, it is all moot since the Palestinians will never make a peace agreement that gives up their right of return or where they agree to permanently give up on taking all of Israel.

]]> By: MRW http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html/comment-page-1#comment-101157 MRW Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:32:18 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html#comment-101157 <i>Have you made any phone calls to any embassies about the conditions of illegal imprisonment of Gilad Shalit?</i> Shalit is in Egypt. Dont you read the news? Ever? Have you made any phone calls to any embassies about the conditions of illegal imprisonment of Gilad Shalit?

Shalit is in Egypt. Dont you read the news? Ever?

]]> By: Thom http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html/comment-page-1#comment-101156 Thom Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:24:29 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html#comment-101156 Just to be clear, the 99.9% referred to Israel acting with decency and benevolence 99.9% of the time. I see the Arabs as human 100% of the time. The 99.9% was a bit facetious though. Benevolence is a bit much to expect toward an enemy, though Israel does act with benevolence much of the time. Seriously though, the 99.9% would be that Israel acts appropriately 99.9% of the time. The other 0.1% involves vandalism or other actions by rogue Israelis. Just to be clear, the 99.9% referred to Israel acting with decency and benevolence 99.9% of the time. I see the Arabs as human 100% of the time.

The 99.9% was a bit facetious though. Benevolence is a bit much to expect toward an enemy, though Israel does act with benevolence much of the time. Seriously though, the 99.9% would be that Israel acts appropriately 99.9% of the time. The other 0.1% involves vandalism or other actions by rogue Israelis.

]]> By: MRW http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html/comment-page-1#comment-101154 MRW Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:10:07 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html#comment-101154 <i>The fact that you compare the mild blockade (that lets food, fuel, and medicine through) to the Nazis</i> <b> mild blockade (that lets food, fuel, and medicine through) ? ? ?</b> The blockade DOES NOT ALLOW food, fuel, or medicine through. That is why George Galloway is doing a convoy from Egypt as I write to provide these basics to the occupied people of Gaza. Anyone can google for this basic fight. As for the anti-semitic canard. No one gives a shit anymore if accused of this. It's like having WWII Mussolini accuse us of being anti-fascist. The fact that you compare the mild blockade (that lets food, fuel, and medicine through) to the Nazis

mild blockade (that lets food, fuel, and medicine through) ? ? ? The blockade DOES NOT ALLOW food, fuel, or medicine through. That is why George Galloway is doing a convoy from Egypt as I write to provide these basics to the occupied people of Gaza. Anyone can google for this basic fight.

As for the anti-semitic canard. No one gives a shit anymore if accused of this. It’s like having WWII Mussolini accuse us of being anti-fascist.

]]> By: Thom http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html/comment-page-1#comment-101147 Thom Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:01:52 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html#comment-101147 99.9% of the time. I see the Arabs as human, unlike your characterization of Israelis as various types of animals. However, I see a significant portion (by no means all) of the Palestinian population as barbarians. They are not being slaughtered. To the extent they are being dispossessed, they have brought that on themselves. Einstein was not anti-Israel. I don't know about Mandella thinks Israel should withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights, but he supports Israel's right to exist. Tutu, I don't know about his position. Noam Chomski is anti-America, anti-Semitic, anti-Western Civilization. Sara Roy has built her career on attacking Israel and excusing Hamas for their terrorism, not exactly a surprise there. Never heard of Primo Levi. His wikipedia entry doesn't mention anything about his views on Israel. He died 22 years ago. 99.9% of the time. I see the Arabs as human, unlike your characterization of Israelis as various types of animals. However, I see a significant portion (by no means all) of the Palestinian population as barbarians.

They are not being slaughtered. To the extent they are being dispossessed, they have brought that on themselves.

Einstein was not anti-Israel. I don’t know about Mandella thinks Israel should withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights, but he supports Israel’s right to exist. Tutu, I don’t know about his position. Noam Chomski is anti-America, anti-Semitic, anti-Western Civilization. Sara Roy has built her career on attacking Israel and excusing Hamas for their terrorism, not exactly a surprise there.

Never heard of Primo Levi. His wikipedia entry doesn’t mention anything about his views on Israel. He died 22 years ago.

]]> By: MRW http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html/comment-page-1#comment-101146 MRW Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:01:42 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html#comment-101146 Hamas moved Gilad Shalit to Egypt three weeks ago after Obama's Cairo speech. The Egyptians reported that Shalit is in extremely good health. Hamas moved Gilad Shalit to Egypt three weeks ago after Obama’s Cairo speech. The Egyptians reported that Shalit is in extremely good health.

]]> By: Adam Flude http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html/comment-page-1#comment-99697 Adam Flude Sun, 19 Jul 2009 22:52:30 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html#comment-99697 Hi Jake I think it's so important to keep talking, so long as people are talking, they can't be killing each other! - intelligent respectful conversation is good, but non-violent actions for peace and justice are even better. One thing is for sure, we can't rely on our governments to sort out the world's problems - I think most governments are imperialist in nature. I like the idea of talking and of both "sides" keeping an open intelligent mind. Sadly the demagoguery of our governments often brainwashes us from such discourse. I was so moved to see the wonderful Israeli (well maybe Israeli/Arab, I think Simone Bitton is half Arab half Israeli) film "Wall" and to listen to people like Israeli Muli Peleg from Matan who moved there with his wife and young children just before the wall was built. He wanted to be neighbourly with his Palestinian brothers and sisters (in humanity if not culture!) from the neighbouring village of Habla. But tragically the Israeli government don't appear to approve of or even allow such natural human desires to be realised. (I guess it's security.... so, so sad) We could all talk semantics ad infinitum; who fired the first shot, who broke the ceasefire first, who killed more people etc. But let me ask you as someone who understandably loves his country and his culture and I imagine his religion and also is like most of us a good humane inteligent person: IF the Palestinian people COULD (I know this is never going to be 100% possible on either side of ANY conflict) guarantee Israelis would be free from attack or any violent actions whatsoever, what would you personally be willing to offer them to ensure a lasting peace and a good life for everyone in the shared land (which I believe your people think is their divine right to live in again because of something ("unsubstantiated" to use your own turn of phrase!) that God may or may not have said to Moses thousands of years ago. Hope you aren't too sensitive about that, but I think I'm being reasonable here. Would you be willing to offer Arabs and Christians living or working in Israel complete equality and freedom from your existing "pass laws" and other existing Apartheid practises? Or do you think this current system is fair? Shalom and Salaam to everyone in the Middle East. P.S. I think this does seem to be a good website/forum, despite what your reservations. If you really think some of what you said has been censored, why don't you challenge them over it and post their reply on here, along with the posts you think may have been censored. I feel they may have just been lost in the electronic process - I loose loads of stuff in that way! We all want peace: “When the rich make war it's the poor that die” (Jean-Paul Sartre) .... it's also the poor who pay for these wars - I find it ironic that the world spends several billion pounds every year fuelling this conflict and sanctimoniously spends a similar amount clearing up the mess (only they don't do a very good job of the latter do they!) Just think what could be acheived if ALL the money (and also a lot of love and compassion) went towards positive stuff rather than one half cancelling out the other. Hi Jake I think it's so important to keep talking, so long as people are talking, they can't be killing each other! – intelligent respectful conversation is good, but non-violent actions for peace and justice are even better. One thing is for sure, we can't rely on our governments to sort out the world's problems – I think most governments are imperialist in nature. I like the idea of talking and of both "sides" keeping an open intelligent mind. Sadly the demagoguery of our governments often brainwashes us from such discourse. I was so moved to see the wonderful Israeli (well maybe Israeli/Arab, I think Simone Bitton is half Arab half Israeli) film "Wall" and to listen to people like Israeli Muli Peleg from Matan who moved there with his wife and young children just before the wall was built. He wanted to be neighbourly with his Palestinian brothers and sisters (in humanity if not culture!) from the neighbouring village of Habla. But tragically the Israeli government don't appear to approve of or even allow such natural human desires to be realised. (I guess it's security…. so, so sad) We could all talk semantics ad infinitum; who fired the first shot, who broke the ceasefire first, who killed more people etc. But let me ask you as someone who understandably loves his country and his culture and I imagine his religion and also is like most of us a good humane inteligent person: IF the Palestinian people COULD (I know this is never going to be 100% possible on either side of ANY conflict) guarantee Israelis would be free from attack or any violent actions whatsoever, what would you personally be willing to offer them to ensure a lasting peace and a good life for everyone in the shared land (which I believe your people think is their divine right to live in again because of something ("unsubstantiated" to use your own turn of phrase!) that God may or may not have said to Moses thousands of years ago. Hope you aren't too sensitive about that, but I think I'm being reasonable here. Would you be willing to offer Arabs and Christians living or working in Israel complete equality and freedom from your existing "pass laws" and other existing Apartheid practises? Or do you think this current system is fair? Shalom and Salaam to everyone in the Middle East. P.S. I think this does seem to be a good website/forum, despite what your reservations. If you really think some of what you said has been censored, why don't you challenge them over it and post their reply on here, along with the posts you think may have been censored. I feel they may have just been lost in the electronic process – I loose loads of stuff in that way! We all want peace: “When the rich make war it's the poor that die” (Jean-Paul Sartre) …. it's also the poor who pay for these wars – I find it ironic that the world spends several billion pounds every year fuelling this conflict and sanctimoniously spends a similar amount clearing up the mess (only they don't do a very good job of the latter do they!) Just think what could be acheived if ALL the money (and also a lot of love and compassion) went towards positive stuff rather than one half cancelling out the other.

]]> By: Jake in Jerusalem http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html/comment-page-1#comment-99686 Jake in Jerusalem Sun, 19 Jul 2009 17:44:31 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/adam-shapiro-at-huffington-postthose-of-us-with-video-cameras-bore-the-brunt-of-the-over-zealous-navy-forces-we-were-bea.html#comment-99686 Several of my postings to MondoLies have disappeared or not been published. MondoLies clearly does not seek honest discourse on the topics close to their hearts, namely the dispossession of Jews from Israel, increasing hatred toward Jews and, of course, Jews at MondoLies making money out of this Jew-Hatred. MondoLies can only exist in it's own fantasy world where truth is denied, facts are ignored and reality is imagined. MondoLies is MondoBigotry. Several of my postings to MondoLies have disappeared or not been published. MondoLies clearly does not seek honest discourse on the topics close to their hearts, namely the dispossession of Jews from Israel, increasing hatred toward Jews and, of course, Jews at MondoLies making money out of this Jew-Hatred. MondoLies can only exist in it's own fantasy world where truth is denied, facts are ignored and reality is imagined. MondoLies is MondoBigotry.

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