http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html The War of Ideas in the Middle East Tue, 14 Feb 2012 12:02:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html/comment-page-2#comment-94553 shafiq Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:31:49 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html#comment-94553 Are you really that stupid? If hisbollah is illegal under lebanese law, then why is it allowed to take part in elections? And why does it hold contacts with various arab and european governments including the UK Are you really that stupid? If hisbollah is illegal under lebanese law, then why is it allowed to take part in elections? And why does it hold contacts with various arab and european governments including the UK

]]> http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html/comment-page-2#comment-94552 shafiq Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:28:11 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html#comment-94552 Are you really that stupid? If hisbollah is illegal under lebanese law, then why is it allowed to take part in elections? And why does it hold contacts with various arab and european governments including the UK Are you really that stupid? If hisbollah is illegal under lebanese law, then why is it allowed to take part in elections? And why does it hold contacts with various arab and european governments including the UK

]]> http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html/comment-page-2#comment-94551 Jake in Jerusalem Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:42:14 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html#comment-94551 It is interetsting that you ignored the Palestinean girl who tried to commit suicide by attacking Israeli soldiers a few days ago. She was only injured by the IDF soldiers. After treatment in an Israeli hospital, she explaindd that she watnted to die a Shahid to regain her Muslim Honor after being molested repeatedely over a long period by family members. You ignore the position of rape in Islamic society. Rape is an honorable thing in Arabic/Islamic society; being raped is shameful. Many Sheiks have made these pronouncements in many countries... YOu dont' like the facts, do you? It is interetsting that you ignored the Palestinean girl who tried to commit suicide by attacking Israeli soldiers a few days ago. She was only injured by the IDF soldiers. After treatment in an Israeli hospital, she explaindd that she watnted to die a Shahid to regain her Muslim Honor after being molested repeatedely over a long period by family members. You ignore the position of rape in Islamic society. Rape is an honorable thing in Arabic/Islamic society; being raped is shameful. Many Sheiks have made these pronouncements in many countries… YOu dont' like the facts, do you?

]]> http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html/comment-page-2#comment-94550 Jake in Jerusalem Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:38:49 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html#comment-94550 Hezbullah is a terrorist group BY LEBANESE LAW. It is ILLEGAL in Lebanon. That the Lebanese govt has been unable to enforce the law in it's own territory is a tribute to Iran and Syria trying to displace Lebanese national sovereignty. Armed Terrorist groups are similartly illegal in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Canada, USA, Britain, etc. You have a problem with that, al Shafiq? Hezbullah is a terrorist group BY LEBANESE LAW. It is ILLEGAL in Lebanon. That the Lebanese govt has been unable to enforce the law in it's own territory is a tribute to Iran and Syria trying to displace Lebanese national sovereignty. Armed Terrorist groups are similartly illegal in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Canada, USA, Britain, etc. You have a problem with that, al Shafiq?

]]> http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html/comment-page-2#comment-94524 Jake in Jerusalem Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:35:46 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html#comment-94524 Ha! You forget Entebbe, Osirak, and many, many more... Or perhaps you never knew? Do you learn everything here at MondoLies? That would explain a few things... Ha! You forget Entebbe, Osirak, and many, many more… Or perhaps you never knew? Do you learn everything here at MondoLies? That would explain a few things…

]]> http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html/comment-page-2#comment-94509 Jake in Jerusalem Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:34:10 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html#comment-94509 You have a problem with history. You also seem to have a problem with expressing yourself in words. Get help for your problems. You have a problem with history. You also seem to have a problem with expressing yourself in words. Get help for your problems.

]]> http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html/comment-page-2#comment-94597 Sin Nombre Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:23:29 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html#comment-94597 Well, in the first place as I said in general I don't think you ought to *grant* any special pass or double standard to any particular group due to their past legitimate claims. (With one huge problem being that just because I am a Slav doesn't mean that the Hitler's war on the Slavs hurt me at all and etc.) But I did say that it's only common sense to try to understand where a group is coming from to consider their past. And as to every group having some crime committed against it in the past, well I guess I'd say that degree matters as common sense dictates. For instance I'm sure that in *some* regions of the U.S. at *some* time WASPS were discriminated against (in the Deep South for instance). Don't make me weep for 'em. But look at the Native Americans, and then, comparatively speaking, the very recent decimation of the jews, in such numbers and proportions. Like I say, doesn't mean you agree to any double standard, but it does help one understand I think. As to American Left/liberalism having a special obligation to "clean up" the ME messes I guess I'd say I dunno. Seems to me a beyond fair chance that by trying they'd be doing more damage than has already been done. And it was after all Mr. Bush and his far-from Lefty/liberal friends who kinda threw the match into this present ME powder-keg, right? And it was Nixon who inaugurated the great shift in U.S. policy towards Israel from one of mere fair warmth to something much greater when he sent those C5-A's loaded with weapons to Israel and saved its bacon during the '73 war, and ramped up our DEFCON status to let the Russkies know we weren't going to let them backstop the arabs from failing, right? And from there I think most people would say that of the following Presidents the greatest friends Israel has had have been the *Republican* ones, not so much Carter and Clinton. (Especially when you consider Bush II.) Thus and again, I think our wisest course would be to just get out of it. Send humanitarian aid; offer our good offices if both parties want it to be an actual fair go-between. But beyond that have some humility that we don't know exactly where the finger of cosmic justice points, nor that whatever we do is really going to be in the best interest of whomever we think we are trying to help. Just like we believe in democracy because of its idea that the people know best what they want, where do we get off telling the Iraqis, or the Palestinians, or the Israelis or *anyone* what's best for them? Hell, we don't even know what's best for *us*, do we? Well, in the first place as I said in general I don't think you ought to *grant* any special pass or double standard to any particular group due to their past legitimate claims. (With one huge problem being that just because I am a Slav doesn't mean that the Hitler's war on the Slavs hurt me at all and etc.) But I did say that it's only common sense to try to understand where a group is coming from to consider their past. And as to every group having some crime committed against it in the past, well I guess I'd say that degree matters as common sense dictates. For instance I'm sure that in *some* regions of the U.S. at *some* time WASPS were discriminated against (in the Deep South for instance). Don't make me weep for 'em. But look at the Native Americans, and then, comparatively speaking, the very recent decimation of the jews, in such numbers and proportions. Like I say, doesn't mean you agree to any double standard, but it does help one understand I think. As to American Left/liberalism having a special obligation to "clean up" the ME messes I guess I'd say I dunno. Seems to me a beyond fair chance that by trying they'd be doing more damage than has already been done. And it was after all Mr. Bush and his far-from Lefty/liberal friends who kinda threw the match into this present ME powder-keg, right? And it was Nixon who inaugurated the great shift in U.S. policy towards Israel from one of mere fair warmth to something much greater when he sent those C5-A's loaded with weapons to Israel and saved its bacon during the '73 war, and ramped up our DEFCON status to let the Russkies know we weren't going to let them backstop the arabs from failing, right? And from there I think most people would say that of the following Presidents the greatest friends Israel has had have been the *Republican* ones, not so much Carter and Clinton. (Especially when you consider Bush II.) Thus and again, I think our wisest course would be to just get out of it. Send humanitarian aid; offer our good offices if both parties want it to be an actual fair go-between. But beyond that have some humility that we don't know exactly where the finger of cosmic justice points, nor that whatever we do is really going to be in the best interest of whomever we think we are trying to help. Just like we believe in democracy because of its idea that the people know best what they want, where do we get off telling the Iraqis, or the Palestinians, or the Israelis or *anyone* what's best for them? Hell, we don't even know what's best for *us*, do we?

]]> http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html/comment-page-2#comment-94500 lovelyisraelis Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:30:31 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html#comment-94500 Pearle is a left liberal? Wolfowitz is a left liberal? Feith is a left liberal? Eliot Abrahms is a left liberal? Daniel Pipes is a left liberal? Cynthia "Ratface" Ozick is a left liberal?? Henry Fucking Kissinger is a left-liberal??!? Pearle is a left liberal? Wolfowitz is a left liberal? Feith is a left liberal? Eliot Abrahms is a left liberal? Daniel Pipes is a left liberal? Cynthia "Ratface" Ozick is a left liberal?? Henry Fucking Kissinger is a left-liberal??!?

]]> http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html/comment-page-2#comment-94499 Ed Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:42:04 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html#comment-94499 @ Sin Nombre, 1) Every ethnic, racial and religious group has legitimate victim claims. Christians, for example could point to their mass murder in the Soviet Union and declare this entitles them to special sensitivities, treatment and rampages. 2) Diaspora political Judaism has always thrived most on the Left. And because its success in the US left-liberal establishment is what has for years been the primary facilitator of Zionist abuses, American left-liberalism has a special obligation to clean up the messes it has enabled by its ushering of political Judaism into the halls of American power and obsequiously pandering to its demands. This pandering was calculated to co-opt the resources of political Judaism on behalf of left-liberal power in America. In return, the Democrats let the Zionists rampage time and again. @ Sin Nombre, 1) Every ethnic, racial and religious group has legitimate victim claims. Christians, for example could point to their mass murder in the Soviet Union and declare this entitles them to special sensitivities, treatment and rampages. 2) Diaspora political Judaism has always thrived most on the Left. And because its success in the US left-liberal establishment is what has for years been the primary facilitator of Zionist abuses, American left-liberalism has a special obligation to clean up the messes it has enabled by its ushering of political Judaism into the halls of American power and obsequiously pandering to its demands. This pandering was calculated to co-opt the resources of political Judaism on behalf of left-liberal power in America. In return, the Democrats let the Zionists rampage time and again.

]]> http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html/comment-page-2#comment-94596 Sin Nombre Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:07:42 +0000 http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/daylight-grows-between-american-jewish-majority-and-the-mainstream-sliver-the-lobby.html#comment-94596 "I don't doubt that many Jews are drawn to leftist politics out of sincere belief. But it only makes sense to question those beliefs when many of the same people...." Well that's certainly a reasonable reaction, although it seems to me for many if not most they still *are* indeed sincere, but their reasoning (what others certainly will call "rationalization" of course) is that Israel and judaism present somewhat of a "special case" due to the historic oppression of the jews and then the Holocaust too obviously. In short, that Israel deserves somewhat of a pass on many things. Not to carry water for this argument, especially since I disagree with it, but it does have some logic to it given that what it essentially says is that "context matters," which it does. For instance, it would be a little blind to not view the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution as above-all being passed to prevent government from discriminating against African-Americans, right? And indeed maybe the same logic is used by those who seek to explain ("excuse"?) the Palestinians from, say, not getting their act together in Gaza or elsewise and running a decent, non-corrupt government, right? That is ... that context matters and that their society has been so shattered and oppressed that you can understand if still not approve of their dysfunctionalism, their toleration of corruption and terrorism and love of Saddam Hussein and etc. and so forth. I guess my view is that while context ought to matter in terms of our *understanding* of motivations, that ought not mean we tolerate the dual standards that those motivations would result in. And here especially while one can sympathize with the historical jewish experience it certainly wasn't the poor *Palestinians* who inflicted their historical torments upon them. Nevertheless for people coming out of the Holocaust I think we can have a little understanding of a bunker mentality; a feeling that "the world didn't give a shit about us then and wouldn't give any more about us in the future if we did give back Palestinian land and it was just used to attack us all over again," and etc., etc. And, as I've said before, in a way that's what the world is asking Israel to do, isn't it? Give back that land and then *trust* that the Palestinian people are not going to tolerate extremists amongst them to simply use it to attack Israel all over again. *And* trust that the Palestinian people are going to be able actually *prevent* that. That's why I think the US ought to stay out of this. I don't want to be telling either party what's in their own best interest. "I don't doubt that many Jews are drawn to leftist politics out of sincere belief. But it only makes sense to question those beliefs when many of the same people…." Well that's certainly a reasonable reaction, although it seems to me for many if not most they still *are* indeed sincere, but their reasoning (what others certainly will call "rationalization" of course) is that Israel and judaism present somewhat of a "special case" due to the historic oppression of the jews and then the Holocaust too obviously. In short, that Israel deserves somewhat of a pass on many things. Not to carry water for this argument, especially since I disagree with it, but it does have some logic to it given that what it essentially says is that "context matters," which it does. For instance, it would be a little blind to not view the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution as above-all being passed to prevent government from discriminating against African-Americans, right? And indeed maybe the same logic is used by those who seek to explain ("excuse"?) the Palestinians from, say, not getting their act together in Gaza or elsewise and running a decent, non-corrupt government, right? That is … that context matters and that their society has been so shattered and oppressed that you can understand if still not approve of their dysfunctionalism, their toleration of corruption and terrorism and love of Saddam Hussein and etc. and so forth. I guess my view is that while context ought to matter in terms of our *understanding* of motivations, that ought not mean we tolerate the dual standards that those motivations would result in. And here especially while one can sympathize with the historical jewish experience it certainly wasn't the poor *Palestinians* who inflicted their historical torments upon them. Nevertheless for people coming out of the Holocaust I think we can have a little understanding of a bunker mentality; a feeling that "the world didn't give a shit about us then and wouldn't give any more about us in the future if we did give back Palestinian land and it was just used to attack us all over again," and etc., etc. And, as I've said before, in a way that's what the world is asking Israel to do, isn't it? Give back that land and then *trust* that the Palestinian people are not going to tolerate extremists amongst them to simply use it to attack Israel all over again. *And* trust that the Palestinian people are going to be able actually *prevent* that. That's why I think the US ought to stay out of this. I don't want to be telling either party what's in their own best interest.

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