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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
It looks like what I feared would happen did happen. That is that you would be radicalized by your trip, rather than liberalized. The radical approach rejects the concept of mutual humanization, for the concept of selective dehumanization.
Its the idea that balance (justice) is created in the world by a dissenter becoming a swinging pendulum rather than a fulcrum.
traitor
Ilan Pappe eviscerating israeli Nazi Efraim Karsh: http://ilanpappe.com/?page_id=10
Jewish Voice for Peace petition: Israeli soldiers have spoken–Share their stories with Congress If you are in the U.S., please send this email to your Representative and Senators in Congress. Share with them what happened in Gaza–from the mouths of Israeli soldiers themselves–and demand accountability.
December 2010 is a long time off if they already have the manuscript.
Richard Witty: As long as the power differential between Israel and the Palestinians continues to be overwhelmingly in favour of the Usurper Entity, you won't see a lot of 'dissenters becoming swinging pendula'. In the newest version of Israel's horsetrading, the Arab states are now expected to make concessions, in return for the phantasmagorical settlement freeze.
Should about coincide with the release of Seymour Hersh's book about Dick Cheney's Death Squad.
LovelyIsraelis is anti-semite
Jews own the land
Efraim Karsh won. Also Efraim was a "straw man" set up to advance pappe views on anti-israeli network news
Hi Phil, I hope you will report on what was said at Obama's meeting this week with Jewish Leaders. The reports were pretty cryptic. The idea that such discussions can be kept from the public is offensive to non-Jews.
Witty, you are no one to set parameters on what is 'radical' and what is 'liberal'.
Jews stole the land.
Jews own the Land.
Jews own some land. They stole some land. If they want to really own the land, they have to pay for it from a willing seller, and/or perfect title by compensation on land that is rationally contested. Even a million people screaming does not create ownership. You can call me RuevenbenLaban if you like.
Jews stole no land.
In any case. I will be fasting tomorrow in support of the Gaza civilians. And, my fast will include a mourning that they are kept prisoners by Israel, Egypt and Hamas.
Fair enough Witty. I agree w/ your last comment. This is what I've always agreed w/ you on. Hamas IS responsible (I just do not put them in the same context or level as Israel – however, Hamas is in and of themselves a problem and I agree).
For better or worse, Hamas is the only Palestinian leadership at the moment that is not a front organization for Judeo-Nazi consolidation of power and oppression. They have agreed unambiguously with the world consensus regarding resolution of the conflict. I'm surprised to hear Strahl attacking them.
as to Witty, nothing surprises me.
Israeli Jews stole the homes of 800,000 Palestinians and all the occupied territories.
Jews are thieves you say? No the land is ours.
Yeah like those jews in the old Warsaw Ghetto should've taken a more humane approach instead of getting all radical. Moderation is always a good thing. You know they killed some fine young German boys with those smuggled pistols–how many did they have, seven? They even dented up a few Panzers and threw a bottle cocktail at an 88 artillery piece. Such selective dehumanization is never a good thing. The Germans merely wanted their lebensraum.
Don't be fooled by Richard's misapplication of democratic and color-blind American style legal title and property rights principles to Israel's perverted land ownership principles. Here's a small sample of the difference written in 1987: http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?ti... And it sure has not grown better for the Palestinians since then.
Don't be fooled by Witty pretending he's a lawyer: http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?ti...
I love they way he plays lawyer and pretends US-style title and real property law applies in Israel.
Of course they did. You're not looking into it is all. Of the land that the settlements are located on, perhaps 1/10th could be said to be previously Jewish owned. (I don't know the number, just stating my suspicion that the number is not insignficant but FAR from a majority.) You can't expect the messianic age by land-lust Eitan.
It is the basis of land ownership in Israel, but too often rationalized away.
It's not about lust. It's about Justice. The land rightfully belongs to Jews. We have the strongest claim. Who was the last Palestinian ruler before Yasser Arafat? There was none. Jewish Kings ruled the land thousands of years before Islam. Arab invaders had no mandate, Crusaders had no mandate, Ottomans had no mandate, British had limited mandate to facilitate Jewish state in Israel and Jordan, Jordanians had no mandate. The land was, is, and always will be Jewish land.
So are you.
You stole the land. Dont like this discussion? Create one in Israel. This is for Americans.
Excuse me MRW but I have been following that particular poster closely and I and other members have agreed that many of that persons statements are anti-semetic. I, on the other hand have not made disparaging remarks towards the Jewish nation.
The land is not stolen. The land of Israel is Jewish land and it belongs to the Jewish nation. Jews are not thieves.
Traitor to what?
His nation. Look up traitor in the dictionary. Don't waste my time with simple definitions.
I think, I believe, I posit X, therefore ABC and GEF are now true. Hunh? And we're to take this seriously?
Traitor to whom?
Again, look it up in the dictionary I'm not going to answer this one again from you.
No, its the idea that since the teeter-totter's one side has been up in the air so long, motion, life requires a little weight be placed there, or alternatively, some weight be taken off the down side. A first step towards balance. Just fun.
Which nation is that? A tribe is not a nation.
Are you the chief of the Jewish tribes?
The Crusaders had a mandate from their God. Your people are expendable therefore. Sound familiar?
This is not a prayer recital class.
Forward.com has a pretty revealing article dated yesterday.
The bigger problem is Hamas is the only Palestinian organization that is not a proxy for Israel-US. And Hamas is the least corrupt. And every Palestinian knows it.
That's an understatement to the point of a lie: Here's a small sample of the difference written in 1987: http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?ti... It's much worse for the natives now.
Like I said, a pendulum swing of collective harms in the name of balance. Rather than a LIFE itself of balance.
If you're talking to Phil, you are justifying his reaction, rather than proving him wrong. Not all that different than Palestinian ragers justify the reaction of Zionists, rather than prove them wrong.
That's an understatement to the point of a lie.
The land can only BE (is) Jewish land by consent of the governed (not displacement of the inconvenient), and owned by fair compensation between willing transacters. If you can't make those two happen without the use of force, then the land IS not Jewish. Again and again, land is not Jewish or Palestinian. People are. And people change, not whether they are Jewish or Palestian perse, but whether it is more important to them that they are also accountants (like me), or civilists (rather than neo-religious, or faux-religious), or ecologists, or lovers of the ONE GOD (as distinct from lovers of the one priesthood).
And, every Palestinian knows that there are ways that Hamas is corrupt, so that leaves bad options, no?
You're not speaking from knowledge either of the law, or of the administration of the law. The application of the law in Israel is what is inconsistent. The reference to Jim Crow is a more relevant description within Israel than the reference to apartheid. The remedy happens by TWO efforts. One is accurate description of the persecution in design and functionally. The second is by the model of civil and enlightened Palestinian individuals and communities that don't break through the prejudices by the actual. Ranting dissent is neither of those.
Correction, The second is by the model of civil and enlightened Palestinian individuals and communities that break through the prejudices by the actual.