Oh my. New mood on campus. Sunday's Washington Post runs a review of The Attack on the Liberty, a new book by James Scott, the son of a survivor of the Israeli attack on a Navy ship during the Six day War in '67 that killed 34 Americans and that has never been adequately explained. Pro-Israel types always say, It's an accident, then a conspiracy theory. Not reviewer John Lancaster:
Scott cites transcripts of conversations between the Israeli pilots and air controllers in Tel Aviv to show that at least some Israeli commanders were aware of the Liberty's identity before the attack. He also shows that many U.S. officials -- including then-CIA director Richard Helms -- were privately scornful of Israel's explanation. Some believed the attack may have been ordered by a battlefield commander who feared that Israel's combat orders, if detected by the Liberty, might somehow leak to the Arabs.
Scott clearly has his own suspicions, though he produces no smoking-gun evidence to support the charge of a deliberate attack, perhaps because none exists. In that sense, his book is likely to disappoint the conspiracy theorists as much as it angers proponents of the "fog of war" defense offered by Israel. But Scott is wise to leave the speculating to others. The story is shocking enough as it is.
RE: In the 'Washington Post,' no less FROM YNET: "Thought-Police Is Here (in Israel)", by Rona Kuperboim, 07/10/09 The Foreign Ministry unveiled a new plan this week: Paying talkbackers to post pro-Israel responses on websites worldwide. A total of NIS 600,000 (roughly $150,000) will be earmarked to the establishment of an "Internet warfare" squad. The Foreign Ministry intends to hire young people who speak at least one language and who study communication, political science, or law — or alternately, Israelis with military experience gained at units dealing with information analysis….. ….Something worrisome is happening here lately. We see the accumulation of silencing attempts. The Nakba Law, the bill calling for a ban on protests outside the homes of politicians, Lieberman's Loyalty Law, and the biometric information database. The free speech hunting season is on…. ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3744516...
Fox News in Arizona ran an interview with James Scott and his father on June 21, 2009: http://www.jamesmscott.com/Site/Press_%26_Praise.... He has a powerful page of testimonials for the book here: http://www.jamesmscott.com/Site/Press_%26_Praise....
Good catch,
This is going to hit our military broadside. Sure, the Navy has known about this. But with so much official documentation backing up Scott's story, the US military is going to circle the wagons around its own forces. The majority of US troops weren't even born when this happened. in OUR military the code is that you dont bomb your friends, kill and maim them, and then lie about it for four decades. At least, that's what an ex-Marine told me at the bar on Father's Day eve after I saw the Fox clip online and was discussing it with this guy later. Maybe Alan Sabrosky could weigh in on this, if he's reading these comments.
Perhaps the Israelis didn't want the Americans to discover that it was the Israelis who started the Six-Day War: ===================== June 8, 2007 Six-Day War deliberately provoked by Israel: former Dutch UN observer By Daan de Wit Former Dutch UN observer, Colonel (ret.) Jan Mühren, said last Monday on the Dutch current affairs program Nova that in the run up to the the Six-Day War Israel provoked most border incidents as part of its strategy to annex more land. Jan Mühren, who was stationed interchangeably at the Golan Heights and the West Bank in 1966 and 1967, says Israel was not under siege by Arab countries. Mühren said neither Jordan nor Syria had any intention to start a war with Israel. Last Tuesday it was forty years ago the Six-Day War started. ===================== Watch the video of Former Dutch UN observer, Colonel (ret.) Jan Mühren“ http://www.deepjournal.com/p/7/a/en/729.html
Nice try- all you have too do is just suspend a bit of reality- and truth. The NSA has released documents and tapes pertaining to the USS Liberty incident which back up the Israeli version of the events of that day. The NSA tapes and records are identical to the Israeli tapes and records released over 25 years ago. For some odd reason, James Scott neglects to mention those facts. I'm sure Mr Weiss will make note of that in a post update. Speaking of the Liberty, I do wonder why no one seems to question the Iraqi attack on the USS Stark, which resulted in 34 deaths. Curious, don't you think?
Here is a short but great piece of video journalism covering the ceremony and reunion of the survivors of the USS Liberty two days before the 42nd anniversary of the incident. The U.S. mainstream media was, of course, nowhere to be found, but luckily for the truth and for all of us, Iranian PressTV was there to honor these sailors and the memory of their fallen comrades. Check it out, some really forward and inspiring statements by the surviving crew. The video opens with the President of the USS Liberty Veterans Association saying, "[Israel] shouldn't be called an ally… they don't deserve it." They're also plugging Scott's new book, which the video contains a shot of.
An idiot providing the viewpoint of another idiot. How nice.
Iranian TV. Now there is a truthful organization.
Add another historical and overlooked Israeli atrocity : The Bombing of the King David Hotel….
RE: "The NSA has released documents and tapes pertaining to the USS Liberty incident which back up the Israeli version" SEE: "New revelations in attack on American spy ship", by By John Crewdson, Tribune senior correspondent, "Chicago Tribune", 10/02/07 TRIBUNE SPECIAL REPORT: THE STRIKE ON THE USS LIBERTY Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn't tell full story of deadly '67 incident (EXCERPT) …Four decades later, many of the more than two dozen Liberty survivors located and interviewed by the Tribune cannot talk about the attack without shouting or weeping. Their anger has been stoked by the declassification of government documents and the recollections of former military personnel, including some quoted in this article for the first time, which strengthen doubts about the U.S. National Security Agency's position that it never intercepted the communications of the attacking Israeli pilots — communications, according to those who remember seeing them, that showed the Israelis knew they were attacking an American naval vessel. The documents also suggest that the U.S. government, anxious to spare Israel's reputation and preserve its alliance with the U.S., closed the case with what even some of its participants now say was a hasty and seriously flawed investigation…. ENTIRE ARTICLE (9 pages) – http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/...
RE: "The NSA has released documents and tapes pertaining to the USS Liberty incident which back up the Israeli version of the events of that day." MY COMMENT: 99 bottles of Zionist BS on the wall, 99 bottles of Zionist BS. Take one down and pass it around, 99 bottles of Zionist BS on the wall. 99 bottles of Zionist BS on the wall, 99 bottles of Zionist BS. Take one down and pass it around, 99 bottles of Zionist BS on the wall. 99 bottles of Zionist BS on the wall, 99 bottles of Zionist BS. Take one down and pass it around, 99 bottles of Zionist BS on the wall. 99 bottles of Zionist BS on the wall, 99 bottles of Zionist BS. Take one down and pass it around, 99 bottles of Zionist BS on the wall. 99 bottles of Zionist BS on the wall, 99 bottles of Zionist BS. Take one down and pass it around, 99 bottles of Zionist BS on the wall. 99 bottles of Zionist BS on the wall, 99 bottles of Zionist BS. Take one down and pass it around, 99 bottles of Zionist BS on the wall…….(ad nauseam)
I despise mendacity! I loathe it! I loathe it! I loathe it!
I've heard two theories. One is that Israel was afraid that the USS Liberty would pick up ground communication from El Arish, where the IDF was murdering unarmed Egyptian POWS. The other is that Israel was afraid that they would pick up Israeli communications about the planned attack on Syria, which Israel executed the next morning, violating the ceasefire and capturing the Golan Heights.
You obviously didn't watch it. (1) He was the UN Observer standing there watching what was going on and some of his 8mm footage formt eh time is used (2) Israeli journalist Rami Tai says that Moshe Dayan told him the same thing in an interview they agreed would not be published until after Dayan's death.
RE: "The NSA has released documents and tapes pertaining to the USS Liberty incident which back up the Israeli version" SEE ALSO: "Nader Presses McCain on Liberty Attack", Knight Ridder, October 31, 2008 (EXCERPT) Adding to his usual criticisms of the "corporate candidates" from the two major parties, independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader yesterday introduced a wrinkle, calling on John McCain to come clean about Israel's 1967 attack on the USS Liberty…. ….McCain was not involved in the incident, which killed 34 American sailors amid the Six-Day War between Israel and several Arab nations. Israel said the attack was a case of mistaken identity, and McCain's father, Adm. John S. McCain Jr., approved an investigation that determined the incident was a mistake. Nader is among those who think the report was a cover-up. He's dragging McCain into it because the senator wrote a positive note on a 2002 book, The Liberty Incident, that also concluded the attack was an accident. "He has been asked again and again by these Sailors and their families to come clean," Nader said. "Instead, he endorses a propaganda book that says it was accidental. That reflects on his character." The McCain campaign declined to respond. SOURCE – http://www.military.com/news/article/nader-presse...
My recollection is that the only tapes released were of communications between helicopter pilots and their ground control well AFTER the attack, not any communications prior to or during the attack that lasted over an hour. Those tapes can't proof anything, unfortunately. I'm sure many questioned the attack on the USS Stark, and there was in fact a Congressional hearing on it, which there was not for the Liberty attack. Other than the fact that they were both attacks on US ships and both resulted in the deaths of 34 crew members, there are very few similarities between the two attacks. In the case of the Stark, it was attack by a single Iraqi jet launching two missiles from 22 miles away in less than a minute. The chance of it being an irretrievable error under such conditions is considerable. The circumstances surrounding the Liberty attack are very different. There were multiple Israeli reconnaissance flyovers which were overheard confirming that the ship was American. There was then an extended close air attack by the Israelis on the ship, while Israel jammed American frequencies, making it nearly impossible for the ship to call for help. The extended air attack was followed by a lengthy torpedo boat attack that included the strafing of the Liberty's life boats, which was a major violation of the Geneva Convention regardless of whether they thought they were attacking Americans or Egyptians. The attack went on for over an hour, I believe, and according to ALL the crewmembers they were flying a large US flag before and during the attack. And despite all this, there was NO Congressional hearing at the time and the crew members were ordered not to talk about the incident. These are all major differences between this attack and the attack on the Stark 22 years later.
Here you go MRW: Alan Sabrosky http://216.240.133.177/archives32/Piper/2009/06/P...
What crap…you can google the recordings and transcripts of the US intercepts of the Israelis during the attack on the Liberty..the best collection of FOI documents is the BlackVault site. On the recordings you can hear the Israeli pilots relaying that they see an American flag on the ship. Co Pat Lang who taught at the war college came across them long before they were even declassified and they were common knowledge among the military. It is amusing that your type bothers to lie when a simple click of the mouse can prove you a liar. Israel never released any recordings at all. On every pint tht was investigated Israelipresented noevidence and their reply toevery pint was they made a "Mistake" Clifford Clark…google for it dumbo..did the gov report on the Liberty and shot Israel's "mistake" excuse to pieces. His report itself is a sight to behold, he was so disgusted with Israel's pitiful attempt to lie that he out lined all the Israeli "mistake" claims and then took them apart in the report.
Actually I know an elderly man , a Brit, whose Uncle was killed in the King David Hotel bombing. Sneaky,cowardly little jews dressing up like Arabs to bomb their British and US benefactors so they could blame it on the arabs..how fricking typical of slimy zionist..
Another idiot providing nothing at all. How refreshing.
interestingly,i heard the landgrab of israel as a result of the 6 day war (the 67 borders) is exactly the border the israelis originally proposed and requested in 48. coincidence? can anyone confirm this?
excellent interview. thanks.
The NSA tapes and records are identical to the Israeli tapes and records released over 25 years ago. For some odd reason, James Scott neglects to mention those facts. i believe that is one fact, not facts. it is a fact that we were told, and it was reported at that time the NSA tapes were identical to the Israeli tapes and records. however, it is not a fact they were identical, it is an assertion. take that asshole.
aside from the organization filming them, do you think the american soldiers present that day who were interviewed on this video are being truthful, or do you doubt their integrity. their opinions are compelling, no? it is a worthy interview. especially wrt to the massacre of egyptians piws and the golan heights.
crafty terrorists maybe, but not cowardly or little.
Here's a month or so old update on the USS Liberty incident; it shows why it is still very much relevant respecting the current hot potato issues: http://coyoteprime-runningcauseicantfly.blogspot....
“If American leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of American citizens, their American friends would let them get away with almost anything”–George Ball, Assistant Secretary of State, 1967 “The nation which indulges toward another… is in some degree a slave….a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils.”–President George Washington farewell address, Sept.17, 1796 “Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken on faith the word of their attackers.”– see Open Letter: Open letter to Congress by USS Liberty survivors: http://ussliberty.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/open-l...
I'm not sure wht there is a debate about Israel's intent to attack the USS Liberty. If I'm not mistaken, a few years back, one of the Israeli pilots even admitted that the attack was no mistake. I gets tiring giviing Jews and Israelis the benefit of the doubt on every issue, when they rarely do the same in return.
Yes. That Israeli pilot told a survivor he refused the mission and flew back home. I posted a url source for this on this blog a few days ago. Additionally, The Simon and Schuster website tells us that “Scott documents, for the first time, the fact that the ship was correctly identified by at least one of the pilots prior to the attacks.” The official investigation led by Senator McCain's father lasted 5 days–less time than it took to bury many of the ship's dead. Navy custom and procedure dictated the investigation should have lasted at least a half a year.
The National Archives in College Park, Md., includes in its files on casualties from the Liberty copies of the original telegrams the Navy sent out to family members. The telegrams called the attack accidental. The telegrams were sent out June 9, THE DAY BEFORE THE NAVY COURT OF INQUIRY CONVENED. The U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry is the only actual (and very hasty) investigation on the incident to date because U.S. congressional investigations and other U.S. investigations were not actually investigations into the attack; but, rather, reports using evidence only from the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry, or investigations unrelated to culpability that involved issues such as communications. The inquiry's terms of reference were limited to whether any shortcomings on the part of the Liberty's crew had contributed to the injuries and deaths that resulted from the attack. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident...
I know a man who was in the Mediterranean when the Liberty was attacked, and he talked to men on the ship who towed the Liberty to port. According to my friend, it was understood that the attack was no accident. And this is from a man who spent his entire career in the navy, and doesn't question he military's motives a whole lot.
Johnson is the highest culprit in both the USS Liberty and Gulf Of Tonkin incidents. He set the tenor and his cronies followed suit so that intelligence information was presented to the Johnson administration "in such a manner as to preclude responsible decision makers in the Johnson administration from having the complete and objective narrative of events." Instead, "only information that supported the claim that the communists had attacked the two destroyers was given to Johnson administration officials. Robert J. Hanyok, "Skunks, Bogies, Silent Hounds, and the Flying Fish: The Gulf of Tonkin Mystery, 2-4 August 1964", Cryptologic Quarterly, Winter 2000/Spring 2001 Edition, Vol. 19, No. 4 / Vol. 20, No. 1., at p. 177 In turn, and for the same reason, only information that supported the claim that Israel's attack was merely the result of Israeli negligence, a "tragic accident/mistake" was given to the Johnson administration officials. And then came the stove-piped information given to Chaney/Shrub regarding Iraq. Next up, equally selective information to support Israel/USA attack on Iran. Pretext anyone? The American Public never learns.
"Remember the Maine, to hell with Spain!" Or how the US got rid of Spain's influence and jacked itself up to sporting the second best Navy.
Coincidental: In another current thread here people are talking about the charge of being an anti-semite. And to me at least nothing I have ever seen has so devalued the charge than the subtle and not-so-subtle attempts I've seen here and there to paint these surviving Liberty men and/or their supporters as anti-semites. Ought to serve as a warning to those who like throwing around the epithet: In the future the devastating stock response might just be "yeah, just like the Liberty survivors!"
The survivors have colored opinons. As they are based on no knowledge, they are worthless. Just like Sin and Strahl.
Overlooked? Are you just ignorant or an antisemitic liar? Your choice.
It amazes me that there is any dispute at all about the fact that Israel planned and started the war with the intent of annexing land. There is LOADS of evidence – straight from the horses mouth that Israel started the war with the full knowledge that they would win and get the land they wanted. Period. Not that there should be any doubt . It was Israel that attacked first – but you'd never know that from reading any pro, semi-pro and even neutral account of the six day war. What a joke….
Coming from a lying scumbag Zionist Jew that means zilch. The Iranians have honor and integrity that you can only dream about…
1) Jan Muhren was in the Syrian Golan, so he should have known about Syrian attacks from the high ground onto Israeli farms. If he was a peace observer and didn't notice the many murderous attacks by the Syrian army on Israeli civilians, then he was derelict in his duty. 2) From the Golan, Muhren wasn't able to see the Egyptian blockade on Israel, at the other end of the country. 3) Muhren is another blithering idiot. Just the kind of "source" that MondoLiars just love.
An American flag does not make a ship American. The Pentagon DENIED SEVERAL TIMES on that day to Israel that it had any ships in the area. This is why Israel concluded that it wasn't really American – flag or not. Hey, if YOU were a Russian Spy ship, would you fly a large Russian flag????
No oneblamed it on Arabs. It was a guerrila attack on Occupying (and murdering) British forces. Not complicated at all. Except to MondoBrainers, maybe…
I have discussed this at length with some of the Liberty survivors, some of the most prominent among them. They have stumbled over contradicting versions and outright lies so often that I no longer accept anything they say. I have discussed this AT LENGTH with them. Your info is so much more superficial and unimportant… Do you have any REAL facts to illuminate this case?
You say both that "Johnson is the highest culprit" and also, apparently, the largest victim. Confusing. Johnson was behind it all. It was Johnson's treachery against an ally in wartime – and his getting caught with his pants down – that led to the attack and to the coverup by the White House and Congress. The problem is, you can't call him to testify about it anymore. He died long ago. The facts, though, remain and Johnson doesn't come out nicely in it.
Sin, I have discussed this case and debated it with Liberty survivors. At length. They mostly want the truth to come out, but the US govt won't allow it because they were on a double-dealing spy mission against Israel during war time. So the Liberty survivors can't get to the true story. Instead, their cause has become very popular with antisemites, for all the obvious reasons. Over time, the Liberty story HAS been adopted by antisemites, some of them raving loonies. Bottom line, much of what is written today about the Liberty IS INDEED antisemitic and not truth-seeking, at all. And this is very sad for those who served on the Liberty at that time.
the OPINIONS of Librty crew are not very valuable but their VERSION OF EVENTS is very valuable. I have found many inconsistencies and clues to the truth in their statements. The Liberty had just picked up a crew of Hebrew Linguists to decipher IDF communincations. This is how they knew about pilot conversations (not in real-time, though) and ground force comms in Sinai (which was their main spy mission). The clumsy attempts of Liberty surviviors to hide these facts, and their subsequent confessions to me, prove that the Liberty was spying on Israel for the benefit of Egypt and that the White House forbade them from speaking for reasons of National Security. This is why they are forbidden from speaking (much) to this day. The more they speak out, the more the truth becomes clear. And it doesn't paint LBJ in a good light….
Hi Jake. Well of course you're right that some of the supporters of the Liberty are surely anti-semites given that it's exactly the kind of thing they'd be drawn to. I should have noted same and made a distinction. Otherwise however I think you should expand on your belief that the Liberty was on a "double-dealing spy mission against Israel"; it just sounds like a hit-and-run diversionary kind of thing otherwise. (Even if its implication is that Israel did indeed knowingly try to sink that ship and kill all those sailors.) Again though, you got me for sure for being too broad originally.
Your recollection is incorrect. The tapes released were recorded prior to and then after the attack.
What lies? Be specific, please. The Israelis initially believed the ship was Egyptian, fraudulently flying an American flag. Funny how you seem to have more insight and knowledge than the NSA. You must be very important.
I'm sorry, where exactly is your evidence that there are discrepancies? Because YOU say there are?
Oh yes, Iranian Press TV. Their coverage of the recent elections certainly emphasizes their journalistic bona fides.
So your problem is with 'sneaky,cowardly little jews'. I Speaks volumes as to the irrelevant dimwit you are. By the way, those 'jews' called in a warning, as they had done countless times before. If you want to pretend to be credible, you have to pretend to know what you are talking about.
Evidence, please. Those damn Jews, right? And in fact, if you really gave a damn, you'd be up in arms over the attack on the USS Stark- but it's not like you really care.
The issue has never really been about the Liberty survivors as being antisemitic. The real issue is the use of the Libery incident by antisemites- as evidenced here on this thread. Rumor, unsubstantiated assertions, outright deceit and so on are all acceptable when it comes to the Liberty. If an attack on a US vessel really were of such concern, then what happened on the Stark would be front and center. Ask yourself why that isn't so.
Phil, On monetizing Mondoweiss, I believe, if you had made arrangements, you could have had a link to Scott's book at Amazon, and Amazon would have paid you a fee for every reader who clicked through to buy the book. You won't get rich that way, but you might generate some revenue. I suspect your readership buys a fair amount of books, and you could encourage commenters to make references to books that would be valuable in understanding the topics discussed here, and provide a link them to Amazon. Money, money, money, money. As to the Liberty incident, I think it would be good and healthy for Israel to undergo some introspection on this incident. It was an outrageous thing to do, and pure chutzpah to explain it away as a mistake, with no inquiry done and provided. I read somewhere that the wheel of the torpedo boat that put a hole in the Liberty and strafed its lifeboats sits in an Israeli Museum, commemorating what? Supreme Chutspah? Having gotten away with it for forty years seems likely to me to have had a corrupting effect on Israel, especially in how it has regarded its number one ally – as a sucker, or "frier," who can be repeatedly made the fool. There might be a much healthier Middle East today if those responsible for the Liberty had been held accountable. But it is never too late to stop going down the wrong path, and to turn toward the truth.
1) Israel ttacked Syria in 1967. 2) The Egyuptian blockade of Israle only affected 5% of shipping to Israel, but Israel still regaeded it as an act of war. Israel's blockade affets 100% of cargo to Gaza, and thus is a much greater act of war, deserving of a response. 3) Ad hominems don't sufice for debate. You're a liar.
"An American flag does not make a ship American." Yes it does. So does a massive sign on the side that said USS LIberty. The Israeli jets, which were unmarked, also flew pst the ship severla times and the crew waved to the pilots. "The Pentagon DENIED SEVERAL TIMES on that day to Israel that it had any ships in the area." False, the Israeli's never contacted the Pentagon and fled the scene when they heard that US jets were approaching. There was no evidence that the ship was a much smaller Egyptian vessel made for carrying horses.
"The Israelis initially believed the ship was Egyptian, fraudulently flying an American flag. " No they didn't. The Israelis used unmarked planes and did a number of fly bys. Apart from the flag, there was USS Liberty in 18 foot letters on the side of the ship and state of the art anetnnas, which the Israeli planes targetted first. An Israeli pilot who took part admitted they knew it was an American vessel but were ordered to hit it anyway.
"It was a guerrila attack on Occupying (and murdering) British forces. " No it was British forces based in British mandate Palestine. Isn;t that what you Zionists always argue when denying that Palestine ever existed? BTW. Israel celebrtaed the 60th anniversary of the attack in 2006. What other country has celebrated the 60th anniversary of a terrosit attack?
"By the way, those 'jews' called in a warning, as they had done countless times before. " The IRA used to call in warnings too but they were still terrorists. And 60 years after the fact, Israel celebrated the terrorist attack in it's name. Israel clearly celebrates terrorism. It even elected 2 terrorists to the office of PM.
The Israeli version has been filled with lies and ontyradictions. At first, Israel even denied attacking any ship. Jake, please name the people whom you have discussed this at length with. I would like to check to see if their names appear among the survivors. Also, what are the outright lies and contradicxtions you idenitfied.
"I have found many inconsistencies and clues to the truth in their statements. " What inconsistencies have you found jake? If it were true that the Liberty had just picked up a crew of Hebrew Linguists to decipher IDF communincations, then surely this would have been revealed in subsequent investigations. Where did you learn of this and what examples are there that they tried to hide this? If the Liberty was indeed trying to twart teh Israelis, then why were they not armed or prepared? Why were there no support ships in the area to give them cover? Why were all the survivors threatened with arrest and court martial if they talked to anyone about the attack? What evidence do you have that the Liberty was spying on Israel for the benefit of Egypt and why would they when Washington had no allegiance with Egypt at the time? LBJ had already given the Israelis the green light to attack Egypt. You are a patetic liar.
USS Liberty survivor Terry Halbardier, was recently honored with a belated Silver Star award for saving the lives of the victims of the USS Libertywhen they were attacked by Israel. U.S. Ambassador Edward Peck put it best in condemning the “obsequious, unctuous subservience to the peripheral interests of a foreign nation at the cost of the lives and morale of our own service members and their families.” Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Thomas Moorer put it, the attack “was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew.” Despite Israeli protestations, the accumulated evidence, including intercepted voice communications, is such that no serious observer believes Israel’s “Oops” excuse of a terrible mistake. The following exchanges are excerpts of testimony from U.S. military and diplomatic officials given to Alison Weir, founder of “If Americans Knew” and author of American Media Miss the Boat: Israeli pilot to ground control: “This is an American ship. Do you still want us to attack?” Ground control: “Yes, follow orders.” “But sir, it’s an American ship — I can see the flag!” Ground control: “Never mind; hit it!” Haviland Smith, a CIA officer stationed in Beirut during the Six-Day War, says he was told that the transcripts were “deep-sixed,” because the U.S. government did not want to embarrass Israel. Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen, was sent to Israel to read the riot act to then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who seemed to be itching to start hostilities with Iran while Bush and Cheney were still in office. Mullen, to his credit, went so far as to warn the Israelis not to even think about another incident like the attack on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967 — that the Israelis should disabuse themselves of the notion that U.S. military support would be knee-jerk automatic if Israel somehow provoked open hostilities with Iran. The Israelis know that Mullen knows that the attack on the Liberty was deliberate. Mullen could have raised no more neuralgic an issue to take a shot across an Israeli bow than to cite the attack on the Liberty. The Jerusalem Post reported that Mullen cautioned that a Liberty-type incident must be avoided in any future military actions in the Middle East.
Jake, there hasn't been enough paint manufactured in the entire history of this planet to paint LBJ in any light less than nauseating.
Several waves of IAF aircraft attacked a clearly identified American vessel operating in international waters. Are those facts real enough for you, Jake? Leaving out the similar claims of every survivor I have heard speak, and of the IAF pilot who refused the order, it's still pretty clear that the attack was intentional. I could accept your version of the attack as an unfortunate accident, but that would mean that the IAF pilots were too stupid and dangerous to fly combat missions.
Well said Todd, Jake doesn't even realise that his own version of events makes a lie of the Israeli version of events, which claim the attack was a huge mistake. In fact, the Israeli government even offered to pay compenastion to the victims, but never coughed up the money.
Wrong again Jake, It was Johnson's treachery against his own country. Israel is not now nor has Israel ever been a US ally. No alliance treaty exists between Israel & the US. After the '67 warLBJ offered Israel an alliance treaty. Israel refused, because all alliance treaties have, inter al, 2 requirements: that all signatory nations state clearly & precisely where their national borders lay; and that any signatory initiating military actions against a non-signatory must inform in advance all the other signatories to the alliance treaty. Israel has always refused to accept these 2 standard requirements of any alliance. Of course, your version of events means that Israel's official version, that the attack was a mistake, is a lie. Of course, you have not presented a single fact.
"As they are based on no knowledge, they are worthless. " Yes, how coudl the witnesses to the event have any knowledge of it. You are such a putz.
Funny how eyewitness accounts are dismissed in the particular case of the USS Liberty. In any other situation eyewitness testimony would never be discounted. Just in the case of the USS Liberty. It is unprecedented and shows the real bias that exists here.
The U.S.A. should do a great deal of introspection on this incident as well.
As the saying goes Ron, are you going to trust us or your lying eyes?
Shingo, the ignorant, needs some more embarassing facts… 1) Syria was attacking Israel BEFORE the begining of the war in June, 1967. When Egypt and Jordan invaded, Syria and Iraq (which doesn't even border Israel) joined in, to "push the Jews into the sea, for once and for all". 2) The blockade was an act of war. And if you want to complain about Gaza, there is an Islamo-Fascist govt in Hamastan/Gaza that has declared never-ending Jihad against the Jews, so nothing surprising here. 3) Muhren was commenting on something he was in no position to see or comment on. Like you. Not only was Muhren a blithering idiot, so was whoever it was who quoted him. Not an ad hominem (you must've just learned the term!), but a relevant point in this debate on the facts.
Shingo is full of mistakes and lies, as usual. 1) The Pentagon EXPLICITLY declared to Israel on that day that they had no ships off the Gaza coast, nor anywhere in the area. This is why they later came up with the story that orders to the Liberty were mis-directed to the Philipines, even if that is not really believable. 2) Israel did not have unmarked jets flying at that time. I have debated Jim Ennes on this precise point. He told me that he saw Israeli Phantoms. When I pointed out that Phantoms weren't delivered to Israel until 1968, he changed his story. He did this many times. Once again, Shingo-Bigot, you are relying on bad sources for your bad arguments. (If they really were Phantoms, then which country sent them? Israel didn't have any Phantoms. Did the US bomb it's own ship???) 3) US jets did NOT approach. Ennes himself says so. The Sixth Fleet sent air cover but Johnson and McNamara re-called those aircraft TWICE on that day, by direct voice communication to the 6 Flt admiral. LBJ couldn't support a spy ship that he swore didn't exist. This was LBJ's problem – and the US sailors paid the price. I am happy to bring you the facts. Anytime. That it upsets your bigoted and ignoranat arguments only shows that MondoBigots like you can only feel free at MondoLies.
If the planes were unmarked, how do you know they were Israeli? Maybe they were Egyptian, hoping to start a fight between Israel and the USA???? (P.S. I"ve been through this with Jim Ennes. You are now sunk, I guarantee. Shingo, you pathetic liar.)
British forces, sometimes uniformed, sometimes undercover MURDERED JEWS in Israel, including teenagers. Some of us haven't forgotten. Britain had alreeady given 3/4 of Palestine to Emir Abdullah for the creation of Trans-Jordan and his anouncing himself to be KING Abdullah. Oh, Abdullah was assasinated by "Palestineans" for stealing their land. Check it out for yourself. Arab brotherly love… Land theives all… Celebration? Funny, I missed that party. Shingo, you are a lying bigot. Bring reliable references for your slander or go down as the antisemitic bigot you are.
I never claimed the attack was unintentional. Those pilots and commanders wanted to hurt the ship, or at least scare it away. The only question was on confirmation of identity – Friend or Foe. Because it appeared to be American, the Israelis asked Washinton what the hell their spy ship was doing of the coast of Gaza in the middle of a hot war. The Pentagon replied that they had no ships in the area. None. This was repeated a few times. Eventually, the Israelis decided that it must've been Egyptian or Russian and so they hit the ship to make it go away. This is precisely why LBJ and McNamara PERSONALLY recalled air cover TWICE on that day. They couldn't support a spy ship they claimed didn't even exist. This is clear even in Ennes' account. You really need to investigate the facts before pontificating. I have, so I speak. You just blabber…
1) The mistake was in identification. This was entirely the fault of the spying, cheating LBJ and NSA (which had taken control of the Liberty from the Navy for this spy mission). Check out Ennes' account – and he sure ain't no friend of the Jews. 2) Israel did indeed pay compensation. 3) The compensation money probably came from teh US anyways, because the whole story was a cover to protect JOHNSON AND MCNAMARA, not to protect Israel. Hey, Israel readily admitted to attacking the ship; Johnson never admitted to ssending the ship there. Did the Liberty go on a spy mission armed with Hebrew Language Analysts all by accident?
Sarcasm alert!!!! Shingo you are right. Israel and the USA are not allies have always been at war with each other. Israel votes against the US at the UN every chance it gets. Israel arms itself exclusively with Russian weapons. Israel has been the closest ally of the Taliban, etc. Sarcasm alert – off! Shingo, you are a fool. Not ad hominem, just factual. You are unreliable. MondoShingo!
Sin, please see some of my other postings on this topic, elsewhere in this thread. As for double-dealing, even the account by survivor Jim Ennes describes this with astonishment. The Liberty put out a call for help, the Sixth Fleet, a few hundred miles north of this war zone scrambled jets to help and notified the Pentagon of their action. The Pentagon recalled these jets. The Admiral, thinking there had to be some mistake, sent a SECOND squad of aircraft to support the Liberty. This is when McNamara and Johnson both got on voice communications to the 6 Flt Admiral and recalled those jets, as well, screaming their orders. Johnson couldn't support a spy ship that he had so vehemently denied to the Israelis even existed. Ennes' account to me made it clear that the Liberty was spying on Israel and only on Israel. LBJ was spying against a friendly state during a war. He couldn't admit to that. So he let the Liberty sailors adrift. This is what drives the survivors so nutty. They were sent on a nasty spy mission, abandoned and now are threatened by the US not to talk about it. To this day.
Shingo, you ask questions and, without waiting for a reply, declare me a liar? Are you afraid of the facts?
For the benefit of those seeking the truth. Shingo is excluded. 1) Inconsistencies. Aircraft identifications. Language of command. Level of Hebrew used by IAF pilots. Level of Hebrew needed to translate commands and radio chatter. The Liberty survivors I have discussed this with made the most absurd assertions – and then, when faced with obvious facts, changed their story. I found this many time. 2) Nothing would necessarily "have been revealed in subsequent investigations." The NSA has threatened the survivors not to talk too much, remember? They say so themselves. My sources are with the Liberty sailors themselves. The Liberty was denied air support (see Ennes' and others for this) to protect LBJ. This makes the survivors furious, to this day. The only party they are ALLOWED to accuse is Israel, so that's what they do. But they know who the real culprit was. This is also why they are not allowed to talk about it, even still. Spying for Egypt: LBJ wanted the war to end a stalemate, and then he'd come riding in and demand a ceasefire. Changing the balance of power wasn't in his interests. As for green lights, you haven't been listening to Biden/Hussein-Obama recently, have you? Who's the liar now, Shingo?
Your museum story is PRECISELY the kind of antisemitic baloney that keeps the Liberty story alive – and keeps the truth from emerging. And making money from antisemitic propaganda? Brilliant! You must be Jewish!!! Maybe one of those self-hating Jews who still loves money? Like Phil MondoLies himself????
On the contrary, it is precisely the contradictory versions of the eye-witnesses that makes them not credible. Also, it is the US Congress that won't allow those eye-witnesses to speak. Guess what the reason is? And Israel isn't even part of the answer…
I find your reply very interesting. Too bad you can't or won't go further with it.
Might be interesting to know who us is?
Jake, By all means, you are more that welcome to provide evidence if you feel so inclined. 1) The Israeli aircraft were unmarked. No one on board testified to what the pilots said or in what language. That was based on NSA intercepts. Israel had already taken out the communications antenna on the ship, so they could not have heard anything anyway. You don't mention what the absurd assertions are made by the Liberty survivors. You don't mention what story was changed. 2) There was no official investigations. >> My sources are with the Liberty sailors themselves. And their names are? >> The Liberty was denied air support (see Ennes' and others for this) to protect LBJ. No air suport arrived. The planes were ordered to return, but Isrral knew planes were on their way which is why they chickened out and didn't finish off the ship. Why shouldn;t the survivors be furious, to this day. Israeli meurderd more than 30 of them and their own country failed to come to their rescue. >> The only party they are ALLOWED to accuse is Israel, so that's what they do. What party are they not allowed to accuse and seeing as they are not allowed to talk about it, how do you know who ther real culprit it? >> LBJ wanted the war to end a stalemate, and then he'd come riding in and demand a ceasefire. No evidence of that. You are just guessing. >> Changing the balance of power wasn't in his interests. There was no balance of power. Israel had visited Washington to ask for permission to attack Egypt. LBJ told them they would easily defeat Nasser. >> As for green lights, you haven't been listening to Biden/Hussein-Obama recently, have you? Biden aid yes, Obama said no. Bush said no last year. >> Who's the liar now, Shingo? Like I said before. You are.
>> Sarcasm alert – off! I take it you have been unable to come up with evidence of an alliance treaty signed between the US and Israel? I'm the one who produces facts. Too funy. You Zionist shills are pathetic.
Jake, You have bene caught in another lie: 1) You made the claim that Israel attacked the Liberty becasue it was spying for Egypt (without providing any evidence) yet you also claim that Israel mis identified the ship. 2) Wrong. Israel said it woud, but paid nothing in the end. As usual, the bill was sent to the US tax payer. 3) Caught in your own lie. So you say that Israel paid compensation, then in the nest sentence, admit that the compensation came from teh US taxpyer anyway. Israel admiited to attackign the ship, after denying it. >>Did the Liberty go on a spy mission armed with Hebrew Language Analysts all by accident? You're the only one making that accusation. So are you goin to prove it?
>> British forces, sometimes uniformed, sometimes undercover MURDERED JEWS in Israel, including teenagers. False. No British forces murdered Jews. >> Oh, Abdullah was assasinated by "Palestineans" for stealing their land. And Rabin was murdered by a Jewish settler for holding peace talks. Jake, you are a liar, and whats worse, you are a a bad one. I'll bring reliable references when you do.
1) Please provide proof that the Pentagon EXPLICITLY declared to Israel on that day that they had no ships off the Gaza coast. 2) First you cite Jim Ennes and then you declare him a liar. Of course, there is no proof you had the conversation, so you are probabyl lying. 3) US Jets were dispactched, which is thay the chicken shit IAF stopped attacking the Liberty and ran way. You are again caugh in your own lie. You claim the US jets did not appraoch, then 2 sentences later, you state that the Sixth Fleet sent air cover but Johnson and McNamara re-called those aircraft TWICE on that day. So many lies and contradictions in your story Jake, it's hard to know where to begin. Now as to the lies of Israel: 1) The Israelis initially claimed they had "mistaken" the Liberty for the Egyptian ship El Quseir. But the El Quseir was only 40 percent the size of Liberty (4000 vs. 10,400 tons). The El Quseir was an old, rustedout horse transport that bore about as much resemblance to the Liberty as a rusty VW does to a new Cadillac. She bore standard U.S. Navy markings, which included a freshly painted 10foothigh hull number, and Liberty on the stern. 2) The radio jamming is by itself damning evidence that the assailants knew exactly whom they were attacking. Such jamming requires intimate advance knowledge of the target being jammed, obtained by extended monitoring of its signals. And this was selective jamming; it struck Liberty's frequencies and no others. 3) Afterward, in one of their ever changing explanations, the Israelis claimed to have learned the ship's identity when they heard its distress signals. But the attack continued for sixty six minutes after the first distress signal, which the Israelis had jammed, was sent. Had this particular Israeli claim been true, they would have recalled the torpedo boats before they even reached the ship. 4) The Israelis claimed that the ship's U.S. flag hung limp because there was no wind. Later, when presented with the fact that the flag had been perfectly visible, they claimed that they thought that the ship was an enemy vessel flying false colors. The extended radio monitoring, exposing considerable advance investigation of Liberty's communication facilities, refutes this claim. 5) The Israelis claimed that the torpedo boats, after first sighting the ship, had called in the aircraft to attack after the ship refused to identify itself. This is an obvious lie, because the attack was clearly a preplanned and well coordinated onetwo punch employing different branches of the Israeli Defense Forces.Directly contradicting themselves, the Israelis later claimed that their aircraft had called in the torpedo boats. 6) The Israelis eventually admitted that before the attack, their commanders had compared reconnaissance photos of the Liberty with Jane's Fighting Ships. But they claimed that before the attack they twice telephoned the U.S. naval attache in Tel Aviv inquiring whether the Liberty was a U.S. ship and were told that there were no U.S. Navy ships in the area. They claimed that having received a negative reply, they decided that the ship had to be the El Quseir. However, the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv, and later the naval attache, emphatically stated that no such inquiries were made. The Israelis not only knew the ship's nationality and that she was an "ELINT" ship; they also knew she was the Liberty herself. 7) Immediately preceding the attack, an Israeli pilot recognized Liberty as a U.S. ship and radioed this information to IDF headquarters. He was instructed to attack anyway. This dialogue was intercepted at the U.S. embassy in Beirut. Former U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter revealed the existence of this intercept in 1991. 8) The Golan attack was scheduled for 11:30 a.m. on 8 June; the Liberty was spotted by 6 a.m. or earlier; lastminute orders delayed the Golan attack; the Liberty was put out of commission; and the Golan attack occurred shortly thereafter. The vaunted IDF made very few mistakes in that war.
Correction to Jake's lies: 1) Isreal were returning fire at Syria, so both sides were attacking each other. In the case of the Liberty attack, the Golan attack was scheduled for 11:30 a.m. on 8 June; the Liberty was spotted by 6 a.m. or earlier; lastminute orders delayed the Golan attack; the Liberty was put out of commission; and the Golan attack occurred shortly thereafter. The vaunted IDF made very few mistakes in that war. 2) The blockade affectedd only 5% of deliveries to Israel. wMeanwhile, Israel has been blockading Gaza ( also an act of war) but claims that any rockets fired from Gaza is an act of agression. Also, Hamas has supported a 2 state solution and said they would accept the Arab peace initiative, which offerd to recongniz Isael as per the 1967 borders. The facist leadership in Israel has rejected the offer. 3) All your comments have been nased on subjects you are in no positon to see or comment on. Stupid, lame brain argument.
Jake: Good for you for articulating your thesis. However, I have a question: If I read you right you are not denying that it was Israel that attacked the Liberty, nor denying that it knew it was an American ship. And thus your crucial points are that Israel attacked it because A) the Liberty was on a pro-Egyptian mission that B) the Israelis knew of, is this correct? So are you saying that the people involved who you spoke to told you this directly, or is this your conclusion from what they told you? And, if the former, how they purported to know, and if the latter what specifically led to that conclusion? Is interesting.
"On the contrary, it is precisely the contradictory versions of the eye-witnesses that makes them not credible" There are no contradictions, apart from the contradictions in your interpretation of the attack. "Also, it is the US Congress that won't allow those eye-witnesses to speak." That would be the same US Congress that are bribed by the Israeli lobby yes. Israel is the alpha and the omega of the answer.
"I never claimed the attack was unintentional." You claimed it was a mistake, which makes it unintentional. Israel said it was a mistake, so you are stating 2 lies at once. "Those pilots and commanders wanted to hurt the ship, or at least scare it away. " But Israel denies this, so either you are lying, the Israeli government is, or both. "The Pentagon replied that they had no ships in the area." False. Israel they claimed that before the attack they twice telephoned the U.S. naval attache in Tel Aviv inquiring whether the Liberty was a U.S. ship and were told that there were no U.S. Navy ships in the area. They claimed that having received a negative reply, they decided that the ship had to be the El Quseir. However, the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv, and later the naval attache, emphatically stated that no such inquiries were made. The Israelis not only knew the ship's nationality and that she was an "ELINT" ship; they also knew she was the Liberty herself. "This is clear even in Ennes' account." Rubbish. Ennes never stated this in any public statement. So many contradictions Jake. So many lies. You are quite the conspiracy theories I see.
"f the planes were unmarked, how do you know they were Israeli?" Egypt had different different planes to Israel. "I"ve been through this with Jim Ennes." You say you have, but seeing as you can't prove it, we can safely assume you are lying about what Ennes said to you or lying that you have even been in contact with Ennes. Your hilarious conspiracy theory contradicts Israel's official explanatrion, so either you are lying, Israel is lying, or both of you are lying. So many contradictions Jake. Why do you isist on soling yourself in public?
"The NSA has released documents and tapes pertaining to the USS Liberty incident which back up the Israeli version of the events of that day." The NSA destroyed the tapes of the intercepted Israeli conversation, so how could they have released them? "Speaking of the Liberty, I do wonder why no one seems to question the Iraqi attack on the USS Stark, which resulted in 34 deaths." Yes it was odd, though Iraq have never claimed to be our best ally.
It's not a thesis Sin, it's a conspiracy theory and one that directly contradicts Israel's own official explanation. Thus, either he is lying, the Israeli government is lying, or both.
"The tapes released were recorded prior to and then after the attack." Wrong. The tapes contained conversations between the pilots and their command, therefore they were during the attack.
"Johnson couldn't support a spy ship that he had so vehemently denied to the Israelis even existed" False. Johnson never denied the existence of the ship. "Ennes' account to me made it clear that the Liberty was spying on Israel and only on Israel." Please link to this account. "LBJ was spying against a friendly state during a war. " Israel has spied on the US for decades and never did the US attack Israel or sink Israeli vessels.
"Jake, there hasn't been enough paint manufactured in the entire history of this planet to paint LBJ in any light less than nauseating." True, and it woudl take a lot more to put a shine on Israel.