This is a video of Medea Benjamin at the border in Gaza last month, talking about Hamas and about women's rights in Palestine. I showed my wife and her friend this video and asked them their impression. "Sincere," was the first word out of both of their mouths. Benjamin grew up on Long Island in a family that supported Israel, and at 18 she changed her first name to Medea and began a life of travel and activism, culminating in her co-founding the antiwar group Code Pink. I hung out with Benjamin in Gaza and found her warm, funny, lowkey, effective. And like Greta Garbo in Ninotchka, she carries her own bags. It was her third trip to the territory since the slaughter of Dec-Jan. Benjamin doesn't do things halfway. She will be talking about her Gaza experience tomorrow night in New York at the Brecht Forum– along with Norman Finkelstein, Felice Gelman, Sammer Aboelela, and myself– at 6 p.m. 435 West Street, between Bank and Bethune.
So what you are saying is that you are afraid that she will encourage people to think for themselves and come up with a conclusion that is not in accord with your own, am I right? Why are you so afraid of free speech Thom? And how is what she says dangerous? After all, it is true and you know it.
"We have the right to build." In Israel yes, not on Palestinian land.
"Fully agree with Thom, "if the Hamas charter has no relevance, they can change it" or burn it!" Or they can simply ignore it.
Thom, "If you can find any quotes that aren't hoaxes made up by anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic propagandists I would be surprised. " Of course that quote was made by an Israeli Jew, but why let facts get in the way of a bit of hyperbole right Thom? Apart from the fact that the translation of he charter is highly dubious, the charter has never been adopted by the Political wing of Hamas according to Sir Jeremy Greenstock, former British Ambassador to the U.N. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/05/world/middleeas... 23746.stm Asked recently about the Hamas Charter, Meeshal said it was 20 years old, adding, “We are shaped by our experiences.” Vague i agree, but it is the kind of ambiguity that we hear from Israeli politicians all the time. Why should he show his hand this early in the game? Furthermore, Meeshal has indeed embraced the two-state solution as agreed by international consensus. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/05/world/middleeas... Of course, that's a moot point given the wholesale rejection by Netenyahu of a two-state solution as most people understand the term. As for the right of return, why should Israel cease to exist? You are aware of course, that had there been no ethnic cleansing in 1948, Israel would still exit today, albeit not with a Jewish majority. Israel was never promised a Jewish majority. In fact, the Balfour declaration specifically stated that the Palestinian population were not to be disenfranchised in any way, which Israel did of course, so Israel violated the terms the the agreement from the start. Still, there are alternatives to the right of return, such as compensation, which I expect most refugees would accept. As for remarks about what's in Meeshal's heart, you are probably aware that Olmert said exactly the same thing about Israel to the Knesset, that he believed in Israel God given right to all the land from Jordan to the sea, while telling the world that a 2 state solution was necessary. As for the charter, yes, they could and should change it, but Israel's obsession with it is a smokescreen. There is no problem ignoring it. The PLO had a charter that was very similar and having made a fuss of that document for many years, Israel's leaders managed to ignore it and deal with Arafat did they not?
Better to change it or burn it
We have the right to build on Jewish land which includes Judea Samaria and Gaza
Only with Palestinian permission. If they say no, then you can't. Those are the rules that Arabs in Israel respect, so should Jews in Judea Samaria and Gaza.
I think it was a former Israeli Prime Minister who called Jews the master race and referred to all non Jewish humanity as human excrement and said that you are different from the inferior races as we are from insects. In fact, compared to your race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. So no, you are not snakes or cockroaches Eitan.
Good, then I'll ask you and other members to stop calling Jews names like snakes, cockroaches, or actually in my opinion worse bots, zionbots, jewbots etc. Dehumanizing your enemy is the first step on a slippery slope. Zionist Jews like me are not robots or animals.
Poor Jake, Your first link mentions "thousands of people". not ten thousand, but why let the facts get in the way of hyperbole. In the Lebanon civil war, Israel killed at least 18,000 alone, not to mention the Sarbra and Shatilla massacre, and the rocket attacks on the UN refugee compound.
"Thousands of people" is consistent with 10,000. And if it was only 8,000 slaughtered in one month of Intifada against the King of Jordan, does that make it much better? Idiot. In Lebanon, a quarter million people were slaughtered – mostly Muslims by other Muslims. Some of the victims were Christians, slaughtered by Muslims, especially Palestineans. EVEN IF Israel had killed 18,000 (and your figures are notoriously incorrect), it is insignificant next to the 250,000 others killed. As for Sabra and Shatilla, Israel did not kill a single person there. About 800 Palestineans were slaughtered by the Phalange Christian militia in retaliation for a prior massacre of Christians by Palestineans. Your statement is hate-filled anti-Jewish anti-Israel propaganda. As always Shingo, when you actually know something, come back and tell us. Otherwise, you remain an ignorant fool. Still.
On the contrary, Palestinean terrorists ROUTINELY fire on civilians while they hide behind foreign forces. This is PRECISELY what they were doing in Gaza, firing rockets from INSIDE U N school grounds and office compounds. They did the same in Lebanon. In the past, they have also sent outside mercenaries to do their dirty work, e.g. Kozo Okamoto, a Japanese unrelated to the M E at all. And you call yourself a History Buff? MondoLiar…
The antisemite has never read nor studied the Talmud. Probably can't read English, either… Bigots ar like that. Especially MondoBigots….
Shingo, I DARE YOU TO BRING A REFERENCE TO THAT QUOTE. You can't becuase no such thing was ever uttered. You are an anti-semitic liar. Shingo, the MondoBigot.
Galloway out of Israel!
resistance = terrorism
No, I'm saying that I am afraid that she will encourage people to help put the Palestinians in a position to exterminate the Jews in Israel. Which they would do (see Hamas charter). I believe in the right to free speech. That doesn't mean that what people say isn't dangerous. She is dangerous for the same reason that anyone who wants to destroy the defenses against an enemy is dangerous. She wants to tie the hands of the Israeli military and give the advantage to Palestinian terrorists. That is dangerous.
The antisemites here are happy to consider the kidnapping and holding without information of Gilad Shalit for over 3 years to be "compliance with Geneva conventions". MondoBigots never demand ANY decency from barbaric Arabs. But they throw foul slandering lies against Israel and Jews all the time. That's why this site is called MondoLies.
The Hamas Charter, according to Meeshal, is no longer relevant. as we've already discussed. Israel isn't defending itself. It is an occupying power that is violating international law. Israel has routinely commited war crimes, and inflicted massive collective punishement, not to mention, routiknely targetting civlians, so it's a very sound idea to ties the hands of the Israeli military. Palestinians terrirists, unliek Israeli terrorists, are no threat to Israel.
The Ziofascist are not only happy to consider the kidnapping and holding without information 2 brothers that were kidnapped the day before Shalit was captured, but at least we know that Shalit is alive and well and corresponding with Israel, unliek the thousands that Israel has dissapeared. Listening to Isreli applogists preach about the Geneva convention is like listeing to Stalin giving a sermon about human rights. ARabs are decent people like Jews, but shills like you Jake, cling to the carnard that Israel are the Jews. They are not. More and more Jews are disatncing themselves from Israel and most refuse to live in that 3rd world country. Israel is a facist, racist, terrorist state.
"resistance = terrorism " Yes, the Nazis considered the French resistance to be terrorits and the Zionist resistance movement are regarded as terrorist too. The thing is that resistance is legitimate under internatinoal law.
I have provided penty of facts on the Libery. All you have presented is a conspiracy theory about the Liberty spying for Egypt. You may well have studied the Liberty over 20 years ago, but you clerly haven't learned very much. Your theories have failed. Your claims of havin spone to survivors (you only mentoned one) have provided no new information. You simply read about the Liberty and saw what you wanted to see. That is why no one believes your version.
I refuse to answer any comment with Nazi comparison. From now on you will see that message any time a Nazi comparison is made.
another comment here equating Jews to animals and inanimate objects a parrot and a computer
Free Shalit!
There is nothing false about the fact that Israel are occupiers and control the air, land and sea access to Gaza. Nor is there anything false about eh that that the Palestinians in Gaza are legally entitled to resist occupation. It might be inconvenient to your thesis, but it not false. The right-wing shift in Israeli consciousness has been the result of the settler movement. The settler who assassinated Rabin was motivate by a belief in the right of Jews to all of Palestine, not fear of terrorist. The only progress that took pace as far as discussion between the PA and Israel was Taba, and that vut interrupted not by Hamas, but by the impending Israeli elections, which were won by Sharon. Hamas resumed shelling of Israeli towns immediately after Israel violated the ceasefire with an attack on the 4th of November. Until that moment, Hamas had observed the ceasefire meticulously, in spite of the fact that Israel had violated it by refusing to lift the blockade, as they had agreed to do. Sorry, but unless you can provide evidence that Hamas violated the cease-fire for the first two months, I have to assume you are lying, Mark Regev even acknowledged that Hamas fired no rockets for the 4 months of the cease-fire. Israeli attitudes were shifted entirely by the narrative. The Israel government incited a response, which had been planned 6 months prior on a day while the world was pre occupied with the US elections, and then sat back for 9 days and played the public. As Tzipi Livni has said, Israel are not interested in a log ceasefire because it would not be in their strategic interests. The only time Israel has been serious about political settlements was in Taba, where Barak called off the talks early because of the impending elections. The other time was Rabin. BTW Norman Finkelstein "facts" are irrefutable. A dance does indeed require equal partners. This is not a war but an occupation. The so called war is simply resistance to occupation and counter resistance. Hamas’ use of terror is regrettable, but unlike Israel, they have few options. Arafat has demonstrated that patience and recognizing Israel historically produces nothing. I do agree that both Hamas and Likud were roadblocks to peace, but whether it be Likud or Kadima in power, Israel have always held all the cards.
By all means Jake, list the mitary bases that are closer to Gaza than Sderot and Ashkelon.
I have discussed the Liberty incident with more than one survivor. And I've quoted them and their names and their references. You just can't read!!! Flat-Earther Shingo! You have not researched this topic at all – but that doesn't stop you from going on and on and on. Hey, you already KNOW the world is flat, why bother looking for scientific evidence? Shingo, you are so lame… your arguments are, too. Don't stop now. We need the entertainment…
Your first sentence is false. It's not even worth reading the rest. Your postings are ALL false. But you are so PROUD of your ignorance. A real bigot. A MondoBigot. Shingo the MondoBigot. It's people like Shingo that get MondoLies classified as a "hate site" and then blacklisted. And then Shingo will go and complain that it's all the Jews' fault that he's such a marginalized bigot… What a riot!
Shingo, you stupid-head. You said: "Israeli bases are in the middle of poplated areas" Not NEAR, but IN. You don't understand your own stupid arguments. Do you argue with yourself in the mirror? What a dope.
Even if Shingo is right (we're humoring this moron), does it make sense to attack some nearby city because the soldiers are harder to shoot at??? If Osama bin Laden can't bomb Washington, doeds it make it smarter to bomb, say, Rome instead because it's closer? Shingo Mondo Logic. Pathetic.
Gosh, Shingo. Of the more than 2 dozen countries in the Middle East, including those that forbid entry to Infidels, those that still practice slavery, those that won't allow MondoMax in, those that forbid the use of video cameras, those that have backwards Internet access, those that imprison gays, pull clits off with their fingers, behead dissidents, imprison rape victims, sell their daughters for a few goats and pray that their children will kill themselves as "martyr" shahids, of all these barbaric, backwards, inhumane societies, Shingo bleats on and on and on and on about… Israel being "a facist, racist, terrorist state." See why you can't be considered credible?
Gosh, Shingo. Of the more than 2 dozen countries in the Middle East, including those that forbid entry to Infidels, those that still practice slavery, those that won't allow MondoMax in, those that forbid the use of video cameras, those that have backwards Internet access, those that imprison gays, pull clits off of little girls with their fingers, behead dissidents, imprison rape victims, sell their daughters for a few goats and pray that their children will kill themselves as "martyr" shahids, of all these barbaric, backwards, inhumane societies, Shingo bleats on and on and on and on about… Israel being "a facist, racist, terrorist state." See why you can't be considered credible?
Palestinian to English dictionary: Harmless attack: An attack that only kills a few Jews. Non-violent demonstration: Violent demonstration.
Well, actually, if the bases were in the middle of the city, then it would be legitimate to aim at the base, even though it is in the city. It would still not be legitimate to aim at the city itself. The fact that Hamas aims at the civilian targets would be a violation of the Geneva Conventions, if the Palestinians were bound by them. Since they are not bound by them, it just means that their firing at the Israeli civilian targets shows that the Palestinians do not accept the Geneva Conventions. Which sucks for them because it makes the settlements legal.
If Israel targeted civilians, then it would make them despicable. Since Israel doesn't, they aren't despicable. Two problems with your quote. First, it is citing a journalist, not someone who is in a position to set policy for Israel. Second, you made it up. I googled it. The only citations of that quote on the web are your own posts on other message boards. The original is similar, but another splendid example of quotes mutating. The original quote from Ze'ev (as best I can tell from citations on the web) was that General Mordechai Gur said that the army hasn't distinguished… etc. Every citation of Ze'ev's words that I find include an ellipsis "…" indicating that who knows what has been cut out. Also, the quote as a whole seems a rather bizarre interpretation of Mordechai Gur's words: "For 30 years, from the War of Independence until today, we have been fighting against a population that lives in villages and cities. " Which is not the same thing as Israel targeting civilians. In fact, it seems more like a complaint that the Palestinian fighters hid in the villages and cities. Though, not having access to the original in context, I couldn't say. As for the white phosphorus it is used to create smoke to cover the movements of troops. Cluster bombs AFAIK were not used in Gaza. They were used to attack military positions in Lebanon. Neither of them is was used to target civilians. If the Israelis had wanted to target civilians, the over 10,000 troops they sent in would have killed more than the one civilian per five hundred troops per day that they did kill. The Palestinians and their supporters never have an answer for that one. How does a modern army with that kind of fire power target civilians and yet manage to kill fewer than one civilian each day for every 500 soldiers? Are you gonna run from the question too?
Hamas is Hamas is Hamas. Whether they work for the so called "political" wing or the terrorists wing. Which quote are you referring to that was "made up by an Israeli Jew"? The U.S. Constitution is over 200 years old. It still is our basic law. When we want to change it, we amend it. Bush and Obama notwithstanding, ignoring it doesn't make it go away. Jeremey Greenstock is talking through his hat. http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/322977... " On January 25, 2006, the day Palestinian Legislative Council elections were held, Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar, senior Hamas leader in the Gaza Strip and candidate for the post of foreign minister, stated that Hamas was committed to the ideology of its 1988 charter. He noted emphatically that “the movement [would] not change a single word in its charter,” which calls for the destruction of the State of Israel, and would not become a purely political movement, but quite the opposite, it would continue its policy of “resistance” (i.e., terrorist attacks) (Reuters, Gaza, January 25). The Hamas charter referred to by Mahmoud al-Zahar was formulated during the first year of the previous round of the violent Israeli-Palestinian confrontations (1987-1993). It was edited and approved by Ahmad Yassin, the movement’s founder and leader (who died in a targeted killing in March 2004), and issued on August 18, 1988. It is Hamas’s most important ideological document and as of this writing, copies continue to be circulated in the Palestinian Authority-administered territories. It makes extensive use of Islamic sources (the Qur’an and hadith1) to assure its religious Islamic basis." Greenstock is a politician in the fine tradition of Neville Chamberlain.
"Shaped by our experiences" isn't vague, it is completely meaningless. If the international consensus is that Israel should be destroyed and the Jews should be exterminated by Hamas, do you think the Israelis will go along with it? As I said, and as you have never denied, he is willing to accept a "two-Palestinian state and no Israel" solution. If the Arabs had bided their time in 1948 instead of trying to kill the Jews then and there, there would be no Israel today. There would be a judenrein Palestine with mass graves for the Jews dug shortly after the Palestinians became a majority. Every time a Palestinian leader has been asked whether compensation would be a substitute for the right of return he has refused to even consider it. As it happens, the PNC amended their charter in 1996 (or at least tried to amend it or pretended to amend it). Israel ignored the ambiguity of the amendments, and dealt with Arafat. The result? More Palestinian terrorism against Israel. Of course, the charter isn't the only problem, The main problem is that the Palestinian people don't want peace. When Fatah started to be less genocidal (though still a terrorist group) the Palestinian people turned to Hamas. If Hamas becomes moderate enough to make peace, the Palestinian people will elect the next group of terrorists.
Did I hit a nerve Jake? So sensitive. Enjoy it Jake. "Our race is the Master Race. We Jews are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves." (Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parlament], quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts," New Statesman, June 25, 1982)
Yup, another fake quote.
Without foreign aid, arms, diplomatic protection at the UN, Israel woudl collapse.
In fact, doubly fake. The "Master Race" quote was made up by some anti-Semite. It wasn't in the article in New Statesman, which actually said: "For this reason the government has gone to extraordinary lengths to dehumanise the Palestinians. Begin described them in a speech in the Knesset as 'beasts walking on two legs'." However, the New Statesman article itself was a lie about what Begin had said: "The children of Israel will happily go to school and joyfully return home, just like the children in Washington, in Moscow, and in Peking, in Paris and in Rome, in Oslo, in Stockholm and in Copenhagen. The fate of… Jewish children has been different from all the children of the world throughout the generations. No more. We will defend our children. If the hand of any two-footed animal is raised against them, that hand will be cut off, and our children will grow up in joy in the homes of their parents." http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x... The two-footed animals he was talking about were terrorists who attack children, not Palestinians in general. You'd have to be a really far gone anti-Semite to even think that Begin would say that in a speech to the Knesset. Heck, you'd have to be a pretty serious anti-Semite to think that he would even think that.
The 10,000 figure came from Arafat. The official estimate was 1-2 thousand. Israel killed 18,000 at least. The Sabra and Shatilla was orchestrated by Sharon. The Phalangists were acting ans Israel's Vichy Squad. "Your statement is hate-filled anti-Jewish anti-Israel propaganda." Translation: Facts are anti Semitic.
Yes of all those horrible countries, none massacre as many civilians as Israel does every year.
Israel is Israel is Israel. Whether they work for the so called "political" wing or the terrorists (IDF) wing. The quote of what Meeshall said was made by the author, who is an Israeli Jew. No political leader has said the U.S. Constitution is no loner relevant. The PLO never amended their charter, but Israel were happy to deal with them. “Jeremey Greenstock is talking through his hat.” Melanie Philips is world renowned Zionist hack who is considered a laughing stock, even by Allan Deershowitz. " On January 25, 2006, the day Palestinian Legislative Council elections were held, Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar, senior Hamas leader in the Gaza Strip and candidate for the post of foreign minister, stated that Hamas was committed to the ideology of its 1988 charter." That same year, Meehsal, Hamas leader, said that the Charter was no loner relevant. “Greenstock is a politician in the fine tradition of Neville Chamberlain.” When it comes to the right wing, everyone is either Neville Chamberlain or Hitler.
There is no possibility of Palestinians being in a position to exterminate the Jews in Israel. Re charter, see Meeshal's statement that it is no longer relevant,a s well as his support for 2 states. In what way does she want to destroy the defenses against an enemy? Massacaring civilians is not defense. Kidnapping civilians in not defense. Sieges and blockades are acts of war, not defense.
Gosh, Jake. Of all those horrible places and their horrible practices, none of them kill nearly as many civilians in a year, or attack as many countries as Israel does. See why you can't be considered credible?
"Yup, another fake quote." Translation: Damn, this Hasbara booklet doesn't mention what I'm supposed to saw when his quote comes up.
So the murderers of the cab driver said. That doesn't make it true. What, they'd murder, but they wouldn't lie? I didn't say it was an accident, just that their primary motive might have been robbery. Cab driving is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. Very high murder rate. I have never heard of rape being a matter of honor in Islam. Though the attitudes of much of the Muslim world toward women are appalling The truth is unpleasant enough without embellishing. The fact is that primitive and backward culture, not religion is the reason for these attitudes. The Muslims in the U.S. are fairly assimilated and such incidents are rare here.
Actually the "Master Race" quote t wasn't made up at all. it's a typical ply among Zionists to dismiss any problematic quotes as being fake. camera.org doesn't even try to refute the quotes, simply saying that it is fake and accusing independent Middle East Reporter, Robert Fisk (who exposed Israel's attack on the Quana Refugee camp) as an anti Semite. it's a pathetic effort by camera.org. They try to claim that Begin was talking about terrorists who target children within Israel, but doesn't even to address the statements about about Jews being he master race, or all other races being slaves. Notice also that "beasts walking on two legs" does not appear anywhere in the quote I provided, so camera.org is not even addressing the same statement. Swing and a miss Thom. Begin is also famous for admitting to the world that Israel stated the 1967 war and that Nasser was no threat to Israel.
And the Constitution, according to Bush, was no longer relevant. So the current leader says something about their governing document, big deal. Then the next leader just says "yes it is relevant, and thanks for letting us get into a position to implement it". If it isn't relevant then let them prove it. Amend it. War crimes, nope. Collective punishment, none. Targeting civilians, nope. Are you lying or have you just not been paying attention? You want to go to the families of their Israeli victims and tell them face to face that Palestinian terrorists are no threat? You asshole.
One does not need to read the Talmud. As the Bible says, people should bd judged by their actions.
You'll get over it Jake. Your ego took a battering.
Israeli to English dictionary: Rule #1: In the Middle East, it is always the Palestinians that attack first, and it's always Israel who defends itself. The name of this is "retaliation". Rule #2: The Palestinians are not allowed to kill Israelis. The name of this is "terrorism". Rule #3: Israel has the right to kill Palestinian civilians; the name of this is "self-defense" or "collateral damage". Rule #4: When Israel kills too many Palestinian civilians, the Western world calls for restraint. This is called the "reaction of the international community". Rule #5: Palestinians do not have the right to capture Israeli military, not even 1 or 2. Rule #6: Israel has the right to capture as many Palestinians as they want (around 10,000 to date being held without trial). There is no limit; there is no need for proof of guilt or a trial. All that is needed is the magic word: "terrorism". Rule #7: When you say "Hamas", always be sure to add "supported by Hezbollah, Syria and Iran". Rule #8: When you say "Israel", never say "supported by the USA, the UK, European countries and even some Arab regimes", for people (God forbid) might believe this is not an equal conflict. Rule #9: When it comes to Israel, don't mention the words "occupied territories", "UN resolutions", "Geneva Conventions". This could distress the audience of Fox, CNN, etc. Rule # 10: The Palestinians are always "cowards" who hide behind a civilian population that "they don't care about". If they (militants) sleep in houses with their families, the name of this is: "cowardice". Israel has the right to annihilate the towns where they sleep using bombs and missiles. The name of this is "high precision surgical action". Rule #11: Israelis speak better English than Arabs. This is why we let them speak out as much as possible, so that they can explain rules 1 through 9. The name of this is "neutral journalism". Rule #12: If you don't agree with these rules or if you favor the Palestinian side over the Israeli side, you must be a very dangerous anti-Semite. You may even have to make a public apology if you express your honest opinion.
You have only mentioned the one survivor and provided no evidence that you did indeed talk to him. You presented the wild conspiracy theory that the USS Liberty was spying fro Egypt. Really Jake, get over yourself. Your conspiracy theory crashed and burned and your story about talking to USS Liberty survivors doesn't hold up. You gave it your best shot, but given your ignorance o the topic, you made it hard for yourself.
We aren't talking about a quote from an Israeli mattering in the question of whether to trust Israel. We are talking about whether the foundational document of Hamas, that defines them as an organization, matters in evaluating whether they mean what they say. There you go generating a false quote again. I said "Jeremey Greenstock is talking through his hat." Not Melanie Philips LOL. I'm not right wing. Very liberal in fact. You haven't provided a single cite that he said it was irrelevant. The only thing you have provided in that vein is a meaningless plattitude about "experience".
"Your first sentence is false. It's not even worth reading the rest. " Translation: I haven;t got any talking points to refuse what you just said, so I'll stall for time. You manic spouting of insults speaks volumes Jake I keep cleansing your clock and you are powerless. It's so easy, I almost feel sorry for you.
So Jake, I take it you had no luck coming up with any bases closer to Gaza than Sderot and Ashkelon? What a pitty. And i was led to believe you knew something about the area. have you ever been to Israel or is your name just tongue in cheek?
War crimes, in spades. Collective punishment, non stop. Targeting civilians, all in a day's work "The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.. " Ze'ev Shiff (Israeli journalist and military correspondent for Ha'aretz. ) Terrorists might be a hazard to Israelis, but they are no threat to Israel. Maybe I should tell the families of their Israeli victims not to drive either, seeing as hey have a much greater chance of being killed on the road. What they might need to hear is that their family members dies because of their government's policies. want to go to the families of their Israeli victims and tell them face to face that Palestinian terrorists are no threat?
If Hamas were sticking to their charter religiously, as you insist, the they would not besupporting a 2 state solution and saying they woudl not oppose the Arab peace initiative, which not only recognizes Israel, but offers to normalize relations. I said that Melanie Philips was a Zionist wingnut, She wants to bomb Iran and even supported a military confrontation with Russia offer Georgia. She blames Russia for starting an arms race, while the US not only spends more than then rest of the world combined on arms, but is increasing it's spending. You might be liberal over social issues, but it's a common theme that so called liberals become right wing fanatics at the mere mention of Israel.
"On the contrary, Palestinean terrorists ROUTINELY fire on civilians while they hide behind foreign forces. " On the contrary. That is is Israeli propaganda, which was debunked in Lebanon and Gaza. Amnesty and HRW Claims Discredited in Detailed Report http://news.antiwar.com/2009/07/01/amnesty-israel... Human Rights Watch: Troubling Report http://news.antiwar.com/2009/07/01/amnesty-israel... Israeli 'human shield' claim is full of holes http://news.antiwar.com/2009/07/01/amnesty-israel... What's more, Israel HAS been caught using human shields, both on video and more recently, in reports they used human shields in Gaza. Amnesty: Israeli Troops Used Children as Human Shields in Gaza http://news.antiwar.com/2009/07/01/amnesty-israel... This explains why Israel banned foreign journalists from entering Gaza, in violation of their own Supreme Court ruling. In Lebanon, Israel were found out by reporters on the ground. In defense of limiting press freedoms, former spokesman for the Israeli army, Nachman Shai, claimed that full news coverage helps "the enemy," confuses and "destabilizes" the Israeli public. "Today, Israel is trying to control the information much more closely," he told The New York Times. Israel was intent on controlling public opinion based on its own propaganda, a decision made clear by Aviv Shir-On, deputy director general for media in the Israeli Foreign Ministry, who told the Times during the winter bombardment, "We are trying to coordinate everything that has to do with the image and content of what we are doing…We have talking points and we try to disseminate our ideas and message." We needn't ask what you call yourself Jake, because you have no clue about history or interest in facts.
I understand Eitan, You've run out of argument sand i have defeated your propaganda. There's no shame in admitting you're wrong.
Oh, please. I even found the probable source of the "quote" an anti-Semite named Texe Marrs. The earliest posts that show in a search of google groups with "master race" Jews and "divine gods" is in 2006. http://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&... The earliest hit on google blogs is in 2005. The point was that someone made up the "master race" quote and pasted it on top of the (also false) quote about "beasts walking on two legs". Camera probably doesn't address it because that article in Camera was in 2004. Which is probably well before your "Master race" "quote" had been invented, or before it had been attributed to Begin. The original source of the quote, Texe Marr, doesn't attribute it to Begin. Fisk is a well known anti-Semite. Where are you getting "independent"? BTW, how exactly is one supposed to "refute" a fake quote? Since the original doesn't exist, you can't prove a negative. They looked at the minutes of the Knesset session that the actual New Statesman article cites. As for refuting the "master race" quote. The burden is on you to prove it is real, since you are making a positive assertion. Go find a copy of the New Statesman article instead of just blindly copying and pasting bullshit from hate sites.
Probable source Thom? What you're really trying to say is that the quote appeared on an anti Semitic web site, and because it exists on an anti Semitic web site, that's supposed to prove that it's a fraud. Olderst trick in the book Thom and it's a fail. "The earliest hit on google blogs is in 2005. " Interesting but irrelevant. an Texe Marr wasn't the source of the quote anyway. Fisk is a well knows independent, award winning journalist who has exposed many of Israel's crimes, which by definition, makes him anti-Semite. He holds more British and International Journalism awards than any other foreign correspondent. The burden is not on me to prove it's real. I provided it, along with the time and place it was made. No one has been able to debunk it. You asked me how you were supposed to refute the. take your own advice and find a copy of the New Statesman article and prove it was fake. Until you do, there is no reason to dispute the fact that Begin made this comment. I know it sucks, but Begin was a terrorist after all, who boasted about murdering Count Bernadotte, so he wasn't the most stable guy. Though he does personify the archetypcal Zionist.
Couple of things. First: Provide a cite for him saying that. Second. So what? You have a really bad habit of quoting irrelevant statements by irrelevant people to try to make your point. It doesn't matter what the current Hamas leader says about the Hamas Charter. All that matters is that Hamas refuses to change it. If it were really no longer relevant, then they would have no reason not to change it. If he says it is no longer relevant, but refuses to change it, he is a liar. She wants to take away Israel's right to attack Hamas terrorists. She wants Israel to let the terrorists freely kill Israelis and have the Israelis do nothing to stop them if the terrorists choose to attack from civilian areas. No civilized country can continue to exist if it is not prepared to defend itself from barbarians. Any act of war can be an act of defense if it is against an aggressor. When the Allies bombed Germany that was an act of defense. When Israel attacked Gaza, that was an act of defense. A successful one too. Since then the attacks from Gaza have dropped considerably. The Palestinians are weak, but weakness doesn't make you the good guy. Here is a hypothetical question for you. A Palestinian terrorist has an AK-47, and lots of ammo. He also has a baby strapped to his front, another to his back, and a bomb on a deadman switch that will blow him and the kids to smithereens if he gets shot. He starts walking around Israel shooting at people. What do you think the IDF should do about it?
War crimes: name one. Collective punishment: be specific (blockade is to keep out weapons, not a punishment, the attack on Gaza was to damage Hamas's ability to attack Israel, not a punishment). Whenever credible evidence is available that shows a civilian was targeted, Israel prosecutes the person doing the targeting. Ze'ev Schiff doesn't speak for Israel. He was making an insane interpretation of a quote from an Israeli general. A threat to Israelis is a threat to Israel. An attack on one Israeli is an attack on Israel. More Americans are killed in car accidents in a month than died on 9/11. Al qaida was no threat to the U.S. as a whole, but they murdered 3000 of our citizens. A country is under no obligation to let a group of terrorists attack it just because the terrorists can't kill all of the citizens. Are you insane?
Galloway the hero!!
Terrorist hero
Israel are despicable, which is why their reputation has fallen like a stone since the Gaza assault. Like Ze'ev Shiff said "The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets." Thanks for stating the obvious Thom. " Israel troops speak out on Gaza war. Troops fighting in Israel's war on Gaza were urged by their commanders to shoot first rather than worry about killing civilians, a document from an Israeli activist group shows" Mordecai Gur said that" "Since 1948, we have been fighting against a population that lives in towns and villages." White phosphorus was used on civlians to burn them. Cluster bombs AFAIK WERE not used in Lebanon and seeing they are anti personnel weapons that kill indiscriminately, it cannot possibly be argued that they were used to attack military positions in Lebanon. If you want to attack military positions, you use laser guided bombs. If you want to make an area uninhabitable to civilians, you use landlines or cluster bombs. "If the Israelis had wanted to target civilians, the over 10,000 troops they sent in would have killed more than the one civilian per five hundred troops per day that they did kill." Here's an answer for that one. The fact is that Israel were afraid to send in that many troops for fear of incurring casualties. The last time they sent in that many troops, over 100 came back in body bags, which is bad PR before an election. "How does a modern army with that kind of fire power target civilians and yet manage to kill fewer than one civilian each day for every 500 soldiers?" it does so selectively. Because Israel has time on it's hands – the international community is doing nothing to pressure them to behave – they can take their time and kill slowly, so that they can claim it wasn't a massacre.
Israel has always targeted civilians. In Lebanon and Gaza, civilians were the mass of casualties, The Norwegian doctor who was posted i Gaza said there was no question that Israel were targeting civilians. "In fact, the IDF has on many occasions let terrorist flee because they were hiding behind civilians." Please link to one such occasion. "Or are you suggesting that the Hamas Jihadis are all civilians, maybe?" All Israelis are member of the IDF are they not? Therefore, you could argue that Hamas rockets are always striking military targets.
"War crimes" I'll give you a couple. Amnesty: Israeli Troops Used Children as Human Shields in Gaza Targeting hospitals, schools and Mosques The unnecessary destruction of Palestinian property and the ransacking and bulldozing of homes. "Collective punishment" A blockade is an act of war. if the purpose fo the blockade was to keep out keep out weapons, then they woudl not be preventing building supplies like cement, food and medicines. As a reporter and a journalist, one woudl certainly hope that Ze'ev Schiff does not speak for Israel. he reports what he sees and what he investigates. He was making a statement based on his own investigations. More Israelis are killed in car accidents in a month than die from terrorist attacks. You are right, a country is under no obligation to let a group of terrorists attack it just because the terrorists can't kill all of the terrorists. If Israel wanted to protect it';s citizens, it would have a) observed the ceasefire, rather than deliberately violate it and b) agree to an extended ceasefire rather than argue that an extended ceasefire was no in Israel's strategic interests. Cast Lead was not a response to defend Israelis. It was more than 6 months in the planning and carried out according to pre determined strategic goals, whoever they were.
More war crimes: 1) Israeli forces prevented Red Cross or other medics safe access to assist seriously wounded civilians. 2) The Israeli chapter of Physicians for Human Rights reported with “certainty” that Israel violated international humanitarian law by attacking medics, damaging medical buildings, engaging in indiscriminate attacks on civilians, and delaying medical treatment for the injured. 3) In addition, Israel rejected pleas by international humanitarian agencies by closing border crossings days at a time, denying access to food, medical supplies, fuel, and water sanitation equipment. 4) The airstrikes have not only destroyed every police and security office of Gaza's elected government, but have killed and injured hundreds of civilians; at least one strike reportedly hit groups of students attempting to find transportation home from the university.
That simply proves the degree of Islamo-Fascist hostility to Israel. Kind of like the Twin Towers… which actually DID collapse. For the same reasons.
1) Huh? You think these Arabs are just "liars" so maybe they didn't really mean to murder the person they actually DID murder? They confessed to everything! They are PROUD of their evil deeds. There is nothing to defend here. 2) Do some research on Sheik al Hilaly of the Lakemba mosque. He is (the now former) chief religious Islamic authority in Australia. He has stated that white Australian women deserve to get raped and that Moslem men who do this are honorable and innocent men. Check out the Islamic court in Pakistan that specifies forced sex (i.e. rape) for FAMILY MEMBERS as a punishment. Oh, the Islamic Judges themselves perform this "punishment". Check out Kanan Makiya's book, Cruelty and Silence. Many more references. 3) Rare, correct., but not reviled or abhorred. Still honorable. There have been Islamic honor killings within the famliy in the USA, as well. And in Europe. Lots of Muslim rape in Europe. In Australia, Muslim rapists, typically Lebanese or Pakistani, TELL THEIR VICTIMS that this is an Islamic act. It's happened many times there. Time to face facts.
I have referred to several Liberty survivors. Shingo just can't read. Your problem. Please continue to attack me. The more you do, the less credibility you gain for yourself. I welcome it. Please continue to attack my facts. Continue? How about starting? You are full of ad hominems, without references, never a fact. Keep it up, Shingo. MondoBrain.
Shingo. Your first sentence remains false. Your postings continue to be boring and non-factual. You are more irrelevant than ever. Congratulations.
In the rules of war, aiming at military targets in civilian surroundings is dependent on weapons accuracy. This is why Saddam's SCUD attacks on Israel were heinous; they are notoriously inaccurate. This is also the reason that Israel is so very reluctant to fire on Palestinean Terrorists who hide behind civilians. Just because the Pentagon is somewhere inside the USA doesn't make it acceptable to nuke the USA just because there is a military installation in there somewhere.
Shingo, ignoring you. You are beyond help. You couldn't read a map if it was spelled in baby language.
I'm ignoring you Shingo. These things, like others, have been posted a zillion times. You ignore facts, are incapable of logic, lie pathologically. You are a waste of time. MondoLies is your home…
In Black September, there was no "official estimate" of Arabs killed by other Arabs. I have never heard any such number such as you claim. You are lying. Do you have a source? Same for your Lebanon numbers. You couldn't even spell Phalange if I hadn't mentioned it. You probably never even heard of them before. Shingo, you have no references for your claims. Mine are easily confirmed. You are a liar. As always. A waste of time. Go away.
Shingo, your Pilger-like sources are not credible. Like you. But let's have it your way, OK? The world is flat. Happy now? Idiot.
Shingo, your statement is a flight of fantasy. Can you state a number for, say, 2005 and compare it for Arabs? Never a fact from Shingo. You are a blithering fool. Keep it up. MondoBigot.
I'm ignoring you. Like everyone else.
Shingo, Do you have anything to add to this discourse? Or are you just a knee-jerk antisemite?
Fisk is a well-known loon. Like Pilger. Which is why you "quote" them. Lies by ShingoLiar. Typical. Everything fromyou is like that.
Shingo. Reference your numbers. Otherwise, you are just a lying antisemite. As always.
As I said, robbery may have been their primary motive. They may have intended to kill the cab driver, but that doesn't mean that their motive wasn't robbery. As for why they would lie, you said it yourself. They were proud of killing him. So when they get out, would they rather say "I am a revolutionary who killed a Jew" or "I am a thief who killed a cab driver". Which claim is more likely to get them acceptance in Palestinian society? If robbery was their primary motive and murder just a way to avoid being identified, they had motive to lie. The Mufti in Australia said that the woman was to blame, not that rape was a matter of honor. Still a reprehensible position, but not one confined to Islam. We are not that far removed from a time when many a rapist in the U.S. was found not guilty or simply not prosecuted at all because the woman was dressed "provocatively". I don't know about the Pakistan court. Have you got a link? Actually when such incidents happen here they generally are reviled and abhorred by the Muslim community. I can't speak to Europe but I think the way the U.S. assimilates people helps us here. I understand in Europe, groups are more insular.
How do you know whether Texe Marr was the source of the quote? The point of the "earliest hit on Google Blogs" and on the groups is that before that time, no one mentioned the quote. A quote that was supposedly from an article in 1982. That demonstrates that the quote was made up later and simply attributed to an earlier source. No, you didn't provide the time and place it was made. You provided a lie about the time and place it was made. "Shingo says that he blows goats for nickels and his mother fucks sailors for money" New Statesman January 9, 1982. See how easy it is to make up a fake quote and a fake attribution? So should people believe that you admit to bestiality and that your mother is a whore until you go find a copy of the New Statesman and force them to read the whole thing so you can prove a negative?
Not a war crime. Both hospitals and ambulances lose their immunity when they are used for military purposes. The Palestinians use marked ambulances as troop transports and weapons transports. Thus, no immunity. The Palestinian violations of civilized standards harm the Palestinians more than the Israelis. Palestinian civilians die because the Palestinians make it impossible to distinguish civilians from terrorists until it is too late. Palestinian civilians die because Palestinians make it impossible to distinguish between real medical support and Palestinian soldiers in ambulances. Their mosques and homes get bombed and demolished because the Palestinians use their mosques and homes to store weapons. Are you starting to see a pattern here? All the things that the Palestinians are complaining about are the result of their own refusal to play by the rules.
Humanitarian hero. The terrorists are Israel. Facists and apartheid at that.
Provide a cite for the Physicians for Human rights. They probably just took Hamas's word for it that they (Hamas) weren't using the medical immunity for military purposes. The border crossings get closed in response to Palestinian attacks. Often attacks on the border crossings. Again, the Palestinians choose to have their "police" and "security" officers function as terrorists to help attack Israel. They are no more civilians than the SS or the Gestapo. The Israeli attacks killed under 500 people who weren't later positively identified as members of terrorist groups and over 700 people who were later positively identified as members of terrorist groups. Find me an army with a better kill ratio than that in an urban warfare situation of similar scale.
The Black September estimate came froj your own source. It stipulated that the 10,000 figure came from Arafat only. The Lebanon numbers are factual. Your references arew lacy links to Wikipedia, who's accuracy is unconfirmed. I know you want me to go away, because I pop you propganda bubble every time, but no,. I'm going to stick around. I'm having way to much fun with you.
No Pilger is a journalist who Ziinist hacks like you don't like.
Google blogs is no proof of anything Thom. I'm surprised that you would be wasting our time with that stupid argument. The quote WAS from an article in 1982 yes, so how does that demonstrate that the quote was made up later? You're not thinking stright. I did provide the time and place it was made. "Shingo says that he blows goats for nickels and his mother fucks sailors for money" Juvenile response from someone running out fo ideas. Have a nap thom and try again. You're capable of much better than this trashy effort.
Both hospitals and ambulances lose their immunity when they are used for military purposes. Except that this accusation is based on Israeli heresay. The same Israel that banned foreign journalists from entering Gaza (in vilation fo it's own Surpreme Court Ruling) becasue it did not want the world to see what it was up to. They even admitted it iunashamedly. In defense of limiting press freedoms, former spokesman for the Israeli army, Nachman Shai, claimed that full news coverage helps "the enemy," confuses and "destabilizes" the Israeli public. "Today, Israel is trying to control the information much more closely," he told The New York Times. Israel was intent on controlling public opinion based on its own propaganda, a decision made clear by Aviv Shir-On, deputy director general for media in the Israeli Foreign Ministry, who told the Times during the winter bombardment, "We are trying to coordinate everything that has to do with the image and content of what we are doing…We have talking points and we try to disseminate our ideas and message." Israel learned from the 2006 Lebann disaster that it's lies have a limited shelf life when independent journalists are on the scene. So don;'t bore me with your crap about who is immune and ambulances being used, because the only pattrern here is that Isreal lies, admits that it lies, and you are blindly and slavishly using Israel's version of events to make your assinine argument.
If PPhysicians for Human rights took Hamas's word for it, it woudl be Israle faut, who ignored the ruloing of their own Supreme Court and blocked all foreign journalists from entering Gaza. As the Foreign Press Association stated, as the Palestinian death toll in Gaza increased horrifically, condemning Israel's restriction of the press: "The unprecedented denial of access to Gaza for the world's media amounts to a severe violation of press freedom and puts the state of Israel in the company of a handful of regimes around the world which regularly keep journalists from doing their jobs." Again, the Palestinians choose to have their "police" and "security" officers function as terrorists to help attack Israel. Juvenile adn assinine argument. How's this? Israel chooses to have it's policiticians and political leaders functions as terrorists to help attack Palestinians and before that, British troops. You ZIoinist wind bags keep forgetting that Israel was founcded on terrosim by terrorist ahow went on to be elected leaders of that terrorist state. You fanatics stil think you can get way with calling the people you don't like terrorists, whike embracing terrorism throughout Israle's history. Fer crying out looud, what other country in the world officially celebrated the 60th anniversary of a terrost attack in it's own name? What other polticla leader, apart from Israel's current PM, descibed the 911 attacks as a good thing? Isreal killed at least 1,300 people, 400 of them chiudlren. There are no indepnedet reports as to which of the victims were identified as members of terrorist groups. It's very easy to kill someone and simpydecide that they are a terrorist. Your arguments are getting worse by the hour and are beyond pathetic.
"Can you state a number for, say, 2005 and compare it for Arabs? " Yes. Thni of the numbers killed by Arabs and double it. That wil give you the number of Palestrinians Israel killed that year. How's it feel to be losing he argument Jake? No one believes you. And while you repeatedly spew hatred for this site, you just keep comming back for more. It must be tough having such an addiction.
"Shingo, your Pilger-like sources are not credible. " Translation: I can't refute your argument, so I'll jump up and down and declare them not credible. Yeah, that'll work. I woinder if anyone believes me?
You have only referred to ONE Liberty survivor, and of course, you failed to prove any discussion took place. It's pretty obvious you didn't speak to him at all. I woudl attack your facts if you provided any, but all you give us are conspiracy theories about US war ships spying for Egypt, so I can only attack those cospiracy theories. Yes, I wil keep it up. It's too much fun.
"That simply proves the degree of Islamo-Fascist hostility to Israel." Trsnaltion: Another point I can't refute, so I'll opt for a lot of hot air and ad hominems. Why isn't it working?