I attack the Washington Post all the time. Well here's a great piece by Howard Schneider and Samuel Sockol of the Post about Israeli novelist Alon Hilu, who has made the Nakba a central theme in a historical novel about Palestine/Israel. Emphasis mine:
The first immigrants "came from Europe with an attitude," Hilu, 37,
said in an interview at his apartment north of Tel Aviv. "It was kind
of a typical meeting between colonialists and natives. There are
aspects of colonialism in Zionism. You can't deny that."…
An opening quote from the Koran sets the tone: "We destroyed them and
their people. . . . So those are their houses fallen down because they
were unjust."
The backlash, while deferential to Hilu's right to publish what he
wants, reflects the mood of a public that has become increasingly
impatient with criticism of the country. Prime Minister Binyamin
Netanyahu has argued that — counter to Hilu's vision — reconciliation
will come when Palestinians stop regarding Jews as interlopers and
acknowledge Israel as the rightful Jewish homeland. Members of his
government have advocated measures that would require Israel's Arab
citizens to take oaths of loyalty to the Jewish state and prohibit them
from commemorating Israel's independence as the "naqba," or the
disaster.
"Self-criticism is okay, but sometimes it is beyond the redlines,"
said Ben-Dror Yemini, a columnist for the Maariv newspaper whose
articles helped trigger a campaign against the book after it was
awarded the coveted Sapir Prize. "When Jews or Zionists are depicted in
this way, it is going from criticism to delegitimization and demonizing
the whole idea of the Jewish state."
Alon Hilu? Never heard of him. 37-year old novelist? You mean unemployed dreamer seeking publicity for his new book. Historical novel? Another work of fiction that Jew-haters will quote as fact. Just like MondoLies.
Give it a rest Jake, honestly… Contribute or fuck off…
What I don't get is the complete denial of reality that many aspects of Zionism entail. Isn't it patently ludicrous to think that Ashkenazi Jews are really, totally and unadulteratedly, the descendants of the original inhabitants of ancient Israel/Palestine? Accepting the mythology that they are isn't just smoothing over a difficult spot, as in some nationalisms (e.g. in the US, for instance, where we simply don't talk much about having exterminated the natives, but everyone knows we did). Zionism as promoted as a true 'return to the homeland' involves a patent flight from rationality – that is, a complete and total acceptance of what seems to be a ludicrous and self-evidently incorrect proposition.
Let me clarify a bit: what I mean is, if Zionism merely preached that the modern-day Jews had moved to Palestine and, through a combination of purchases, conquest, and appropriation of land, had taken over what they now call their homeland, that would seem perfectly fine. (I mean in a logical, not moral, sense.) But to claim that these white-looking Europeans are really the descendants of Jews who moved away from ancient Palestine (I am dodging the question of the alleged Roman expulsion, for which there really isn't any evidence) and that they are 'returning home' is as crazy as the Mormon idea that the lost tribes of Israel ended up in upstate New York.
If I believed in demons, it would seem appropriate to consider Israel of demonic nature. There is more than one problem with the Israel-Palestine Conflict. I understand that "the whole idea of the Jewish state" is a fundamental issue that confused and confounded hopes for peace from the very beginning. I understand that the horrific experience of the second world war propelled the growth of the nation, for what were seen as good reasons. I understand that the Israeli assumption of authority to determine who, exactly, is a Jew lends it the appearance of authority. But, with reference to your recent post about "an elitist tea party," I didn't get the memo about Jews being the only people in America who pay taxes. “The United States and Israel signed a Memorandum of Understanding in August 2007 committing the U.S. to give Israel $30 billion in military aid over the next decade. This is grant aid, given in cash at the start of each fiscal year. The only stipulation imposed on Israel’s use of this cash gift is that it spend 74 per cent to purchase U.S. military goods and services. The first grant under this agreement was made in October 2008, for FY2009, in the amount of $2.55 billion. To bring the total 10-year amount to $30 billion, amounts in future years will gradually increase until an annual level of $3.1 billion is reached in FY2013. This will continue through FY2018." (counterpunch/christison/03.05.09.) That's $7 million per day. Operation Cast Lead 2009 resulted in ~$1.9 Billion damage to Gaza.(Haaretz) In 2006, the damage to Gaza was estimated at $46 million.(Guardian UK) Some 100 Palestinians have been granted special admission status to the US – Christian religious refugees. "We took out Saddam" because he was considered responsible for the suicide bombers, according to blogging by US military personnel, not all of whom are happy with our new adventure in Afghanistan.
How many trillions of dollars to wage war; how many trillions of dollars to reconstruct a devastated Iraq, where electricity and water still are not consistently available? Now we are ramping up again in the fight against the "Muslims" in Afghanistan. Aid to Afghanistan and Pakistan already exceeds that allocated for Israel. And still the drums are beating for war against "unholy" Iran. Religion is an individual choice; how did the US come to be fighting a religious war against the Muslims? Where does it end? The Israel's Project 2009 Global Language Dictionary (Newsweek) talks about the "major public relations challenge in America and Europe" required to keep stalling the Road Map for peace. It says Israel must be safe. A few statistics are footnoted: 28 deaths by rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israel 2001-2009. Includes Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers; 1000 injuries from rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since 2001, including Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers. Israel is "safe." Latest totals from IfAmericansKnew.com:
Israel has "the most moral army" in the world – now preparing to defend itself against charges of war crimes. Meanwhile, does anyone think the US is safer? When did 'Morality hand in hand with Money' become the American Way of War? Only the people of America, united, have the power to stop these wars.
Benny Morris: "The Palestinian rejection of any Jewish state has not merely been the recurring theme of the conflict, but the dominant one. Thus, in the 1930s, the Palestinians rejected a proposed two-state solution that would have created a Jewish state in less than 20 percent of Palestine. In the 1940s, the Palestinians rejected the United Nations partition plan which created a Jewish state on less than half of the arable land in Palestine. From 1948 to 1967, when Israel had no presence in Gaza, the West Bank or East Jerusalem, the Arabs created no Palestinian state. After the 1967 war, when Israel accepted the land-for-peace formulation in UN Resolution 242, the Arab world, including the Palestinians, rejected it. In 2000, when Israel supported a plan put forth by President Clinton that would have created an independent Palestinian state with a capital in East Jerusalem comprising all of Gaza and virtually all of the West Bank, the Palestinians rejected this too, instead commencing a campaign of bombings that left 1,100 Israelis dead and, not incidentally, 4,000 Palestinians dead as well." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12469368242390403...
Arab violence and the inability to accept A Jewish State is the problem. When the Palestinians are able to accept that Israel is a reality and 5 million Arabs are not "returning" there, peace will be possible.
Sure, thedhimmi ~ all it takes is for the Palestinans (Christians excluded, evidently) to accept a Jewish state. Got borders?
Gilbert It's total lunacy and anti-science. So-called Jewish history has been so thoroughly debunked it makes cold fusion look respectable. a great article if you missed it: http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel
Gert is spot-on. Jake's post is almost third-grade level, as if he repeated the third grade. If you call anti-Zionists Jew-haters, then this website is waaaay above your IQ level.
Very nice post, margaret…but I remain as skeptical as ever regarding Israel's supposed domination of US foreign policy and economy. We shovel money and weapons at these monsters from hell because it serves US interests to have a hegemonic, racist, US-friendly bulwark in the Mid East. Israel does lots of nasty (and illegal) chores for its benefactor…propping up other apartheid regimes, cutting lucrative deals with this or that genocidaire and so forth. I don't find the evidence that the US launched the Iraq massacre (it was not a war) on behalf of Israel, persuasive, despite the latter's obvious delight at the spectacle of a million dead arabs. Ultimately, the US will decide if WE want to add to our disgusting resume of criminality by attacking Iran or allowing israel to attack Iran. At the moment, that doesn't seem in the offing, though obviously that could change. Nor can Obama's drone-aircraft massacres of unarmed civilians in Afghanistan and Pakistan be blamed on Israel, reprehensible as they are.
TD: the leaders already have accepted the reality of Israel. The problem is that your guys keep moving the goal posts. Now Israel has to be a "Jewish state." Meaning that you guys are ethnically cleansing Israel (and "Judea" and "Samaria") using my taxpayer dollars. Your side will always keep the clock ticking (and furiously building illegal settlements) until your influence on the US Congress reaches its limits and the world community imposes a timeline and pre-1967 borders on you. NATO troops will be moved in to secure the peace and tear down the barrier. That's when we'll have peace.
Benny Morris Tell me why I should be impressed by the opinions of Benny Morris.
His mom let's him use the laptop when he's good.
It doesn't matter at this point about who is a Jew and if they're authentically Jewish. Although if Hollywood made a movie about Zionist history it would be a smashing success! Better than the DaVinci Code one wonders? But, honestly, I am not holding my breath for that one.
You are regarded by our wise Richard Witty here as an infantile dissenter who only makes the problem worse. Richard's a self-proclaimed Jewish Zionist. Please direct your comments to him specifically.
For Jake, who's ignorance knows no bounds, from Wikipedia: "Alon Ḥilu (Hebrew אלון חילו) (born Jaffa, Israel, June 21, 1972), is an Israeli novelist. His first novel, Death of a Monk (Xargol, 2004), is based on a historical blood libel against the Jews in Damascus, Syria, and offers an original homosexual interpretation for the historical events. The novel was shortlisted for the prestigious Sapir Award in Israel (2005), and was awarded the Presidential Prize for literature (Israel, 2006). Death of a Monk has been translated into English (Harvill Secker,London), French (Edition Du Seuil, Paris), Greek (Metaichmio, Athens) and Dutch (Ambo Anthos, Amsterdam). The new novel of Hilu, "The House of Dajani" (or "La Maison Dajani"), is a fictional retelling of the history of early Zionism. The book, published in Hebrew in February 2008 by Yedioth Sfarim, is being translated into several languages and won the Sapir Award in Israel (2009). It was recommended by Israeli President Shimon Peres as "an extraordinary book". During 1987 to 1988, Hilu wrote radio plays for the Israeli Radio. During the 90s, two short stories by him were published in literature magazines in Israel: "The Biblical Zoo in Jerusalem" ("Iton 77", 1992) and "Last Seen" ("Moznaim", 1993). Hilu earned a degree in dramatic writing at Tel Aviv University, studying under Israel’s leading playwrights, such as Yehoshua Sobol and Shmuel Hasfari. His plays, "The Wedding" and "The Day of the Dogs" were produced in theatre festivals in Israel, and were both translated into English for the Harvard-Radcliffe Dramatic Club. Hilu also holds a degree in law, and in addition to writing practices Intellectual Property law as a legal counsel at an Israeli hi-tech company. " Yup, just an "unemployed dreamer seeking publicity". Right, Jake. Engage brain before posting next time, OK?
"I didn't get the memo about Jews being the only people in America who pay taxes." And the American people never got the PNAC memo either.
Where's the Palestinian Kent Brockman ("The Simpsons") when you need one? "I, for one, welcome our new overlords." (And his "I've said it before and I'll say it again, democracy simply doesn't work" applies too.)
Especially since human progress requires that one note the Indian Wars in the USA preceded by scores of years the Nuremberg Trials of the Nazi war criminals, new world recognition of a new minimum standard for acceptable sovereign state conduct. To argue otherwise is to sit in the dock with Goering and smirk it off as Might Make Right, and more deeply, is to agree with Hitler's view of social and racial darwinism. If Israel can get away with what it's been doing all these years, there's been no humane progress at all and all those Jews died for nothing in the Shoah, as well as the goy dead during WW2, what 60 plus Million?
Margaret's comment was most excellent, I agree. I really don't get the theory that access to cheap oil was significant as a factor either in hitting Iraq, or rubber-stamping Israel and funding it all these years. Nor do I think attacking Iran (supporting an Israel preemptive attack on Iran) would be for fundamental US interests. Back in 1948, the state department thought the contrary, but Truman ignored them, and acted without caring for US basic interests on his own, sabotaging the US delegation to the UN and taking advantage of Marshall, a great patriotic soldier and humanitarian to boot. The only theory that suggests Truman recognized the self-declared state of Israel (He nixed "the Jewish State" and substituted "Israel" in his unilateral letter of recognition) for American basic interests is that he desired to beat the USSR to the punch within the developing Cold War. The real reason, I conclude, is that Truman needed Jewish moneybags for his whistle stops to defeat Dewey, and he knew Jewish vote was also important in 5 states, and, as he said, he had no Arab domestic voters to worry about. The importance of oil has only grown since Truman's state department argued against the Zionist pressure carried by his old lowly jewish (failed) business partner against obvious US interests. When foreign policy is so totally dictated by domestic policy, you have a problem. Upshot. In 1973 US citizens waited in line for sky-rocketing gas at the pump. This will happen again. The US folk will be no wiser. And the next time a new version of 9/11 attends the dance, the US folk will be no wiser. Five more Israelis will dance atop a van and be quickly sent home free. The oil companies will be worse off, as they knew they'd be; we will have people actually thinking that oil was why we attacked Iraq, and why we need to attack Iran directly or by Israeli proxy. Nothing could be further from the truth. And it sure ain't because we want to spread democracy. Chaney and Shrub, both, just like Truman, were easily convinced they were acting righteously, all told they were the next Cyrus of Persia in different ways. Thought they'd have their cake and eat it too. And they did. But we Americans have paid their tab. Where is a goy leader?
Morris does sound like Htler there. "Hitler's concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history. He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America's extermination – by starvation and uneven combat – of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity." P. 202, "Adolph Hitler" by John Toland
thedhimmi: Contrary to what's often believed, the Zionists weren't really interested in partitioning either (isn't that evidenced still today?). Three quotes: "To partition," according to the Oxford dictionary, means to divide a thing into two parts. Palestine is divided into three parts, and only in a small part are the Jews allowed to live. We are against that." "The Jewish people have always regarded, and will continue to regard Palestine as a whole, as a single country which is theirs in a national sense and will become theirs once again. No Jew will accept partition as a just and rightful solution.' 'If I had been faced with the question: a Jewish state in the west of the land of Israel in return for giving up on our historical right to the entire land of Israel I would have postponed the establishment of the state. No Jew is entitled to give up the right of the Jewish nation to the land. It is not in the authority of any Jew or of any Jewish body; it is not even in the authority of the entire nation alive today to give up any part of the land'… …'this is a standing right under all conditions. Even if, at any point, the Jews choose to decline it, they have no right to deprive future generations of it. Our right to the entire land exists and stands for ever.' All three are the words of David Ben Gurion, respectively made in 1947 (he had then accepted partitioning, but clearly still had reservations about it), in 1937 (when the Yeshuv was already in existence) and the latter of unknown date. Also, how does the lack of Nation building on the part of the Arabs/Palestinians justify Zionist ethnic cleansing of the region?
I think the whole issue is silly. I have no standing to take over various "homelands" that my ancestors might have occupied at some time in Europe. The proper object of concern, I think, are the common interests of Israelis and Palestinians who live in Palestine/Israel *now*. The vast majority cannot be described as interlopers at this point. They were born there. American Jews are *not* Israelis, and should not have any more standing than any other American in determining the best policy for the US to take.
li, I don't disagree it serves hegemonic US activity. Powers historically used the Jews as an outcast group, for trade, for money-lending and then, when 'convenient,' as scapegoats. I feel they are being used again by those who profit from war given energy by religious feeling. I don't mean to make scapegoats of the Jewish people; rather I think the ideology of Zionism was useful to Bush and his cohorts, as it was intended to be useful for the English. Jews and non-jews profit; stock-holders and pensioners profit; people employed for the war effort profit, settlers given grants and living expenses for a year profit. The profit comes from hegemonic activity and the primary method is through war. I have little doubt that a primary motive in attacking Iraq was oil, and the oil would have been controlled by specific people with gain to specific people (and I don't think that worked out quite as planned.) But I don't think the US could have been taken into such an aggressive war without some other reason to support the obvious motive of profit from oil – people need a cause and I think Zionism was it. Particularly if it could be said that Saddam 'sent' suicide bombers into Israel, it was cause for war. The refugees are Iraqi-Palestinian interpreters, US allies. It just so happens that religious refugees are a special category. The comment made about them was by someone who considered it a personal commitment, which wasn't explained further, but recent comments have included comments to the effect that jackboots are ok when you are dealing with Islamists. And most recently, after one person said the US has no national interest in remaining in Afghanistan, others have been proclaiming that war is hell, yeah, but you've got to fight to the death against "the ideology", the alternative is living under Islam. This has come from several different people, and I don't frequent Christian Zionist or military Zionist blogs. Yuck. Remember Congress? New president, same old Congress. Gotten any indications that good old Cheney was still trying to command the CIA? Remember Iran-Contra? Remember the Patriot Act and the drones, which Israel intended to make acceptable to International Law? I don't have any specific people in mind, other than the Zionist lobbies in general, who do what they do. But, again, Obama is one man, in the executive office, and he must work with the other branches of state, as well as his party, to achieve anything. The people in Congress have established ties, and I think those ties bind the US and Israel together very tightly.
Hi citizen Very interesting stuff. I guess by now I've digested so many theories for the rationale of the Iraq assault I really don't know what to think anymore and am inclined to reserve judgement on the matter. It does seem however a bit implausible that the largest untapped source of oil and what George Kennan referred to as "a stupendous source of strategic power" didn't figure prominently in the Bush/Blair designs on the region. Yes, as to truman. Gore Vidal mentions the considerable allure of jewish campaign contributions–probably illegal–prior tp the declaration of israeli statehood in his fine introduction to israel Shahak's book (one of the great eye-openers for me!) http://books.google.com/books?id=avh6dkSop0EC&...
Alon Hilu is a pretty well known and succesful Israeli writer. The problem is not with him, but rather with the fact that most of the posters here slime him and other Israelis who can be both Zionists and recognize Israeli wrongdoings and criticize the govt. at the same time.
Those who argue that the ends justify the means often do end up "sound[ing] like Hitler".
That was Morris kowtowing to the readership of the Paymasters, of course…
You all make me laugh. This "author" rewrites history with "an original homosexual interpretation" of events? And you take a FICTIONAL NOVEL from someone like this and pretend you can mine it for… facts? MondoLaughs!
How much is a barrel of oil today? How many billions are the Petro-Sheiks pulling out of your noses to fund their flying gold bathtubs and harems? How many postings on this highway robbery have you made? Thought so….
Hilu will probably benefit more from the publicity of this scandal than he would have with the prize-money. And that would be good for the cause, as more Jews, both here and in Israel, need to read the book.
The only one "sliming" Hilu here is Jake. I don't think that Jake acknowledges that one can be a Zionist and recognize Israeli wrongdoings. I consider Zionism a racist ideology but I certainly understand that sometimes it takes a series of small steps to realize and reject the inherent racism, particularly for those who grew up surrounded by the ideology in Israel, where it is treated as a norm and any questioning of the norm can lead to ostracism from the group..
"Alon Hilu? Never heard of him. " Maybe it's becvasue you don't read books Jake? Obviously those who do read books have read herd of his and decided to award him the Sapir Prize.
The problem is that from day 1, the Zionists were nevre going to accept the limitatinos fo the borders they were given. Ben Gurion told the world that the founders would verbally accept the partition, but later ignore it when he said in 1936. “The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.” One of the most ardent Zionists, Israel Zangwill, stated as early as 1905 that: “Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ….. [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us.” (Righteous Victims, p. 140 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7-10) It's not that Arab's have the inability to accept A Jewish State, it's that Israel demands the Arabs acept this while being denied their own. It's that the conditions fo a Jewish state are that Israel steals land and the Arabs should accept that.
The only nakba was Jewish expulsion from Arab lands far more Jews were expelled than Arabs voluntarily left Israel
"Also, how does the lack of Nation building on the part of the Arabs/Palestinians justify Zionist ethnic cleansing of the region?" More importantly, how are they to achieve nationa building when Israel keeps bombing what they've built?
Your ignorance is mind boggling Jake, but then again, you are a racist, facist biggot. "How many billions are the Petro-Sheiks pulling out of your noses to fund their flying gold bathtubs and harems? " Most of those dollars sirt in US bank accounts as per a deal that the US struck with the Petro-Sheiks in the Middle East. If the Petro-Sheiks were to even think about withdrawing that money, they would find themselves overthrown or worse within 24 hours.
RE: Ta'anit Tzedek – Jewish Fast For Gaza I don't think I'm going to last until sundown! I'm just not going to make it. Perhaps If I were not so svelte… I'm so hungry! I'm so hungry! I'm so hungry! And I need some coffee. PS. I'm just a slob like one of you…just a stranger on a bus…trying to make my way home…back up to heaven all alone…nobody calling on the phone…except for the Pope maybe in Rome!
Please ignore my earlier post. I don't know what came over me. Perhaps it was an acute episode of self-pity. I can do this. Yes I can! Yes I can! Yes I can!
margaret writes: "But I don't think the US could have been taken into such an aggressive war without some other reason to support the obvious motive of profit from oil – people need a cause and I think Zionism was it. Particularly if it could be said that Saddam 'sent' suicide bombers into Israel, it was cause for war. " I dunno. I suppose these rationalizations were part of the kitchen sink we threw at the pubic, along with yellowcake, al qaida, Saddam's chemical weapons and on and on. I don't think defense of israel figured very prominently in the rhetoric used to justify the war. if anything, I think Bush/Cheney sensed that the US public would be pretty chilly to the idea of wasting money and lives in support of Israel. Just my sense. I think you're closer to it when you point to the general mood of racism and xenophobia regarding the Islamic world driving US policy and public support thereof. But Arabs are just the enemy-du-jour and Islam, an easy target. When I was growing up, demonization was not of religious fundamentalists but rather, the "Godless communists" of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, who were regularly presented as a grave threat to 'our way of life.' Preposterous in retrospect but presented at the time in seriousness and swallowed (as usual) pretty uncritically by the public.
Hang in there, Jésus! I'm dying for a cup of Earl Grey myself!
Most Jews left Arab/Musim nations out of fear of 'blowback' due to Israeli aggressions such as the 'Lavon Affair' and Israel's 1956 invasion of the Sinai. FROM WIKIPEDIA: (excerpt) The Lavon Affair refers to the scandal over a failed Israeli covert operation in Egypt known as Operation Susannah, in which Israeli military intelligence planted bombs in Egyptian, American and British-owned targets in Egypt in the summer of 1954 in the hopes that “the Muslim Brotherhood, the Communists, ‘unspecified malcontents’ or ‘local nationalists’” would be blamed.[1] It became known as the Lavon Affair after the Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon, who was forced to resign because of the incident, or euphemistically as the Unfortunate Affair (Hebrew: העסק ביש, HaEsek Bish). Egypt retaliated against its Jewish community….Israel admitted responsibility in 2005 when Israeli President Moshe Katzav honored the nine Egyptian Jewish agents who were involved.[3]…. SOURCE – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis FROM WIKIPEDIA: (excerpt) The Suez Crisis, also referred to as the Tripartite Aggression,[3] (Arabic: أزمة السويس – العدوان الثلاثي ʾAzmat al-Sūwais/Al-ʿIdwān al-Thalāthī; French: Crise du canal de Suez; Hebrew: מבצע קדש Kadesh Campaign, or מלחמת סיני Sinai War) was a military attack on Egypt by Britain, France, and Israel beginning on 29 October 1956.[4][5] The attack followed Egypt's decision of 26 July 1956 to nationalize the Suez Canal, after the withdrawal of an offer by Britain and the United States to fund the building of the Aswan Dam, which was in response to Egypt recognizing the People's Republic of China during the height of tensions between China and Taiwan.[6]…. SOURCE – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis
Hallellujah, the WaPo is acknowledging the existence of the word Naqba. Give them a few more decades and they'll acknowledge the catastrophe itself.
Well, I am feeling like a "good German." There are are a fair number of hits, since 2003. (Don't mean to monopolize the thread, but…yuck!) The following is pretty much verbatim what various comments said, except for the bit about "Yes, war is hell, it's not pretty, but…" It took me awhile to believe what I was hearing, I guess because I just didn't want to believe it. "The time has now come for us to either give in and give up to ‘Islam’ and its aims of global domination and conquest, or unite as civilized people of the world and rise up and stand together in defense of our homelands for the protection of our wives, children and the future of our people." http://www.busseymilmin.com/ 01 February 2007 Knights Templar – 21st Century Christian Crusaders “Gods Army on Earth” democracynow.org/2009/5/6/the_crusade_for_a_christian_military AMY GOODMAN: The former prime minister of Afghanistan, Ahmad Shah Ahmadzai, has called for an investigation into allegations that US soldiers are trying to convert Afghans to Christianity. He said, quote, “This is a complete deviation from what they are supposed to be doing.” (quote)LT. COL. GARY HENSLEY: "The Special Forces guys, they hunt men, basically. We do the same things as Christians: we hunt people for Jesus. We do. We hunt them down, get the hound of heaven after them, so we get them into kingdom. Right? That’s what we do. That’s our business." ~… the Drones~ huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/us-army-conveniently-lose_b_164493.html Senior Research Director for the Military Religious Freedom Foundation; author of "Liars For Jesus: The Religious Right's Alternate Version of American History" Posted February 6, 2009 | 02:20 PM (EST) After I wrote a piece here back in December exposing the U.S. Army's participation in the Christian reality TV show Travel the Road, the organization I work for, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), was contacted by ABC News Nightline. The last three episodes of the second season of Travel the Road were filmed in Afghanistan, with the aid and participation of the U.S. Army. Multiple violations of military regulations, Department of Defense regulations governing embedded journalists, and the laws of Afghanistan were evident in these episodes of the series, which airs on the Trinity Broadcasting Network, and, according to a Travel the Road publication, is viewed by more than three million people worldwide. cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/index.html +digg.com/world_news/Army_Soldier_Says_He_Was_Force_Fed_Christianity_Sues_DOD, see other links In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization. "I think it's utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional," Hall said. Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military. truthout.org/article/military-evangelism-deeper-wider-than-first-thought By Jason Leopold t r u t h o u t | Report Friday 21 December 2007 Soldiers at Fort Jackson Army Base pose with their rifles and Bibles. A Hamas suicide bomber posing with a rifle and a copy of the Koran. The Military Religious Freedom Foundation says the two photos show how the infiltration of fundamentalist Christianity in the US military is starting to mirror Islamic fundamentalism. For US Army soldiers entering basic training at Fort Jackson Army base in Columbia, South Carolina, accepting Jesus Christ as their personal savior appears to be as much a part of the nine-week regimen as the vigorous physical and mental exercises the troops must endure. That's the message directed at Fort Jackson soldiers, some of whom appear in photographs in government issued fatigues, holding rifles in one hand, and Bibles in their other hand. web.archive.org/web/20070102131440/http://www.busseymilmin.com/ Frank Bussey, director of Military Ministry at Fort Jackson, has been telling soldiers at Fort Jackson that "government authorities, police and the military = God's Ministers," Bussey's teachings from the "God's Basic Training" Bible study guide he authored says US troops have "two primary responsibilities": "to praise those who do right" and "to punish those who do evil – "God's servant, an angel of wrath." Bussey's teachings directed at Fort Jackson soldiers were housed on the Military Ministry at Fort Jackson web site.
doubtless, you've had a look at this one: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/weekinreview/22...
This serves as a good indication of why I was able to repress my fears, I think – I remember reading the followup. articles.latimes.com/2003/oct/16/nation/na-general16 General Casts War in Religious Terms By Richard T. Cooper, Times Staff Writer October 16, 2003 WASHINGTON — The Pentagon has assigned the task of tracking down and eliminating Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and other high-profile targets to an Army general who sees the war on terrorism as a clash between Judeo-Christian values and Satan. Lt. Gen. William G. "Jerry" Boykin, the new deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence, is a much-decorated and twice-wounded veteran of covert military operations. From the bloody 1993 clash with Muslim warlords in Somalia chronicled in "Black Hawk Down" and the hunt for Colombian drug czar Pablo Escobar to the ill-fated attempt to rescue American hostages in Iran in 1980, Boykin was in the thick of things. followup 15 links at NYT topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/b/william_g_boykin/index.html "The Army said in October (2005) that it had taken action against General Boykin, but it declined to provide details or to say what rules he had violated." Countersurgency, the current policy, is conceived of as a "long war." The basic idea seems sound, in that it involves investment in the infrastructure and development of resources for the people, with a focus on women and children, "green energy", renewable resources, etc. Except it seems that should be more properly a job for the UN, and individual countries, reinvesting their resources back into the people. It's not something the US can do on its own, and not something that should be imposed on countries, particularly if it requires changing the countries' culture. Except that a great many people continue to believe that Islam is the enemy, despite Obama's words to the contrary. Except that the current democratically elected president of Honduras was recently overthrown in a military coup which, "rumor" has it was carried about by personnel trained and equipped by the US military. Except that billions now are being diverted to development in other countries, while the unemployment rate in the US is at 9.5% and expected to keep rising for the near future. And except that a recent Foreign Policy.com cover had this cover: ~ JIHAD'S PHANTOM MENACE Meet the New Osama Bin Laden ~ Meet the man who is Islamabad and Washington's new Public Enemy No. 1. Forget Osam Bin Laden; he's not why we're in Afghanistan. Terrorism is still the number one enemy, and the terrorists are all Islamic.
All nationalist movements are racist to some degree, and there's nothing special about Zionism in this respect. The Palestinian national movement, which desires full control of all of the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan under Islamic law, is just as racist given that non-Muslims will be treated as second class citizens in such a state.
The Nakba got it's name from the Ethic cleansing and massacres of 1948 by Israeli terrorist groups. The Jews voluntarily left from most Arab states.
Unrelated events that are common knowledge.
The opposite
Something's very, very wrong. I don't think the sun is going to set! It's overcast here, but it just doesn't seem to be getting dark! What should I do?
I'm not an expert on this, but my impression is that Jews that left Arab states left for a wide variety of reasons. For example, after the Lavon Affair I believe that Egypt expelled its Jews. Israel has confirmed the Lavon Affair. There is also Naeim Giladi who claims that Jews were terrorized into leaving Iraq with a lot of help from the Zionists. http://ia341207.us.archive.org/0/items/Ben-gurion... Some also left for the better life, or to help build the Jewish "utopia". The Palestinians left to avoid being slaughtered. Just for information purposes – all Jews who were refugees have a right to return home – even if it was due to Zionist terrorism.
NEWS FROM THE HOLY LAND: "what a bastion of civilised western values israel is", 07/16/09 (EXCERPT) Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox protestors clashed with police near Highway 1 in the capital Thursday night, hurling stones at security forces and wounding at least 10 officers lightly. At least six protestors were lightly hurt. Forces at the scene detained at least 15 rioters and held another 20 for questioning, as ultra-Orthodox protestors blocked Highway 1 in Jerusalem, near the Beit Israel neighborhood. Police used water cannons to disperse the crowds and reopen the road. Rioters hurled stones at mounted police and used red lasers to blind officers. Elsewhere, dozens of haredim hurled firecrackers at policemen. Later Thursday, dozens of rioters attempted to block Bar-Ilan Road, while protestors on Yosef Karo street poured oil on the road, causing a mounted police officer to slip…. ENTIRE POST – http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/what-a-bas...
Thank God, it's finally getting dark. I hope that I did not alarm too many of you with my misplaced concern about the sun not setting.
Bon appétit! This cup of Earl Grey is for you, Jésus!
Palestine Think Tank: Susan Abulhawa – Does Israel Really Have a Right to Exist?
Two videos from Gilad Atzmon: Gilad Atzmon: Israel will implode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MLhvIjCJrQ Gilad Atzmon on Hedonistic warriors http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MLhvIjCJrQ (High Definitiion available at youtube)
Until Jews start showing acknowledgment, remorse, contrition and atonement for the last 150 years of heinous Jewish crimes against the rest of the human race, we can be certain that Jewish Zionist atrocities will continue in Paleste as will massive Jewish criminality in the USA: Hate-Filled Curriculum of Radical Yeshivas.
What distinguishes Zionism from most nationalisms is that the national group is not clearly defined. Israel's Law of Return is a mess as a result, having to invent categories such as 'child of a Jew' and 'spouse of a Jew' to allow people not technically Jewish under that law to make aliyah. The labour and revisionist leaders only wanted to populate Israel with their communities, and they didn't think much of Jews from Arab countries or those who intermarry. For reasons we know all too well, they had to turn to the Middle East and otherwise loosen the requirements. And of course Zionism demanded Jews become the majority in Palestine even though they weren't. Just as Jews and Palestinians are two nations in one territory, so do white nationalists believe they are a nation separate from others in the state.
Wow, what were you searching google for when you came across that gem? Proselytizing Jews, I've heard it all now. In one post you talk about how Jews are elitists and think they are above the 'gentiles' now you are claiming they are a result of rabid forced conversion to Judaism. your hatred for Jews makes you look like an idiot!
1 Israeli soldier 1,400 Palestinian prisoners 1,072 total Israelis dead 6,348 total Palestinians dead If Israel was targeting civilians how can they have a 6:1 kill to death ratio? especially when they are using F-16s against Kazzam rockets? something is fishy…..
Who said anything about rabid forced conversion to Judaism? Tel Aviv University scholar Shlomo Zand, argues in his book, "When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?", that Judaism was an evangelical religion that actively sought out new adherents during its formative period. Many have converted to Christianity and Islam, so why not Judaism? Do you have somethign against the Jewish religion Yoni?
If Israel was targeting civilians how can they have a 6:1 kill to death ratio? Let's take a look at the number of children killed. Isrelil 123 Palestinian 1,487 That's a 10:1 ratio. Clearly he Israelis are targetting children.
No there has never been enthnic cleansing by Palestinians, only of Palestinians.
Right you are edwin2, Giladi's "The Jews of Iraq" is the answer to this false equivalence of Nakba to Sephardi/Mizrahi expulsions. http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/jewsofiraq.htm http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/jewsofiraq.htm
The flight of Jews from Arab countries wasn't a crystalline process and there were many factors involved, and Zionist agents were interested in driving Jews from these countries. However, you can't deny that looting Jewish assets to pay for the wars with Israel made sense to the Arab regimes (and the Suez invasion was the direct cause of the expulsion of Egyptian Jews, although the Lavon affair played a role). Zionist agents had no direct role in Libya, Tunisia or Algeria (far as I know). We also can't disregard the legacy of colonialism and how it affect inter-communal relations in these states. The Brits themselves proposed a transfer between Palestine and Iraq. Of course I agree Jews should be able to return to Arab countries. In fact, you can't be against Zionism and think otherwise.
Morris is echoing what American society thinks but doesn't say. We prefer to whitewash the Indian genocide. However, much as there's a political solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, there's also a solution to the conflict with the native Americans, although much like the middle east one it involves Americans reducing their own privilege.
Zand's hypothesis is only partially backed up by modern genetic research. Many Askenazi Jews share uinique markers (called haplotypes) that distinquish them from Europeans. Some of these haplotypes are shared with modern Palestinians (but interestingly, not with people on the Arabian Pennisula). But there is a second group of haplotypes that are shared with Central Asians, which is consistant with Zand's and originally Arthur Koestler's idea that the Khazars converted to Judaism and after their empire collapsed, migrated west into Eastern Eurpoe. Wonder why there are so many red headed Polish Jews like Dershokowitz? — it seems that the Khazars had red hair. Now that is interesting.
Palestinians meaning Jews of Hebron in the 20s. Hundreds of thousands more Jews were expelled from Arab lands than Arabs voluntarily left Israel
Everything is a Jews fault to you people. Even the persecution of Jews…
The topic is Israel – a regional superpower. It is amazing how when the topic is Israel, people tend to talk about Israel – isn't it. You'd think we would talk about something else. It's been 60 fucking years of Israel getting a pass. It's over. [sarcasm]The most amazing thing about this site is that even we Jews are getting into the act. You can't expect the goy [connotations that are possibly pejorative] to say the right thing with we Jews leading them astray. Even Jews are getting into the persecution of Jews! [/sarcasm] I don't buy the Jews as the winner of the olympic gold medal in persecution. You're living on past glories. You will need to come up with some other purpose in your life.
All those idiots who point to Hilu's winning the "Sapir Prize" have apparently never heard of Hilu nor of the "Sapir Prize", either! You guys are still funny!
Ha! Shingo is now trying to be funny! The US is gonna immediately overthrow the House of Saud if they move their money outside the USA? Their money is not all in one basket… Hoo Hoo!!!! ROTFL
"Abbas looks at an offer of virtually the entire territory of the West Bank, internationalization of the disputed holy sites in Jerusalem and (according to him) the right of return, turns it down and says "the gaps were wide"." http://www.bitterlemons.org/previous/bl290609ed25... Israel simply has no partner for peace.
"Similarly, the Palestinians will continue to insist on a solution to the refugee problem that is based on the relevant stipulations of international law, which give Palestinian refugees a right of return. By the same token, East Jerusalem is occupied territory. It must either become the capital of a future sovereign Palestinian state or, should Israel insist that the eastern and western parts be unified, Palestinians must have the same rights in all the city that Israelis do." http://www.bitterlemons.org/previous/bl290609ed25... 5 to 6 million Palestinians are never "returning" to Isreal. The Palestinians want a 2 state solution. 2 Arab states.
It's unfortunate that blatant Jew haters like you can't accept that Jews are not responsible for the failure of Muslim States.
I fasted until sundown. Noon was the most difficult.
No Arabs volurarily left Palestine. They were enthically cleansed. Benny Morris and Illan Pappe wrote about it.
Why your ficatin with homosexuality Jake? Is there somethign you need to tell us? Not that there's anything wrong with that.
"have apparently never heard of Hilu nor of the "Sapir Prize", either!" Neither have you. What's your point? Then again, you evidently don't read books.
"Their money is not all in one basket" Like you would know where it is. Of course, the House of Saud has not taken their money out of the US, so you'll never know. When did you find out you were gay Jake?
Interesting to consider to what extent, and for how long, religious thought has driven foreign policy and military actions in both the US and Israel. Perhaps the dedication to ideas that seem 'fundamentalist' now have been more active in previous eras, considered less remarkable, and given less notice in consideration of the individuals in control of policies and activities of the US – speaking in terms of daily news and analysis.
You are dissing Weiss's and Lovelies's allies. These are the Jews that believe the exact same thing weiss believes.
As soon as Thor is back in prison, we'll all reform.
The alternatives to democracy haven't seemed workable. Your comments,
however, always make sense to me.
Should Jews be allowed to returned to the Arab lands you claim they were ethnically cleansed from? If the answer is yes, how can you deny palestinians the right of return? And why is there absolutely NO MOVEMENT for jews to return to lands they were forced from? Could it be that no such forced expulsions occurred? And why did the Council of Iranian Jews tell Israel to go to hell—that they had zero intention of migrating to israel, despite lucrative enticements and were proud to be iranian Jews, the largest population of Jews in the Mid East outside israel? Any more lies to dispense?
It's unfortunate that tribalist zombies like dim equate Jews with Israeli Nazism.
very sad but very true…this victimhood shtick is becoming synonymous with jewish identity. It's sad and idiotic…but is makes sense for israelis in particular, who are cultural zeros and have always had a severe inferiority complex relative to diaspora Jews. Military barbarism leavened with phony victimhood has become their raison d'etre.
I would have voted for that if I gave a fuck about voting.
I think a lot of Jews have been forced to go to Israel by Arabs and by Zionists. There's no absolute cause for the exodus of middle Eastern Jews. Although it's pretty annoying when we're expected to rubber stamp the nakba and the permanent absence of a Jewish community outside Israel, I can't blame most middle Eastern Jews for being reluctant to return to Lebanon, Iraq or Libya now. But if Poland and Germany can have a restoration of Jewish life, any place should be able to.
And to be clear Andrew believes that suicide bombings are justified as he stated clearly before.
anti-semite
And to be clear Andrew believes suicide bombings are justified as he previously stated
Zand's hypothesis does however support the argument that Palestinians are not just Arabs, but share the same ancestors are the original Judeans.
"Abbas looks at an offer of virtually the entire territory of the West Bank" You mean the entire territory of the West Bank that remains outide the settlements, with roads that divide West Bank into 3, that is depreived access to the best water sources and aquifers, and the caveat that whatever Palestininan state emerges has no control ove rair land and sea access or rights to self determination. That's what you mean right thedhimmi?
The concept of a shared Capital is as old as the 2 stet solution itself. The status quo is gong to reaults in a single state in any case, one in which Jews will become a minority or else have to impose aparthid in the formal sense.
"And to be clear Andrew believes that suicide bombings are justified as he stated clearly before. " Please provide the quote Eitan. Surely you would't be lying again.
I'd engage with this if there weren't so many tedious discussions where you repeat the same line over and over.
ah what the hell, I'll try it just the once I said it's justified for the occupied to answer the occupier back in the same language. If you don't like suicide bombings, don't constantly invade Palestinian towns and put them through a death lottery or bomb them from the air. Before you did, no one was blowing themselves up.