Seham responds to my post about the question of whether Jews agonizing over their Jewish identity is a sideshow to real engagement on Israel/Palestine:
You know how much I like forwarding news items
along, and invariably at some point a Jewish activist well say or do
something that I find particularly moving (this week it was Naomi Klein and Max Blumenthal)
and so when I email these things out I get a lot of flack– there are two "nice jerks" who
always respond and ask me why I insist on having Jews frame and
humanize the cause for me. I don't. It's a resentment that some
Palestinian activists have because as I said before: what Palestinians
say is insignificant unless a Jew of conscience signs off on it first.
Those same expectations don't apply to Tibetans, we don't expect the
Chinese to sanctify their cause nor do we demand that the government in
Sudan sanctify the plight of the people in Darfur, but like I said
before, the white man expects/demands that the Palestinians have an
intermediary and it is most palatable to the white man that the
intermediary be a Jew. So, some of us resent the fact that while we
are capable and willing to tell our narrative, nobody really wants to
listen.
I don't really mind the process that Jewish activists have to go through until they get to the point where they are standing on the right side of humanity and the law in regards to the Palestinian issue, while it isn't necessarily about "you" per se, you can't be ignored. There is an apartheid regime in Israel and they claim to act on behalf of world Jewry and they use something that was collectively traumatizing to world Jewry in order to gain support from world Jewry.
“Do you know why we Palestinians are famous? Because you are our enemy. The interest in us stems from the interest in the Jewish issue. The interest is in you, not in me. So we have the misfortune of having Israel as an enemy, because it enjoys unlimited support. And we have the good fortune of having Israel as our enemy, because the Jews are the center of attention. You’ve brought us defeat and renown.” –Mahmoud Darwish
Related posts:
- ‘She’s Jewish’ Should Be as Meaningless Politically as ‘Her Favorite Color is Blue.’ But It Isn’t
- Having Spent Hours with Obama, Chuck Hagel Tells the Israel Lobby We Need Justice in Palestine or Our Foreign Policy Is Meaningless
- Mearsheimer Sees Signs of Glasnost in Israel Lobby
- Seham: Two cheers for the American Jews making pilgrimages to Palestine
- Seham: ‘I’d rather hear that the oppression is religious’
{ 72 comments }
Jewish pawns, turncoats and traitors, working for the enemy.
In Hub of the World (Zionist Conspiracy), I refer to the Jewish Media-Bureaucratic-Academic Complex, which I view as more dangerous and powerful than the Military Industrial Complex about which Eisenhower worried. Because of the Complex, Jewish self-delusion is a big problem even among the anti-Zionists: [NYRB] Amos Elon (1926–2009).
This goes to more than just the I-P issue. American society is conditioned by mass media to look to Jewish sanction for a lot of things. Jewish tribalists in mass media see to it.
For Eitan this is a 'clash of civilisations issue'. Every Arab is the enemy and every Arab ought to be treated as the enemy. But what Seham says is true. Disappointing really, especially seeing as this has meant a Dalai Lama figure hasn't been able to develop – no figure head for the Palestinian movement.
Don't compare terrorists to Dali Lama
Seham, Do you agree with the headline, that a Palestinian's voice IS of no consequence? I don't agree to that in the slightest. Why would you disempower yourself so?
Jews forever feed off white guilt (while claiming they invented guilt in the first place). The Palestinians need to start doing the same; they sure have accumulated enough good reason as far Americans are concerned.
You are the enemy of humanity! Eitan Bentool, go kill a palestinian child, go burn someone's orchard, go destroy someone's house…go have a "good Jew" day.
Chauncey, I'll ask you to use my proper name. Calling me Bentool, cockroach, bot, and other names are just ways of dehumanizing Jews. I won't even honor your next statement with a response.
Typical anti-semite.
The Chinese call the Dalai Lama a terrorist
Wow. It took you a whole week before you started calling people anti-Semites
"Disappointing really, especially seeing as this has meant a Dalai Lama figure hasn't been able to develop – no figure head for the Palestinian movement." There are many Palestinians waiting to step into this role, the usurping entity doesn't allow them to do so. Remember how they went after Mustafa Barghouti, how they beat him at the checkpoints, arrested him when he tried to travel back and forth, etc.
chinese are wrong in that case
But you just did….
You're right Richard. He should call up Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer and see how many decades it takes before they give him a meeting.
Yes Richard. The mainstream media doesn't care about the Palestinians and when the MSM does choose to cover a story about Palestinians that accurately conveys the Palestinian pov, it is usually done so by a Jewish journalist or reporter. I only care that the Palestinian pov is heard, whether it is told by Phillip or Adam or whether it is told by a Palestinian: whatever it takes for people in this country to hear about the crimes going on in our name with our tax dollars. To point out the obvious is not disempowering to me.
I am a member of several groups, some of which are Jewish anti-Zionist. We have events and speakers, often trying to include Palestinians who are also active. Your example that a Tibetan doesn't need to have a Chinese to affirm his viewpoint is not relevant. Tibetans have had less success in getting their story across to the Chinese people than Palestinians have (recently). If Chinese did begin to speak up for the Tibetans the situation might change. Jews (at least I and my colleagues) don't intend to "speak for" the Palestinians, but we strongly object to organizations like ADL and AIPAC claiming to speak for us. Since most of US public take the ADL's positions as speaking for all Jews, we have to be very public and forceful in our objections. We want to work in solidarity with Palestinians.
Maybe Eitan, but I hope you're not going to deny that there's a lot of exploitation of non-Jewish past guilt by Zionists. Why for instance do you think in Europe Germany is now Israel's staunchest ally? I can assure you it's not just a question of atonement…
Germany is no ally, they are in favor of Palestine arab state in Jewish land. And guess what if they feel guilty after what they did, then good!
loser
We Jews have special antennae that pick up anti-semitism. And guess what this website is a hotbed. Cant be denied antisemites are drawn to websites like this. Like it or not. You see the world through your anti-Jew prism so you really you can't see when people say things that are racist and hurtful when it meets your agenda.
Speaking of anti-semites…
Jews own the media, anti-semetic
Go away you troll. You add nothing to this blog other than the usual 'antisemite'-card rants. Fucking tool.
Imbecile.
Coward
Jews own the media is an anti-semetic statement. Again dimishing Jews humanity last times snakes and cockroaches this time trolls and tools
Calling me Bentool, cockroach, bot, and other names are just ways of dehumanizing Jews. Thank you for that microcosmic window into the collective Israeli psyche. Eitan takes a personal insult directed at him as an attack on all Jews, as the vast majority of Israelis and their supporters in the West take any criticism of Israeli policy or action to be a criticism or attack on all of world Jewry.
They said Jews spread out in settlements like cockroaches, Jews are hasbara bots on these forums etc…
People don't say "the Jews are hasbara bots", if that's what you're insinuating. Accusations about being a "bot" arrive because of the ideas one communicates through his or her comments and the often boilerplate method of communication of those ideas, not because of his or her ethnicity or religion. There are plenty of Jews who frequent the MondoWeiss comment threads that are never referred to as "hasbara bots" by anyone, as well, I'm sure, as non-Jews who are referred to as "bots". As for the "cockroach" link, I think you might be jumping to conclusions on that as well. I don't know the comment about settlers you're directly referring to, but "cockroach" is a common insult in the United States (if a little dated), so if it's hurled at you, it's not necessarily done so in a direct link to an epithet used to describe settlers in the West Bank.
Maybe you are right. If so I apologize.
Eitan Ben – I would like to engage you in a respectful dialogue that does not denigrate into name-calling or intellectual dishonesty. More to the point, I would like to be certain I follow your rules to not be anti-Semitic. If I tell you that I believe Operation Cast Lead killed Palestinian women and children with white phosphorus weapons, and I believe that Israel committed war crimes, am I anti-Semitic in your world view? And if so, do you believe that Israel deserves an exemption from the world community comparing Israel's conduct to the white supremacy of South African apartheid, and . . . if so . . . under what circumstances. And final question, if any of what I've said here is anti-Semitic (given that my wife and children are Jewish) please provide an intellectually honest reason why.
I heard an interview with Madeline Albright on NY state public radio today. She was talking about Obama's speech from Cairo. She said that the most difficult aspect of such a speech is the multiple audiences that are each looking for their voice, buzzwords and irritations. She said that he nailed it, which I agreed. I think THAT might be an element of your frustration with getting heard, Seham. I've dialogued with MANY Palestinians, some of which have ended at me getting shouted at. (Thankfully, others have ended at "we hear each other. Thanks for listening.") I get that you and others feel an urgency to be heard, and a desparation that your plight is falling on deaf ears. You might not be aware of how political venting is perceived here though. What you might think of as urgent and obvious, is often perceived as polemic, offending, dictating. Its happened here often. Rather than even try to understand what I or the few other liberal Jews here reason, you call names, and you reject the idea that individuals CAN hear you, and still incorporate some of the reasonable views of Zionists. But, without question, getting yelled at makes it that much more difficult to be heard, as getting shelled or nail-bombed makes it very very difficult to hear the urgency and demand for justice for Palestinians (but not for Israelis). Thats what I mean by a pendulum swing. You get your justice, but its at another's expense, not a mediated mutual reconciliation. And, then it goes the other way, and continues and continues.
On the multiple audiences theme. I wonder if you are attempting to play comments to non-compromising Palestinian audience as well as American and Jewish and Israeli. That is a very wide range. I like Obama's approach of appealing to moderates much more.
eitan, you need jesus!
Just don't make up names like Zionazi, USrael etc and don't call Jews cockroach, bots, snakes, trash. I make a distinction between anti-semites and radical leftists and even people that mean well for the arab people and are well balanced
Why would I need a dead false prophet?
eitan ben shlomo can't possibly be jewish. I think he is a clone with a bad mutation – speaking as a jew but not being one. Do you guys get the feeling that seham is somehow more jewish than eitan in a way that counts? shall we declare her an honorary jew or does a real rabbi has to bless that? as for eitan, nothing much will help, I'm afraid. Must be all that khazari blood
This I would say is a perfect example of Anti-semitism. I'm not saying all posters on here are but here are some clear signs. 1) Dehumanizing "the bad" Jews IE monkeys, vermin, clones, bots, mutation, etc. 2) Only the "good jews" are real Jews 3) consiracy theories about Khazaria, Jews not real, racial eugenics about Khazaria etc.
Nothing that you said is an accurate description of what I said.
Whites demand a Jewish mediator? I think Jews demand the position. I think Jews buy their own publicity, and many whites just haven't been paying attention. The situation will probably change for whites, but not for Jews.
1.) a clone is one who is identical with the pre-cursor. Since you admit no variation, you qualify. However, I'll give you that the problem may be more in the software than the hardware. 2.) Bad jews can be ex-communicated, can't they? at least you admit to being one. Is rehab a possibility? 3.) I kind of like Khazaria. You should too – probably much more exotic and interesting than the reality….at least in your case. None of which changes the statement I made that seham appears to be a better jew than you are. How do I know? connections…..
1) A clone to you is any Jew that stands up for himself and his right to the Land of Israel 2) Excommunication is rarely if ever done. Even neturei karta haven't been excommunicated 3) Khazaria is fine by me. It's the theory that Ashkenazim are all Khazars and therefore not real Jews as used as a tool to deny us our rights that disturbs me
What was different, and in what way.
Do you consider Israeli concerns of any consequence? You've stated that you are primarily concerned with Palestinian experience and needs. That makes sense to me. Peace is possible to the degree that each listen to the other.
Every Jew that disagrees with the racist forms of dissent are called hasbara bots. But, Eitan should learn to ignore more than he does, and should learn to question his own comments as much as he questions others.
I find that you are not only observing what the mainstream media presents, but that in your language you have internalized it, become a victim in your heart rather than a full human in your heart. In almost all cases, it is walking victims that harm others. The remedy to that injustice is in your heart, not in the world as much. The world is what it is. You don't have have to accept its definition of you.
And so are you in calling the Palestinians terrorists
My anti-Semite antenna works slightly differently – I replace the word Jew with Muslim (or any other label) and if I find it offensive, it's anti-Semitic. If it accuses Jews in general (or Israelis) of something only a few of them are guilty of, it's anti-Semitic. If it calls for their murder, just for being Jewish (or Israelis), then it's anti-Semitic. I point out quite a few of the anti-Semitic comments here and I report quite a lot too. So do many of the other posters
That is true. I've heard that Mustafa Barghouti has raised his profile in the US, which is good. He would be an ideal figurehead, not tainted by association with Hamas nor Fatah.
Everybody Gentile who disagrees with Israeli policy de facto or de jure is called a Jew-hater, i.e., "anti-semite." Anyone can look up the hasbara talking points and recommended verbal tactics. If the shoe fits, wear it. Eitan: "We Jews have special antennae that pick up anti-semitism." I read about that in an old illustrated medical journal. The antennae are specific nose hairs; although sometimes in more hirsute Jews the those long thick specialized hairs are located on the ear lobe or back.
And of course every Jew who disagrees with Israeli policy as stated is called a "self-hating Jew." Perhaps this species of Jew is suffering from in-grown special antennae? I will check out what the AMA handouts say.
I know, I know
speaking of goy-haters
Anyone can check out online who owns the main MSM, and who holds the key slots therein. Draw your own conclusions, dear readers.
Jews are taught from birth to be walking victims, no matter how privileged they are or how powerful they become in the diaspora and no matter how powerful Israel becomes. And yes it is walking victims that harm others. Once in awhile a Jew breaks through this guided traumatic neurosis, whether vicarious or not, and realizes actual reality.
Especially when you have a dead false God and history.
Yeah, a regular Code Pink guy, a goy Finkelstein yet!
Sylvia is not the coward. You are. Her eyes are open, your's are closed.
Whenever you don't agree with someone and cannot effectively refute their comment you label them an "anti-semite." This includes your responses to those who don't even do name-calling at all, not even your lame labels such as moron, imbecile, coward, etc. And, sorry, judging by your comment aggregate to date, your special antennae for ferreting out anti-semites is very defective.
Seham said that many Palestinians are very frustrated because nobody will listen to them at all unless what they say goes through a Jew. These Palestinians would like to directly reach the average Americans, who are 98% Gentiles ( and most are not Evangelical end-timer Zionists), or at least reach their representatives. He specifically yearns for an independent white receptor audience willing to listen fully to the Palestinian narrative without going through a Jewish vetting screen. He doesn't want to have his hugh moral narrative reduced to a side show by Jewish screeners taking up most of precious time stewing in their Jewish identity issues or sporting large Zionist motes in their eyes and companion plugs in their ears. Your response to what he said makes his point. Seham should listen more closely to Phil regarding the power of the Lobby (& enablers, MSM) because it is the reason the Palestinian narrative has not come through to "the white man" for scores of years.
Yes. Seham needs to realize more fully that nobody gets anywhere in US politics unless they tow the Zionist line. He needs to know how US political campaigns are financed, and how the white Americans he wants to reach with the Palestinian narrative are not focused on a single ethno-centric issue but actually are so assimilated they view themselves as Americans first.
Both seek to dismiss the other. Better that each listen.
Actually, most sabras are taught the opposite. What happens when someone breaks through the victim psychology, is that they are in a position to CHOOSE, to choose how to speak, to choose how to act, to choose how to apologize if that is honest. Its when people are told, and believe, that there is no other choice but to shell civilians for example, to resist in a particular form if at all, that their CHOICE is stolen from them.
Or he could listen to me, to gain insight into what kind of communication WOULD be effective at reaching people.
This blog is about progressive Jewish feelings. Palestinians really don't count here. It's Phil, Adam, Max Blumenthal, Antony Lowenstein etc. etc. All the non Jews that come here come to hear what the progressive Jews tell them to believe. It's really pitiful.
Way wrong. Palestinians are at the heart of this website. Compassionate, progressive Jews make it possible.
All of it.
"I am a member of several groups, some of which are Jewish anti-Zionist. We have events and speakers, often trying to include Palestinians who are also active." Hi Sylvia, please don't misunderstand: I appreciate support from Jewish solidarity groups and most (if not all) Palestinians do so as well. I am not blaming or criticizing Jews at all for what the MSM does since I rely on people like Phil and Adam to convey the messages from Palestine that the MSM would likely ignore if not for the fact that our movement is growing with Jews who work alongside us and who have more credibility than we do. Some might say that my criticism of the MSM (or the white man…whatever) is misdirected because they are controlled by Zionist lobby groups but I disagree. The U.S. has been able to get away with murder, literally, all over the world and in the U.S. for a very long time before there was a Zionist lobby group. "Your example that a Tibetan doesn't need to have a Chinese to affirm his viewpoint is not relevant. Tibetans have had less success in getting their story across to the Chinese people than Palestinians have (recently)." Again, I was referring to the MSM in the U.S. who write about Darfur and Tibet from the perspective of those people and without attempting to "balance out" the messages of those people by also reporting on Chinese or Sudanese propaganda.
You don't feel an urgency to be heard, that there is a need for the Palestinians' story to be heard?
"All the non Jews that come here come to hear what the progressive Jews tell them to believe." So are you a progressive Jew, or do you come here to be told whatto believe thedhimmi?
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