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	<title>Comments on: A Jewish state &#8212; or Jewish values?</title>
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	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
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		<title>By: Confused Jew</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html/comment-page-1#comment-102173</link>
		<dc:creator>Confused Jew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 13:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html#comment-102173</guid>
		<description>what exactly about Tema Okun qualifies her to call herself a &quot;religious&quot; Jew?  
She and her &quot;partner&quot;?  not her spouse, I take it....

I have seen her in pictures.  Never noticed her in a head-covering, or appropriate dress for a &quot;religious&quot; Jew....oh, she is a REFORM Jew....hmmm someone should point that fact out, otherwise people may get the impression that real religious Jews are against Zionism. There are plenty of reform jews who are against zionism or even against traditional jews, in fact, what is christianity?  is it not a form of &quot;reform&quot; judaism?

Dear reform Jews, please stop co-opting our religion.  Tema should not pretend that she speaks for religious Jewry. If she can speak for Jews, then I can speak as a devout Muslim in support of Israel&#039;s complete annexation of the occupied territories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what exactly about Tema Okun qualifies her to call herself a &#8220;religious&#8221; Jew?<br />
She and her &#8220;partner&#8221;?  not her spouse, I take it&#8230;.</p>
<p>I have seen her in pictures.  Never noticed her in a head-covering, or appropriate dress for a &#8220;religious&#8221; Jew&#8230;.oh, she is a REFORM Jew&#8230;.hmmm someone should point that fact out, otherwise people may get the impression that real religious Jews are against Zionism. There are plenty of reform jews who are against zionism or even against traditional jews, in fact, what is christianity?  is it not a form of &#8220;reform&#8221; judaism?</p>
<p>Dear reform Jews, please stop co-opting our religion.  Tema should not pretend that she speaks for religious Jewry. If she can speak for Jews, then I can speak as a devout Muslim in support of Israel&#8217;s complete annexation of the occupied territories.</p>
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		<title>By: lovelyisraelis</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html/comment-page-1#comment-101676</link>
		<dc:creator>lovelyisraelis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html#comment-101676</guid>
		<description>Shmuel

but for the fact that mainstream jewry overwhelmingly identifies with Zionism and finds no contradiction between Zionist ambitions and the teachings of Judaism, I find your case compelling. Unfortunately, most Jews do not agree. I don&#039;t see the argument as qualitatively different from the case made by Christians that the massacre (on Christian principles) of indigenous peoples of the Americas was a perversion of Christian ideals. If that is indeed so, we can only say that such perversions of the true faith are so ubiquitous as to render  this true faith, essentially meaningless in any practical terms. 

I don&#039;t think you can win an argument as to your version of Judaism being more legitimate than Avigdor Leiberman&#039;s. You CAN objectively say that according to humanist, enlightenment principles, he&#039;s a monster and according to well-recognized legal principles, he is a criminal. That seems to me the better way to go,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shmuel</p>
<p>but for the fact that mainstream jewry overwhelmingly identifies with Zionism and finds no contradiction between Zionist ambitions and the teachings of Judaism, I find your case compelling. Unfortunately, most Jews do not agree. I don&#8217;t see the argument as qualitatively different from the case made by Christians that the massacre (on Christian principles) of indigenous peoples of the Americas was a perversion of Christian ideals. If that is indeed so, we can only say that such perversions of the true faith are so ubiquitous as to render  this true faith, essentially meaningless in any practical terms. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think you can win an argument as to your version of Judaism being more legitimate than Avigdor Leiberman&#8217;s. You CAN objectively say that according to humanist, enlightenment principles, he&#8217;s a monster and according to well-recognized legal principles, he is a criminal. That seems to me the better way to go,</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html/comment-page-1#comment-101364</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html#comment-101364</guid>
		<description>@lovelyisraelis.  Your last post went missing during the facelift, but I&#039;d like to answer anyway.  

Thank God (figure of speech) that culture and literature cannot be scientifically observed, weighed and measured. That is not to say that convincing arguments cannot be made, but that there are no definitive answers.  Rabbinical control however, is quite another matter – one with which Jews have not really had to contend for a good couple of centuries, thanks to the recognition of the equal citizenship of Jews in the countries in which they reside.  Without the political powers invested in Jewish religious communities by the ruling elite, Judaism has returned to a blissful state of intellectual anarchy in which all are free to interpret Judaism as they see fit, without the interference of pesky and often ill-intentioned intermediaries.  Ironically, it is Zionism and the State of Israel that have attempted to return us to the ghetto, by establishing an official “rabbinate” and interfering with such highly personal and subjective questions as “who is a Jew?”.  The Jewish ethno-religious state thus belies its declared goal of ultimate emancipation for the Jews.  It is not my intention to equate Jewish and Palestinian suffering at the hands of political Zionism, and our current focus must certainly be Palestinian liberation.  Nevertheless, I also believe that Zionism has inflicted terrible and possibly irreparable damage upon Jewish culture, religion and life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@lovelyisraelis.  Your last post went missing during the facelift, but I&#8217;d like to answer anyway.  </p>
<p>Thank God (figure of speech) that culture and literature cannot be scientifically observed, weighed and measured. That is not to say that convincing arguments cannot be made, but that there are no definitive answers.  Rabbinical control however, is quite another matter – one with which Jews have not really had to contend for a good couple of centuries, thanks to the recognition of the equal citizenship of Jews in the countries in which they reside.  Without the political powers invested in Jewish religious communities by the ruling elite, Judaism has returned to a blissful state of intellectual anarchy in which all are free to interpret Judaism as they see fit, without the interference of pesky and often ill-intentioned intermediaries.  Ironically, it is Zionism and the State of Israel that have attempted to return us to the ghetto, by establishing an official “rabbinate” and interfering with such highly personal and subjective questions as “who is a Jew?”.  The Jewish ethno-religious state thus belies its declared goal of ultimate emancipation for the Jews.  It is not my intention to equate Jewish and Palestinian suffering at the hands of political Zionism, and our current focus must certainly be Palestinian liberation.  Nevertheless, I also believe that Zionism has inflicted terrible and possibly irreparable damage upon Jewish culture, religion and life.</p>
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		<title>By: Jake in Jerusalem</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html/comment-page-1#comment-101167</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake in Jerusalem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:58:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html#comment-101167</guid>
		<description>Jon, silly, it&#039;s not a matter of &quot;purity&quot;.  It&#039;s a technical issue.  The same issue that makes Arnold Shwazenegger not eligible for the Presidency according to US law.  Technically, she is not Jewish.  Practically, she is OBVIOUSLY not Jewish.  Some people, like Tema Okun, ONLY claim Jewish identity as something to fight against.  The MondoPeople who run this site are exactly the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon, silly, it&#8217;s not a matter of &#8220;purity&#8221;.  It&#8217;s a technical issue.  The same issue that makes Arnold Shwazenegger not eligible for the Presidency according to US law.  Technically, she is not Jewish.  Practically, she is OBVIOUSLY not Jewish.  Some people, like Tema Okun, ONLY claim Jewish identity as something to fight against.  The MondoPeople who run this site are exactly the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Jake in Jerusalem</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html/comment-page-1#comment-101165</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake in Jerusalem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Witty,

You know nothing about my Jewish studies so don&#039;t pontificate.  You have displayed considerable ignorance of Jewish philosophy in the past.  Why you are so proud of this is beyond me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Witty,</p>
<p>You know nothing about my Jewish studies so don&#8217;t pontificate.  You have displayed considerable ignorance of Jewish philosophy in the past.  Why you are so proud of this is beyond me.</p>
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		<title>By: blue</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html/comment-page-1#comment-101103</link>
		<dc:creator>blue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html#comment-101103</guid>
		<description>I find it quite stunning that all you can come up with is ad hominem attacks on her person questioning her Judaism.  Because she clearly can&#039;t be jewish and feel the way she does?  Is anti-zionism only incompatible with certain movements of Judaism?  If she&#039;d said she was reform or reconstructionist, would you still spend time trying to debunk her Jewishness?

Regardless, it is not a substantive reply to her argument, beliefs, feelings.  I grew up conservadox, I&#039;m in a program to be a talmud teacher now and I agree with her sentiments.  You may not like what I believe but questioning my Jewishness will not make my opinions disappear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it quite stunning that all you can come up with is ad hominem attacks on her person questioning her Judaism.  Because she clearly can&#8217;t be jewish and feel the way she does?  Is anti-zionism only incompatible with certain movements of Judaism?  If she&#8217;d said she was reform or reconstructionist, would you still spend time trying to debunk her Jewishness?</p>
<p>Regardless, it is not a substantive reply to her argument, beliefs, feelings.  I grew up conservadox, I&#8217;m in a program to be a talmud teacher now and I agree with her sentiments.  You may not like what I believe but questioning my Jewishness will not make my opinions disappear.</p>
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		<title>By: shummel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html/comment-page-1#comment-101101</link>
		<dc:creator>shummel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you so much for having the courage to speak out, Tema.  You know well the hatred targeted at the Jewish bearers of such testimony and insight, but you continue to speak out anyway because it is the right thing to do.  Very courageous.  Now we just need millions more like you.

I particularly appreciated your explanation of the settlements and their role.  I have read about them before but never felt the hurt, insult and humiliation that Palestinians must feel when they look up at these settlements with their lights and signs of permanence - all protected by formidable military might.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you so much for having the courage to speak out, Tema.  You know well the hatred targeted at the Jewish bearers of such testimony and insight, but you continue to speak out anyway because it is the right thing to do.  Very courageous.  Now we just need millions more like you.</p>
<p>I particularly appreciated your explanation of the settlements and their role.  I have read about them before but never felt the hurt, insult and humiliation that Palestinians must feel when they look up at these settlements with their lights and signs of permanence &#8211; all protected by formidable military might.</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html/comment-page-1#comment-100934</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Dear Lovely,    For the record, I too consider myself an atheist (although, as I mentioned, I was once an Orthodox Jew).  I am familiar with Shahak&#039;s work, and briefly belonged to a one-state group with which he was involved in Jerusalem.  He was a great man, and a great champion of Palestinian rights.  I strongly disagreed however, with his approach to Judaism and Jewish texts.  I think he fell into the trap of anachronism and made the mistake of judging the whole by the extreme.  To borrow your metaphor, I think he mistook a part of the tip for the entire iceberg.      My point was not to defend my right to believe or draw inspiration from whatever I like, nor was it to assert that Judaism has any monopoly over human decency.  What I have been trying to say, perhaps a little long-windedly (apologies), is that there is nothing strange or contradictory about someone drawing positive ethical conclusions from Jewish tradition and history, or even believing that those who fail to do so in fact violate that tradition.      I am currently hatless.    </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Lovely,    For the record, I too consider myself an atheist (although, as I mentioned, I was once an Orthodox Jew).  I am familiar with Shahak&#039;s work, and briefly belonged to a one-state group with which he was involved in Jerusalem.  He was a great man, and a great champion of Palestinian rights.  I strongly disagreed however, with his approach to Judaism and Jewish texts.  I think he fell into the trap of anachronism and made the mistake of judging the whole by the extreme.  To borrow your metaphor, I think he mistook a part of the tip for the entire iceberg.      My point was not to defend my right to believe or draw inspiration from whatever I like, nor was it to assert that Judaism has any monopoly over human decency.  What I have been trying to say, perhaps a little long-windedly (apologies), is that there is nothing strange or contradictory about someone drawing positive ethical conclusions from Jewish tradition and history, or even believing that those who fail to do so in fact violate that tradition.      I am currently hatless.</p>
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		<title>By: ThorsProvoni</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html/comment-page-1#comment-100950</link>
		<dc:creator>ThorsProvoni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:22:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The Israel-Palestine conflict simply is not symmetric, and racist Jews like Witty continue to dehumanize Palestinians when they fail to advocate a solution that fully restores Palestinian residence and property rights, which are basic human rights. Any settlement that does not fully recognize Palestinian humanity, which Zionists as adherents of ethnic Ashkenazi Nazism reject, creates a moral hazard, for Zionists would perceive no downside if they decided to go on a murderous genocidal rampage once again some time in the future. My wife discusses the issue in &lt;a href=&quot;http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2007/04/zioshmooze-vs-plain-english.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Zioshmooze versus Plain English&lt;/a&gt; .  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Israel-Palestine conflict simply is not symmetric, and racist Jews like Witty continue to dehumanize Palestinians when they fail to advocate a solution that fully restores Palestinian residence and property rights, which are basic human rights. Any settlement that does not fully recognize Palestinian humanity, which Zionists as adherents of ethnic Ashkenazi Nazism reject, creates a moral hazard, for Zionists would perceive no downside if they decided to go on a murderous genocidal rampage once again some time in the future. My wife discusses the issue in <a href="http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2007/04/zioshmooze-vs-plain-english.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Zioshmooze versus Plain English</a> .</p>
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		<title>By: lovelyisraelis</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html/comment-page-1#comment-100933</link>
		<dc:creator>lovelyisraelis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d1825805.u264.foliopress.net/2009/07/tema-okun.html#comment-100933</guid>
		<description>Hi Shmuel    I ought to be clearer. I haven&#039;t any objections naturally, to one following whatever one finds inspiring, life-affirming, etc..be it Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, psychedelic drugs, molecular biology, insect acoustics, bingo or snow-shoe-ing. I only question the application of so-called Jewish values to the tragedy in the occupied territories. I think it&#039;s better to oppose it on the basis of human values. Indeed, linking humanistic values with this or that religious or ethnic group as though it is the favored province of jews seems to lead to the very air of superiority and arrogance I think we&#039;re trying to combat.     In the interest of full disclosure, I&#039;ve always been an atheist and found Israel Shahak&#039;s revelations on Jewish religion particularly eye-opening and disturbing. His initial foray into this domain was a ha&#039;aretz story about jews refusing to call an ambulance for a non-Jew in israel, because it was the sabbath. Shahak&#039;s  official rabbinical sources informed him that this was indeed proper behavior under Jewish religious law. Of course, that&#039;s only the tip of the iceberg.     here in its entirety with gore vidal&#039;s intro:     &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.geocities.com/israel_shahak/book1.htm&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.geocities.com/israel_shahak/book1.htm&lt;/a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://www.geocities.com/israel_shahak/book1.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;    Hold on to your hat!  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Shmuel    I ought to be clearer. I haven&#039;t any objections naturally, to one following whatever one finds inspiring, life-affirming, etc..be it Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, psychedelic drugs, molecular biology, insect acoustics, bingo or snow-shoe-ing. I only question the application of so-called Jewish values to the tragedy in the occupied territories. I think it&#039;s better to oppose it on the basis of human values. Indeed, linking humanistic values with this or that religious or ethnic group as though it is the favored province of jews seems to lead to the very air of superiority and arrogance I think we&#039;re trying to combat.     In the interest of full disclosure, I&#039;ve always been an atheist and found Israel Shahak&#039;s revelations on Jewish religion particularly eye-opening and disturbing. His initial foray into this domain was a ha&#039;aretz story about jews refusing to call an ambulance for a non-Jew in israel, because it was the sabbath. Shahak&#039;s  official rabbinical sources informed him that this was indeed proper behavior under Jewish religious law. Of course, that&#039;s only the tip of the iceberg.     here in its entirety with gore vidal&#039;s intro:     <a href="http://www.geocities.com/israel_shahak/book1.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.geocities.com/israel_shahak/book1.htm</a>    Hold on to your hat!</p>
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