Sharing a cab to JFK, business for him, a frolic for me, Antony Loewenstein challenged me, If Israel bombs Iran, then you really have to get over your adoration of Obama.
But I said I wouldn't. I would say that Obama was compelled to accept the disaster, against the very fiber of his beliefs, because of the power of the lobby in political life (and I related Felice Gelman's conversation with Obama before he pandered at AIPAC).
Getting out of the cab, Loewenstein said that I ascribe too much power to the lobby, including the idea that we wouldn't be in Iraq but for the lobby. I said Yes I do think that, probably. Then he got on a plane.
This post must not be interpreted as giving Obama a green light to a clear conscience.
Related posts:
- Roger Cohen again. Get tough on Israel before it bombs Iran…
- Dear Sec’y Gates: How many American soldiers would Shi’ites kill in Iraq if Israel bombs Iran?
- Nixon/China, Obama/Iran
- Mearsheimer: if you think Obama’s going to put pressure on Israel, you’re living in Disneyland
- Obama has reaffirmed double standard for Israel/Iran on NPT
{ 48 comments }
The lobby is a boogie man, Weiss. They can move nations to war, but just can't get one patriot released from jail.
If Israel bombs Iran Obama would be responsible. This would likely be a worse debacle than Iraq. Along with Bush's War in Afghanistan morphing into Obama's war against the Pashtun people this should completely sink any respect that peace loving people have for that man. I happen to be torn; his words about diplomacy and seeming action on Palestine have to be weighed against the Pashtun war and his siding with wall street banks against working people. A war against Iran would be too much.
Bull. Obama gave clear signals that he expects Israel to conduct itself as a civilized nation. Biden made an ambiguous comment, is all. Sure, the presumption is that every comment is intentionally nuanced, and in that light, Biden's statement "Israel is responsible for its own foreign policy", can be construed as a green light. Obama, and the rest of the civilized world, are very angered by the way Iran has conducted itself relative to its internal political struggles, arresting I think six from the British Embassy on trumped up charges rather than acknowledge that even the governing religious council is split on the integrity of its election. THAT is what gave the green light to Israel, if anything did. Hopefully nothing will.
"Israel is responsible for its own foreign policy." and so was nazi germany, another sovereign country if i remember correctly.
Phil, with all due respect. It feels you should pay more attention with what carelessness the "news" generated by Stephanopoulus is picked up and multiplied. Without the appropriate critical comment I would expect from Robert Dreyfuss he passes on meme and link to the LAT, headline: Biden says Israel has the right to attack Iran http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/world/middleeas... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/world/middleeas... Pay attention to the question.. Even better watch how he carefully leads him there. George Stephanopoulos: "Meanwhile the clock is ticking. … Meanwhile Prime Minister Netanyahu made it pretty clear that he agreed with President Obama till the end of the year for this whole process of engagement to work. After that he is prepared to take matters into his own hands." This question is asked about -37:00, the whole Iran debate starts around -41:37 direct video link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/world/middleeas... Mutation of the question in the LAT: Biden was asked whether Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was taking the right approach by indicating that Israel would take matters into its own hands if Iran did not show a willingness to negotiate by the end of the year. You never question a colleagues tricks? You never ask who started this special time table piece of agenda setting? Agenda Setting. Remember? NYT, headline: May 18, Obama Tells Netanyahu He Has an Iran Timetable, accompanied by an image that shows Nethanyahu talks, Obama listens. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/world/middleeas... So please stop to do the same. If you respect Obama, you have to save Biden from these kind of tricks, and not join the chorus and spread another hoax.
Marketing the drive for the US to bomb Iran is going to have to be really solid, with multiple fronts, and more credible than previous campaigns. 1. "Ahmadinejad calling for the destruction of Israel." (mistranslation of a call for regime change, didn't stick) 2. Iranian fast boats attacking US war ships in the Gulf (debunked as irresponsible radio chatter). 3. Iran supplying tons of new shaped charged IED and sophisticated weapons to resistance in Iraq (debunked). 4. "Smoking Iranian laptop with nuclear plans". (too much smoke, not enough credible information). The tick-tock march to an Israeli encouraged US strike on Iranian facilities is just too boring for the viewing audience. Can't wait to see what comes out later this year
I wonder, though, how much of the 'bomb Iran' movement is actually coming from the nefarious and very well funded world of American covert intelligence, and not just Israeli machinations.
And as an idiot, you are responsible for your own opinion.
Once again I disagree with Phil on Iran. (this has become par for the course now, even though I agree with everything he says on Israel-Palestine). If Israel attacks Iran, it will be with either overt or covert US approval. In which case Obama should be condemned. If somehow, Israel actually does it AGAINST US wishes, Obama must immediately condemn it and take political action against Israel. If he doesn't, again, Obama must be condemned. Saying that the Lobby has a gun to his head is no excuse — it's the same as saying that Ahmadinejad/Khamenei have the right to establish a proto-fascist dictatorship because of the fear of an Israeli/US attack.
Wow, I actually kind of agree with Witty. Biden's statement was definitely not the green light. It was just the typical mumbo jumbo that every politician says. Non-speak. Any green light from Obama for Israel to attack Iran won't be given by Joe Biden on "This Week," it will be given privately and quietly and we'll only know about it when the attacks begin.
Israel "a civilized nation?" HA HA HA It would be funny if they weren't so murderous. So racist. Such thieves. Bomb the settlements!
All military experts I read on the topic agree that Israel can't do it on its own. Israel has one theoretical option. Nukes. And that clearly is a non-option.
The "governing religious council" is split? Which body, pray tell, would that be? The two parliamentarian or senatorial-type entities within the Iranian government of a religious nature are the Assembly of Experts and the Guardian Council, with the latter being the far more powerful of the two and most certainly not "split on the integrity of [the 2009 Presidential] election". There are undoubtedly some clerics in the Assembly of Experts that share your views, as Hashemi Rafsanjani heads it, but the body itself issued a statement in support of Khamene'i immediately following his Friday prayer speech on June 19th. I can only conclude that you're confusing the Assembly of Qom Scholars and Researchers, a heavily pro-"reform" group of Islamic scholars based in the city of Qom, with a part of the Islamic Republic's polity. That said, I share your sentiment that hopefully nothing will give Israel the green light to initiate a strike on Iran.
just like you are.
The trouble with the statement that "Israel is responsible for its own foreign policy", is that it is not true. If Israel were to attack Iran, and Iran retaliated, isn't the US dedicated to protecting Israel? Thus, Israel's foreign policy directly influences the US.
The British now HATE Iran. The Germans have now publicly confronted Iran. Iran's "innocence" is no longer assumed by anybody. It was reported in Haaretz, that Saudi Arabia had given permission for Israel to use Saudi airspace. Maybe it all plays into Ahmenidijad's hands. Or, maybe Iran is at the tipping point.
Frankly, Iran's treatment of protestors could have ended up private. Iran conducting a show trial of British embassy officials (rather than simply expelling them), and broadcasting likely forced confessions, is off the scale. LOTS of powers are HOPING that Israel bombs Iran. It could be happening as I write.
It is strange to see how swiftly Iran has managed to squander any remaining international goodwill. They seem truly clueless as to how to present themselves to the West. That said, bombing Iran would be a very bad idea. It would immediately end internal disagreements in favour of uniting in a hard line against Israel and the US. The damage Iran could do to regional stability, our oil supply, and national security must not be underestimated. If we stay out of Iranian affairs, the ideals of the reformers will have a chance to affect the society. If we prove ourselves an enemy, all that will be lost.
"LOTS of powers are HOPING that Israel bombs Iran. " Rubbish. No one is OPING that Israel bombs Iran and what's more, they all know Israel can't do it alone.
It's interesting how given that that so called revolution has failed, the usual suspects are back to obsessing about Iran's non existent nuclear weapons program.
Obama has already lost his shine. He is an establishment president who kills as easily as W. Bush. If Iran is bombed, by anyone, then Americans should take to the streets like Iranians and create disobedient chaos. Such a fantasy might provide some hope, but most likely the bombing of Iran would be a signal to liquidate and escape America's capitalist paradise. Bombing Iran could make Iranians more like Israelis, and that would be the most likely , and worst, outcome. Although I no longer trust Obama, I hope he would intervene and stop Israel from bombing Iran. America's and Israel's fascination with Iran is completely irrational, which makes it so scary.
The problem is Israel and whether Obama has the spine to say no to them and warn them. Last year, not only did Bush refuse a request by Israel to bomb Iran, but , Admiral Mike Mullen Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, went to Israel to personally warn them not to as well as warn them that there woudl be a repeat of the USS Liberty type attack on US targets to try and start a conflict.
Not one word in all these comments about the absolute international illegitimacy of Israel even THINKING it has the right or option to even talk about bombing Iran. Even to engage in the psychological warfare of threatening to bomb Iran is a violation of the UN Convention on Genocide: Article 2 In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Article 3 The following acts shall be punishable: (a) Genocide; (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide; (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide; DIRECT AND PUBLIC INCITEMENT TO COMMIT GENOCIDE! (d ) Attempt to commit genocide; (e) Complicity in genocide. Biden does NOT get a pass on the basis that his tongue is beyond his control. His statement on Sunday was the equivalent of yelling fire in a theater. He should be thoroughly chastened for the remark, and Israeli Knesset members who repeat threats about attacking Iran should also be hauled before UN and called to account. This is not a schoolyard game, we are talking about the lives of millions of innocent people. What right does Israel have to even think it can go around threatening to destroy another sovereign country?
Iran is beside the point, vis a vis Obama's criminality. He is already a mass murderer of Pakistani and Afghan civilians. Is the israel lobby forcing him to launch drone strikes, which have killed hundreds, many of them, children? As Chomsky accurately stated, were the law of the land judiciously applied, nearly all of our presidents would have been executed.
i totally agree great minds and all that.
Save the bombs for Tel Aviv.
I recall GW Bush's response when Israel attacked S. Lebanon. He said the US had nothing to do with it but "Israel had the right to defend itself." And he said repeatedly that Israel should restrain itself. And then would not even allow a ceasefire! Meanwhile it was revealed that as he spoke the US was sending over cluster bombs, I think I read. Cluster bombs??Later on it was revealed that US/Israel has been planning that attack for a year. So much for the "self defense" lie. The 2008 Gaza attack had been planned since 2004. 'Nuf said there. Usurper Israel has never acted self defense EVER. And always backed by the US which hides behind a corner and peaks. Newly elected leaders don't mean anything in Israel or the US. Same game just different faces.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1098650.html U.S. army chief: Iran strike would be 'very destabilizing' By The Associated Press Tags: Mike Mullen, U.S., Iran A military strike to thwart Iran's nuclear weapons capability remains on the table but could have grave consequences and would be "very destabilizing," the top U.S. military officer said Tuesday. "I worry a great deal about the response of a country that gets struck," said Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. "It is a really important place to not go, if we can not go there in any way, shape or form."
Not hoping as in actually doing it, more like the glee expressed in the West Bank and other Arab communities when 911 occurred.
Yes, that's how it will happen–then gas for our cars will go up to $10.00 a gallon. And China's star will rise exceedingly high while we hurtle even faster towards our new status as a banana republic.
If Israel attacks Iran and Iran turns out to be even a semi-giant no longer sleeping? The US will rush in to bail Israel out. This will in turn will ignite WW3. Congress eventually have to reinstitute the Draft. In the in-between, we will be giving Israel literal fuel and every other weapon available, while the economy tumbles down, down. On the the other hand, such a war would cure the job shortage in all the ways major wars do.
Does anyone think Obama will stand up to our whore Congress? He actually could go over its wigged head by directly addressing the American Public. I doubt he would do that.
Especially Iran's number one enemy, Saudi Arabia.
It does not need the right; it has full support of the only superpower.
I agree with PlanetMichelle's assessment.
or for your momma,
Can you commit genocide against a structure? You guys throw that word around pretty liberally here. This was the lamest argument to date on Mondoweiss, congrats psychobabble! that being said, bombing Iran would be a horrible mistake, it would create the same atmosphere of anti-semitism that followed the oil embargo following the Arab's surprise attack on Israel in 1973.
Wow, do you remember what starting the war in Lebanon? Did Israel work with Hezbollah to kill its own soldiers in a cross boarder raid following a barrage of rocket attacks. Only the Jews could be so cunning and manipulative!
Let's face it, when Israel Bombed the Iraqi Nuclear plant, officially, against US warnings, no one jumped, but later everyone celebrated. When Israel Bombed the suspected Syrian Nuclear site, initially the Bush admin said, no comments, then came out in full support, even Obama supported them. Israel attacked a column of trucks in Sudan carrying weapons to Hamas and everyone applauded. Israel will always do what Israel thinks is in its own interest and pre-emptive strikes are the basis of that policy. Israel can be expected to attack Iran's sites with sepcific objectives. I don't think it will try to attack ALL the sites, Israel has enough knowledge on the progress of each site and will chose its target to deliver a serious blow to make Iran think twice about continuing the program. If is not the question, When is.
Would Iran retaliate by attacking Saudi and Gulf states sites, I doubt it. This would isolate them more and that would drag the US in. Even Israel can calculate this easily. The real threat comes from Syria and Hizballah in southern Lebanon. I don't think Syria will do anything beside make a lot of noise and mass its troops as a show of support for Iran. Hizballah will likely launch a few rockets but that's all, before the strike, Israel will mass its forces in the northern borders just to keep things checked. The initial strike on Iran's "select" nuclear sites will make everyone in the area think twice and apart from a lot of noise, i don't see WW3 in the air. The main impact might actually be a change in the Iranian political structure and now that we witnessed a strong opposition in Iran, Israel will be including this in its calculation. Obama will voice diappointment but will also fall in line like the rest of the world and repeat that tired old line, "Israel has the right to defend itself". ho hum…
It won't succeed at any objective, and is dumb to pursue a strategy that cause great harm with no prospect of success. Iran DID burn its bridges with all prospective supporters by its appalling response to the election contention. No Russia, no China, no Islamic world supporting it in any way.
Lamest argument, eh. My bad: I copied it from Jewish-American lawmakers who floated several attempts to persuade Congress to pass resolutions condemning Ahmadinejad as inciting genocide in violation of the UN Convention….. on the basis of his mistranslated remark that Israel will disappear from the pages of time. Another case of OK for Israel to do it/say it; not ok for anyone else.
By the way, for those who forgot about the attack against the Iraqi site, you might find this Wiki summary ineteresting. Although i think Wiki missed many facts, the summary is good enough to show you what took place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera
The Israelis are the ones who crossed the border. As a matter of fact, Israel still occupies parts of Lebanon. The terrorists manning that occupation are not in Israel. Nevertheless, the kidnapping of occupying terrorists should not have initiated an aerial war against the civilians of Beirut. An analogy of what Israel did to Lebanon would be for the US to raze Tel Aviv for imprisoning Cynthia McKinney. Not one American, even militant leftists, have advocated for the bombing of Israeli civilians for the harsh treatment of Americans trying to bring aid and liberty to Palestinians. They only advocate for ending military aid to Israel in the hopes it will end Israel's targeting of civilians.
"…Israel Bombed the suspected Syrian Nuclear site." It wasn't Olmert's administration. Olmert was making friendly gestures towards the Syrians right at that time. And Syria did not and does not have a graphite moderated nuclear reactor like the ones the North Koreans are said to have/had. The IAEA didn't find anything to indicate there was such a thing -a trace on one or two wipes does not a reactor make (but it is almost certainly an indication of tampering with the wipes). The finger of suspicion about who was behind the incident points to a group of rogue Israelis, some of them engaged in the weapons platform/delivery business. All things considered, an extremely dangerous group. A group that can only bring ruin to Israel. Peddling this 'Syria had a reactor' story just distracts attention from the fact that Israel is the real nuclear threat in the region. The ongoing failure of the media to highlight this issue demonstrates the amazing sway that the Zionist's talking points hold over the industry.
Or the glee expressed by those five van-topped Israelis who were quickly sent back home. And don't forget N's verbal slippage before he corrected himself.
Which part of Lebanon are you referring to? The Israelis crossed the border, that is an utter lie, that is laughable. Did the Israelis kill their own soldiers too? Cunning cunning Jews! And your analogy is horse shit. No one cares about Cynthia McKinney she is a nutcase who participated in that whole charade as a publicity stunt.
I am wondering how many of you have read this sound analysis on Iran and U.S. policy towards Iran by Terrel E. Arnold? Some how I think not many since since the so-called Left hardly picked up on it….. US Electoral Meddling Soft Coups & Regime Changes By Terrell E. Arnold 6-22-9 http://www.rense.com/general86/regime.htm
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