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	<title>Comments on: Pearl Harbor, continued</title>
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	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Shingo</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/pearl-harbor-continued.html/comment-page-1#comment-103878</link>
		<dc:creator>Shingo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8096#comment-103878</guid>
		<description>Richard,

Your timeline is a figment of your own imagination.  Your version of events is not supported by any facts.

There was no restoration of the cease-fire by mutual consent until January of 2009.

The question is entirely about who violated the cease-fire.   Israel doesn’t get to violate the ceasefire  by striking at Gaza and then declare the ceasefire to be restored.  It is akin to telling your enemy to stand still why you give them a bloody nose and complaining when they decide to retaliate.

The cease-fire was ended the day Israel violated  it, formally or otherwise.  Had Hamas struck at Israel and killed 6 civilians, Israel would have most certainly responded.

The question  of what was necessary or courageous is trite and irrelevant.  As a resistance organization, it is incumbent upon Hamas to resist Israel violence and occupation.  Hamas already had justification for rocketing Israel, given that Israel refused to lift the blockade, having earlier agreed to do so.

Given the 4 months of calm prior to November 4th, Israel had the option of returning to the ceasefire as proposed by Hamas in December, but rejected the offer.  The reason was given by Tzipi Livni – a ceasefire is not in Israel’s strategic interests.  Had the ceasefire lasted the duration without incident, the agreement was that it would be extended even further, which would have created pressure on Israel to eventually negotiate with Hamas.  This is the last thing they want.

There is no ambiguity about the fact that the cease-fire agreement included the lifting of blockade and the enabling of cross-border traffic.  Whether formal or otherwise, Israel agreed to these conditions.

If Hamas had not resumed shelling, Israel would have  continued inciting Hamas until they got the response they needed.   Israel are masters at this game.  No one in Israel was even injured by the rockets that Hams fired after November 4th.

Your argument essentially boils down to the fact that Hamas allowed Israel to vilate the ceafsefire and  provoke them into a response.  You admit that Israel instigated this violence that ensued, but are perfectly OK with that.  In your opinin, Hams are to blame (as always) beasue they didn&#039;t allow Gaza to be bombed.

Your arguments are pure Israel propaganda and as such are very weak and unpersuasive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard,</p>
<p>Your timeline is a figment of your own imagination.  Your version of events is not supported by any facts.</p>
<p>There was no restoration of the cease-fire by mutual consent until January of 2009.</p>
<p>The question is entirely about who violated the cease-fire.   Israel doesn’t get to violate the ceasefire  by striking at Gaza and then declare the ceasefire to be restored.  It is akin to telling your enemy to stand still why you give them a bloody nose and complaining when they decide to retaliate.</p>
<p>The cease-fire was ended the day Israel violated  it, formally or otherwise.  Had Hamas struck at Israel and killed 6 civilians, Israel would have most certainly responded.</p>
<p>The question  of what was necessary or courageous is trite and irrelevant.  As a resistance organization, it is incumbent upon Hamas to resist Israel violence and occupation.  Hamas already had justification for rocketing Israel, given that Israel refused to lift the blockade, having earlier agreed to do so.</p>
<p>Given the 4 months of calm prior to November 4th, Israel had the option of returning to the ceasefire as proposed by Hamas in December, but rejected the offer.  The reason was given by Tzipi Livni – a ceasefire is not in Israel’s strategic interests.  Had the ceasefire lasted the duration without incident, the agreement was that it would be extended even further, which would have created pressure on Israel to eventually negotiate with Hamas.  This is the last thing they want.</p>
<p>There is no ambiguity about the fact that the cease-fire agreement included the lifting of blockade and the enabling of cross-border traffic.  Whether formal or otherwise, Israel agreed to these conditions.</p>
<p>If Hamas had not resumed shelling, Israel would have  continued inciting Hamas until they got the response they needed.   Israel are masters at this game.  No one in Israel was even injured by the rockets that Hams fired after November 4th.</p>
<p>Your argument essentially boils down to the fact that Hamas allowed Israel to vilate the ceafsefire and  provoke them into a response.  You admit that Israel instigated this violence that ensued, but are perfectly OK with that.  In your opinin, Hams are to blame (as always) beasue they didn&#8217;t allow Gaza to be bombed.</p>
<p>Your arguments are pure Israel propaganda and as such are very weak and unpersuasive.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/pearl-harbor-continued.html/comment-page-1#comment-103850</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 17:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8096#comment-103850</guid>
		<description>Citizen and Shingo,
If you read the timeline that Citizen posted above, the timeline EXACTLY conforms to my description of the sequence of events.

Read about the restoration of the cease-fire by mutual consent, for the duration of its term, on November 17th.

The question isn&#039;t really who violated the cease-fire. When Hamas resumed shelling Israel, the cease-fire had formally stopped.

But, the important question that I raised was &quot;was it necessary, was it good judgement, was it courageous&quot; for Hamas to resume shelling.

And, was it courageous for them to escalate shelling UNTIL Israel responded militarily, and then hide, leaving Gazan civilians to bear the brunt of the Israeli attacks?

In the article you posted, Citizen, it did NOT describe the cease-fire agreement as formally including the removal of blockade or full normalization of cross-border traffic, but instead used the terms that &quot;Hamas expected&quot;.

They are DIFFERENT terms.

I get that you believe what you want to believe, that you don&#039;t bother to question your own assumptions, but in fact, Hamas was a primary party to the instigation of the Israeli response.

If Hamas had not resumed shelling, Israel would not have had the political cover to undertake a &quot;planned&quot; military operation. (Israel has probably 100&#039;s of plans, unused). They blew it. 

They let their frustration guide their decisions, rather than there benevolent reasoning. (Do you think they apply benevolent reasoning to Israeli civilians?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Citizen and Shingo,<br />
If you read the timeline that Citizen posted above, the timeline EXACTLY conforms to my description of the sequence of events.</p>
<p>Read about the restoration of the cease-fire by mutual consent, for the duration of its term, on November 17th.</p>
<p>The question isn&#8217;t really who violated the cease-fire. When Hamas resumed shelling Israel, the cease-fire had formally stopped.</p>
<p>But, the important question that I raised was &#8220;was it necessary, was it good judgement, was it courageous&#8221; for Hamas to resume shelling.</p>
<p>And, was it courageous for them to escalate shelling UNTIL Israel responded militarily, and then hide, leaving Gazan civilians to bear the brunt of the Israeli attacks?</p>
<p>In the article you posted, Citizen, it did NOT describe the cease-fire agreement as formally including the removal of blockade or full normalization of cross-border traffic, but instead used the terms that &#8220;Hamas expected&#8221;.</p>
<p>They are DIFFERENT terms.</p>
<p>I get that you believe what you want to believe, that you don&#8217;t bother to question your own assumptions, but in fact, Hamas was a primary party to the instigation of the Israeli response.</p>
<p>If Hamas had not resumed shelling, Israel would not have had the political cover to undertake a &#8220;planned&#8221; military operation. (Israel has probably 100&#8242;s of plans, unused). They blew it. </p>
<p>They let their frustration guide their decisions, rather than there benevolent reasoning. (Do you think they apply benevolent reasoning to Israeli civilians?)</p>
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		<title>By: Citizen</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/pearl-harbor-continued.html/comment-page-1#comment-103834</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8096#comment-103834</guid>
		<description>Richard Witty is completely wrong. Here&#039;s the tit-4-tat time line rendered after
Israel broke the lull on November 4th, 2008 right up to implementation of OP Cast Lead: http://wapedia.mobi/en/Operation_Cast_Lead</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Witty is completely wrong. Here&#8217;s the tit-4-tat time line rendered after<br />
Israel broke the lull on November 4th, 2008 right up to implementation of OP Cast Lead: <a href="http://wapedia.mobi/en/Operation_Cast_Lead">link to wapedia.mobi</a></p>
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		<title>By: Citizen</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/pearl-harbor-continued.html/comment-page-1#comment-103833</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8096#comment-103833</guid>
		<description>According to the Israeli government Israel itself broke the cease fire on November 4
at a time when the average rockets fired into Israel per month had gone from 179 to
3--and all of those three by a Palestinian group that was not controlled by Hamas.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-h-young/how-propaganda-hijacked-i_b_155355.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the Israeli government Israel itself broke the cease fire on November 4<br />
at a time when the average rockets fired into Israel per month had gone from 179 to<br />
3&#8211;and all of those three by a Palestinian group that was not controlled by Hamas.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-h-young/how-propaganda-hijacked-i_b_155355.html">link to huffingtonpost.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Shingo</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/pearl-harbor-continued.html/comment-page-1#comment-103828</link>
		<dc:creator>Shingo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8096#comment-103828</guid>
		<description>Sorry Richard, but you are simply making this up as you go along.

First, Israel vilated the ceasfire from day 1,  having broken the original agreement to lift the blockade, which was one of the fundamental terms of the July 2008 ceasfire agreement.

Israel then violated the ceasefre on November 4th.  The reasons given were so weak, they were clearly false.

There was no restoration of the ceasefire until January 2009.

Having already violated the ceasfire at least once, Israel then waited for 10 days, upon which time it launched an attack it had been planning for 6 months.   What followed was not an Israeli response, but a deliberate escalation that Israel had planned for 6 months or more.

Hamas proposed a return to the ceafire as per the Jult 2008 terms, which Israel rejected.

Israel planned the war for at least 6 months.  The blockade itself was an act of war.  As part of the July ceasefire agreement, it was understood that a sucessful 6 month ceasfire woud be a pre cursor to a much longer ceasfire, but as Tzipi Livni said, a long ceasefire was never going to be in Isrel&#039;s strategic interests.  

Israel wanted the war,. The planned for it, and made it happen as they always do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Richard, but you are simply making this up as you go along.</p>
<p>First, Israel vilated the ceasfire from day 1,  having broken the original agreement to lift the blockade, which was one of the fundamental terms of the July 2008 ceasfire agreement.</p>
<p>Israel then violated the ceasefre on November 4th.  The reasons given were so weak, they were clearly false.</p>
<p>There was no restoration of the ceasefire until January 2009.</p>
<p>Having already violated the ceasfire at least once, Israel then waited for 10 days, upon which time it launched an attack it had been planning for 6 months.   What followed was not an Israeli response, but a deliberate escalation that Israel had planned for 6 months or more.</p>
<p>Hamas proposed a return to the ceafire as per the Jult 2008 terms, which Israel rejected.</p>
<p>Israel planned the war for at least 6 months.  The blockade itself was an act of war.  As part of the July ceasefire agreement, it was understood that a sucessful 6 month ceasfire woud be a pre cursor to a much longer ceasfire, but as Tzipi Livni said, a long ceasefire was never going to be in Isrel&#8217;s strategic interests.  </p>
<p>Israel wanted the war,. The planned for it, and made it happen as they always do.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/pearl-harbor-continued.html/comment-page-1#comment-103804</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 23:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8096#comment-103804</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry Shingo. That is self-talk.

Read the record. On November 4, there was a cease-fire breach. On November 16, the cease-fire was nearly entirely restored, until the formal end of the cease-fire, at which time Hamas incrementally escalated shelling first at desert, then at Sderot, then at Ashkelon, then at Beersheva.

Israel didn&#039;t respond militarily for 10 days. Hamas INSISTED that Israel respond militarily. The only important question that I had was of extent of military response.

Hamas initiated war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry Shingo. That is self-talk.</p>
<p>Read the record. On November 4, there was a cease-fire breach. On November 16, the cease-fire was nearly entirely restored, until the formal end of the cease-fire, at which time Hamas incrementally escalated shelling first at desert, then at Sderot, then at Ashkelon, then at Beersheva.</p>
<p>Israel didn&#8217;t respond militarily for 10 days. Hamas INSISTED that Israel respond militarily. The only important question that I had was of extent of military response.</p>
<p>Hamas initiated war.</p>
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		<title>By: Shingo</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/pearl-harbor-continued.html/comment-page-1#comment-103786</link>
		<dc:creator>Shingo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 21:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8096#comment-103786</guid>
		<description>Exactly thom.

Israel declared war on Gaza two years ago via the blockade, which is an act of war.  Before that, Isrel had fired 7,700 deadly accurate artillery shells into Gaza over a period of 12 months.  That&#039;s more ordinancy that Gaza have fired n 8 years.

You are typical of the Palestinian propagandisyts who woudl have the world believe that history only begins the moment an Israeli is hurt.

When the victim of a rape attack fights back, the rapist dosn&#039;t get to claim self defense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly thom.</p>
<p>Israel declared war on Gaza two years ago via the blockade, which is an act of war.  Before that, Isrel had fired 7,700 deadly accurate artillery shells into Gaza over a period of 12 months.  That&#8217;s more ordinancy that Gaza have fired n 8 years.</p>
<p>You are typical of the Palestinian propagandisyts who woudl have the world believe that history only begins the moment an Israeli is hurt.</p>
<p>When the victim of a rape attack fights back, the rapist dosn&#8217;t get to claim self defense.</p>
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		<title>By: Shingo</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/pearl-harbor-continued.html/comment-page-1#comment-103785</link>
		<dc:creator>Shingo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 21:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8096#comment-103785</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know why you persit with your worn out talking points Richard.  It was Isreal, on November 4th 2008, that decided the ceasefire.  It was going too well and as Tzipi Livni said, an extension of that ceasfire threaten Israel&#039;s strategic interests.

Israel didn&#039;t respond.  It initiated the massacre of Gaza.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know why you persit with your worn out talking points Richard.  It was Isreal, on November 4th 2008, that decided the ceasefire.  It was going too well and as Tzipi Livni said, an extension of that ceasfire threaten Israel&#8217;s strategic interests.</p>
<p>Israel didn&#8217;t respond.  It initiated the massacre of Gaza.</p>
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		<title>By: Thom</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/pearl-harbor-continued.html/comment-page-1#comment-103783</link>
		<dc:creator>Thom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 21:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8096#comment-103783</guid>
		<description>Craig, when a country declares war on you, you get to attack them. The fact that they have weapons that are less deadly or destructive than yours doesn&#039;t give them a license to use them.

You are typical of the Palestinian supporters in that you think &quot;ineffective&quot; or even &quot;less effective&quot; violence is the same thing as non-violence.

When someone is shooting at you, you get to shoot him in self defense, even if he is a lousy shot and you are not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig, when a country declares war on you, you get to attack them. The fact that they have weapons that are less deadly or destructive than yours doesn&#8217;t give them a license to use them.</p>
<p>You are typical of the Palestinian supporters in that you think &#8220;ineffective&#8221; or even &#8220;less effective&#8221; violence is the same thing as non-violence.</p>
<p>When someone is shooting at you, you get to shoot him in self defense, even if he is a lousy shot and you are not.</p>
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		<title>By: Citizen</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/pearl-harbor-continued.html/comment-page-1#comment-103756</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 18:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8096#comment-103756</guid>
		<description>US and Israeli leaders both have major logs in their eyes--here&#039;s &quot;Mister Realist&quot; Bolton on the Daily Show: http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/

Amazing they can&#039;t even look at a world map--say from Iran&#039;s POV. Or Russia&#039;s.

Where are we Americans going, led by such insensitive and arrogant people?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>US and Israeli leaders both have major logs in their eyes&#8211;here&#8217;s &#8220;Mister Realist&#8221; Bolton on the Daily Show: <a href="http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/">link to walt.foreignpolicy.com</a></p>
<p>Amazing they can&#8217;t even look at a world map&#8211;say from Iran&#8217;s POV. Or Russia&#8217;s.</p>
<p>Where are we Americans going, led by such insensitive and arrogant people?</p>
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