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	<title>Comments on: How about, let&#8217;s stop deifying the nation-state</title>
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	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/to-get-to-peace-stop-deifying-the-nation-state.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
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		<title>By: Jordan</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/to-get-to-peace-stop-deifying-the-nation-state.html/comment-page-1#comment-106692</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8603#comment-106692</guid>
		<description>Indeed. This is one of the strongest counter-arguments i hear to in response to proposals for a one-state/no-state solution. I sympathize with it entirely (although many peoples, of course, not just Israelis, have done all sorts of unconscionable things with the levers of power).

It&#039;s just that current dynamics seem to be precluding this (i.e. a fully functional Palestinian nation-state) from materializing ever-more adeptly.

&lt;strong&gt;Given&lt;/strong&gt; that state of affairs, i merely suggest that we open up the whole field for positive debate, and constructive thinking. 

For instance, the whole notion that the Palestinians should be *limited* to a territorially contiguous nation-state, reliant almost entirely on its neighbours for resources, jobs, security, etc. is in fact a colonial product. Why encourage other groups to make the same mistakes colonists made centuries ago?

Unless we look at this for what it is, with a sense of both colonial history and contemporary global trends, there&#039;s no chance for people to think more creatively. We end up falling into the same old traps.

I humbly suggest it&#039;s worth carving out some intellectual space to imagine a more ideal system... and then trace the line backwards to see what can be done today to help bring it about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed. This is one of the strongest counter-arguments i hear to in response to proposals for a one-state/no-state solution. I sympathize with it entirely (although many peoples, of course, not just Israelis, have done all sorts of unconscionable things with the levers of power).</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just that current dynamics seem to be precluding this (i.e. a fully functional Palestinian nation-state) from materializing ever-more adeptly.</p>
<p><strong>Given</strong> that state of affairs, i merely suggest that we open up the whole field for positive debate, and constructive thinking. </p>
<p>For instance, the whole notion that the Palestinians should be *limited* to a territorially contiguous nation-state, reliant almost entirely on its neighbours for resources, jobs, security, etc. is in fact a colonial product. Why encourage other groups to make the same mistakes colonists made centuries ago?</p>
<p>Unless we look at this for what it is, with a sense of both colonial history and contemporary global trends, there&#8217;s no chance for people to think more creatively. We end up falling into the same old traps.</p>
<p>I humbly suggest it&#8217;s worth carving out some intellectual space to imagine a more ideal system&#8230; and then trace the line backwards to see what can be done today to help bring it about.</p>
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		<title>By: Jordan</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/to-get-to-peace-stop-deifying-the-nation-state.html/comment-page-1#comment-106686</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8603#comment-106686</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your thoughts on the piece, Richard.

I generally agree--the situation would change for the better if Israel were &#039;accepted&#039; and a &#039;viable&#039; Palestine were established. 

Whether that would be the best of all possible outcomes, or merely a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&#039;satisficing&#039;&lt;/a&gt; solution is debatable.

My point above is, simply, that the current dynamic seems to be making a &#039;viable&#039; Palestine increasingly unfeasible. 

As a former Zionist, this makes me go back and think--well, wait a minute... what is it that &quot;we&quot; are really after (&quot;we&quot; could be either &#039;the Jews&#039; or &#039;the Palestinians&#039;)?

A state, period? Security? Independence? Ideological coherence? Religious/mythological  fulfillment?

If the current trajectory of the &#039;peace process&#039; is simply creating (or at least perpetuating) more and more suffering--despite the supposed end-goal of two nation-states--why not get creative, analyze the historicity of the situation and think up some new ideas? There&#039;s really not much to lose, and quite a bit (unknown) to gain. That&#039;s essentially it. 

So, maybe we should ask ourselves... what is it about the nation-state model that we think is so worthy of preservation? How can we preserve those values--on &#039;either&#039; side (in reality there are a whole plurality of values and worldviews involved, hence the idea of resurrecting a millet-like system) while also crafting a polity that will provide peace and fulfillment for generations to come? 

Ignoring this last part was a (repeated) folly in 20th century Lebanon. The constitution, let alone the political institutions, couldn&#039;t adapt to changing demographics. The result: years of internecine warfare. 

Why lock ourselves in (the greater &quot;we&quot;, here) to a similarly maladaptive system, then? Isn&#039;t it worth stepping back for a second, and thinking about the &lt;strong&gt; generation &lt;/strong&gt; after, let alone the &lt;strong&gt; day &lt;/strong&gt; after?

Consider it as a forward-thinking mental exercise. If you sense internal resistance, maybe it&#039;s worth asking--wait--who&#039;s line am i emotionally committed to towing, here? Why? ... This applies to all of us, i think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your thoughts on the piece, Richard.</p>
<p>I generally agree&#8211;the situation would change for the better if Israel were &#8216;accepted&#8217; and a &#8216;viable&#8217; Palestine were established. </p>
<p>Whether that would be the best of all possible outcomes, or merely a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing" rel="nofollow">&#8216;satisficing&#8217;</a> solution is debatable.</p>
<p>My point above is, simply, that the current dynamic seems to be making a &#8216;viable&#8217; Palestine increasingly unfeasible. </p>
<p>As a former Zionist, this makes me go back and think&#8211;well, wait a minute&#8230; what is it that &#8220;we&#8221; are really after (&#8220;we&#8221; could be either &#8216;the Jews&#8217; or &#8216;the Palestinians&#8217;)?</p>
<p>A state, period? Security? Independence? Ideological coherence? Religious/mythological  fulfillment?</p>
<p>If the current trajectory of the &#8216;peace process&#8217; is simply creating (or at least perpetuating) more and more suffering&#8211;despite the supposed end-goal of two nation-states&#8211;why not get creative, analyze the historicity of the situation and think up some new ideas? There&#8217;s really not much to lose, and quite a bit (unknown) to gain. That&#8217;s essentially it. </p>
<p>So, maybe we should ask ourselves&#8230; what is it about the nation-state model that we think is so worthy of preservation? How can we preserve those values&#8211;on &#8216;either&#8217; side (in reality there are a whole plurality of values and worldviews involved, hence the idea of resurrecting a millet-like system) while also crafting a polity that will provide peace and fulfillment for generations to come? </p>
<p>Ignoring this last part was a (repeated) folly in 20th century Lebanon. The constitution, let alone the political institutions, couldn&#8217;t adapt to changing demographics. The result: years of internecine warfare. </p>
<p>Why lock ourselves in (the greater &#8220;we&#8221;, here) to a similarly maladaptive system, then? Isn&#8217;t it worth stepping back for a second, and thinking about the <strong> generation </strong> after, let alone the <strong> day </strong> after?</p>
<p>Consider it as a forward-thinking mental exercise. If you sense internal resistance, maybe it&#8217;s worth asking&#8211;wait&#8211;who&#8217;s line am i emotionally committed to towing, here? Why? &#8230; This applies to all of us, i think.</p>
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		<title>By: Jordan</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/to-get-to-peace-stop-deifying-the-nation-state.html/comment-page-1#comment-106655</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8603#comment-106655</guid>
		<description>Julian, your point is well-received. I also appreciate the ad hominem compliments. 

Of course, the ideas in my piece sound jarringly detached from the current reality. The point, however, is more a conceptual one. We&#039;re boxing ourselves in, ideologically. I&#039;m suggesting that this isn&#039;t due to what people really care about (held values regarding identity, security, coherence, etc.), but because we&#039;ve become blindly attached to a very maladaptive idealized polity. 

Phrased less provocatively than in my piece above, i argue, simply, that it&#039;s worth taking a look at why people want(ed) a homogeneous nation-state of their own to begin with. Maybe there are better ways of fulfilling those wants than by chasing the curiously elusive goal of two (nation-)states. 

If the two-state &#039;solution&#039; were in fact to work out, wonderful. That option just seems to be dooming itself of late. Might as well go back to the drawing board--that&#039;s the part that takes a bit of cerebral gymnastics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julian, your point is well-received. I also appreciate the ad hominem compliments. </p>
<p>Of course, the ideas in my piece sound jarringly detached from the current reality. The point, however, is more a conceptual one. We&#8217;re boxing ourselves in, ideologically. I&#8217;m suggesting that this isn&#8217;t due to what people really care about (held values regarding identity, security, coherence, etc.), but because we&#8217;ve become blindly attached to a very maladaptive idealized polity. </p>
<p>Phrased less provocatively than in my piece above, i argue, simply, that it&#8217;s worth taking a look at why people want(ed) a homogeneous nation-state of their own to begin with. Maybe there are better ways of fulfilling those wants than by chasing the curiously elusive goal of two (nation-)states. </p>
<p>If the two-state &#8216;solution&#8217; were in fact to work out, wonderful. That option just seems to be dooming itself of late. Might as well go back to the drawing board&#8211;that&#8217;s the part that takes a bit of cerebral gymnastics.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/to-get-to-peace-stop-deifying-the-nation-state.html/comment-page-1#comment-106306</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:35:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8603#comment-106306</guid>
		<description>&quot;Sorry to intrude with a dose of reality, but Israel is bad for the Jews and worse for the Arabs. &quot;

That would change by acceptance of Israel, and establishment of viable Palestine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sorry to intrude with a dose of reality, but Israel is bad for the Jews and worse for the Arabs. &#8221;</p>
<p>That would change by acceptance of Israel, and establishment of viable Palestine.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Murray</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/to-get-to-peace-stop-deifying-the-nation-state.html/comment-page-1#comment-106283</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 14:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8603#comment-106283</guid>
		<description>It also seems that the best and the brightest tend to leave.

****
&lt;i&gt;According to Prof. Winter, what distinguishes universities in Israel from their counterparts oversees is the lack of research infrastructure in the country, including research budgets, as well as labs and teaching conditions for both students and professors.&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3153786,00.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Brain drain threatens academic future&lt;/a&gt;

****
&lt;i&gt;“The canary in the coal mine is telling us something: that the State of Israel is failing to allow the educated, middle- and upper-middle class a good life here,” said Moav, who co-authored the report with Eric Gold, another Hebrew University economist.&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://jta.org/news/article/2008/03/30/107597/i60braindrain&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Israel struggles with brain drain&lt;/a&gt;

****
&lt;i&gt;However, the question has become why the latest world-class talents would want to live and work in a country in which wars break out every 10 years, governments are replaced every two years and political corruption is breaking records. &lt;/i&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.eetimes.eu/israel/197007599&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Israeli brain drain is cause for concern&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It also seems that the best and the brightest tend to leave.</p>
<p>****<br />
<i>According to Prof. Winter, what distinguishes universities in Israel from their counterparts oversees is the lack of research infrastructure in the country, including research budgets, as well as labs and teaching conditions for both students and professors.</i><br />
<a href="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3153786,00.html" rel="nofollow">Brain drain threatens academic future</a></p>
<p>****<br />
<i>“The canary in the coal mine is telling us something: that the State of Israel is failing to allow the educated, middle- and upper-middle class a good life here,” said Moav, who co-authored the report with Eric Gold, another Hebrew University economist.</i><br />
<a href="http://jta.org/news/article/2008/03/30/107597/i60braindrain" rel="nofollow">Israel struggles with brain drain</a></p>
<p>****<br />
<i>However, the question has become why the latest world-class talents would want to live and work in a country in which wars break out every 10 years, governments are replaced every two years and political corruption is breaking records. </i><br />
<a href="http://www.eetimes.eu/israel/197007599" rel="nofollow">Israeli brain drain is cause for concern</a></p>
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		<title>By: potsherd</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/to-get-to-peace-stop-deifying-the-nation-state.html/comment-page-1#comment-106281</link>
		<dc:creator>potsherd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 14:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8603#comment-106281</guid>
		<description>Life is so good in Israel that it has one of the world&#039;s highest rates of heroin use among teens 12 - 18.    They must be shooting up instead of studying, because Israeli students rank at the bottom.  &quot;In comparison with the 25 OECD countries who participated in the 2006 PISA assessment exams, which test the most important core subjects – math, science, and reading – the average performance of the Jewish population are at the bottom of the list. The performance of Arab Israelis was even worse.&quot;   But 48% of the Israeli student population is now enrolled in either Arab schools or Haredi schools.

Sorry to intrude with a dose of reality, but Israel is bad for the Jews and worse for the Arabs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Life is so good in Israel that it has one of the world&#8217;s highest rates of heroin use among teens 12 &#8211; 18.    They must be shooting up instead of studying, because Israeli students rank at the bottom.  &#8220;In comparison with the 25 OECD countries who participated in the 2006 PISA assessment exams, which test the most important core subjects – math, science, and reading – the average performance of the Jewish population are at the bottom of the list. The performance of Arab Israelis was even worse.&#8221;   But 48% of the Israeli student population is now enrolled in either Arab schools or Haredi schools.</p>
<p>Sorry to intrude with a dose of reality, but Israel is bad for the Jews and worse for the Arabs.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/to-get-to-peace-stop-deifying-the-nation-state.html/comment-page-1#comment-106279</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 13:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8603#comment-106279</guid>
		<description>I absolutely love these ideas.  Israel a first world industrialized country, where life is very good, is  going to give up their country live in a 3rd world country under the Ottoman millet system.  Maybe the US to be fair, should merge with Mexico and go under the millet system also.
This is obviously the musings of a very young and idealistic person.  The reality is the Israelis are not surrendering Israel.  Hopefully some day there will be a Palestinian state in Gaza and the west bank.  5 million Palestinians are not &quot;returning&quot; to Israel.   Perhaps there will be a token few thousand family reunifications of Palestinians coming  to Israel. 
Sorry to intrude with a dose of reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I absolutely love these ideas.  Israel a first world industrialized country, where life is very good, is  going to give up their country live in a 3rd world country under the Ottoman millet system.  Maybe the US to be fair, should merge with Mexico and go under the millet system also.<br />
This is obviously the musings of a very young and idealistic person.  The reality is the Israelis are not surrendering Israel.  Hopefully some day there will be a Palestinian state in Gaza and the west bank.  5 million Palestinians are not &#8220;returning&#8221; to Israel.   Perhaps there will be a token few thousand family reunifications of Palestinians coming  to Israel.<br />
Sorry to intrude with a dose of reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/to-get-to-peace-stop-deifying-the-nation-state.html/comment-page-1#comment-106268</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8603#comment-106268</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m still not sure what you are saying.

Are you parodying my style?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still not sure what you are saying.</p>
<p>Are you parodying my style?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/to-get-to-peace-stop-deifying-the-nation-state.html/comment-page-1#comment-106267</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8603#comment-106267</guid>
		<description>Both Hamas and the IDF escalated in the rush to &quot;cast lead&quot;.

Please don&#039;t ignore the often opportunistic manner in which militant groups assert their &quot;leadership&quot; relative to the common opponent.

Hamas&#039; escalation ignored the needs of the community that they claimed to be serving, and the advice of the leadership within that community, in preference for the hotheads in Syria and Gaza youth. (20 somethings determined the policy that led to the escalation. 40 somethings opposed it.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both Hamas and the IDF escalated in the rush to &#8220;cast lead&#8221;.</p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t ignore the often opportunistic manner in which militant groups assert their &#8220;leadership&#8221; relative to the common opponent.</p>
<p>Hamas&#8217; escalation ignored the needs of the community that they claimed to be serving, and the advice of the leadership within that community, in preference for the hotheads in Syria and Gaza youth. (20 somethings determined the policy that led to the escalation. 40 somethings opposed it.)</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/to-get-to-peace-stop-deifying-the-nation-state.html/comment-page-1#comment-106266</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8603#comment-106266</guid>
		<description>Make a proposal for international sovereignty. Work to make it happen.

I also consider the UN not an optimal vehicle of international governance, for similar reasons related to the security council.

The US formed into a federation and then a state of states, from need relative to international finance and a common enemy.

With international institutions, there is no common enemy, just us, whole. It therefore takes persuasion (that word again) to form institutional change.

You&#039;d have to have a MUCH BETTER idea, in order for the world to willingly unravel what exists for the prospect of something better.

Its a need, but not yet an answer. The class relations of the UN is not the only respect that it is dysfunctional.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Make a proposal for international sovereignty. Work to make it happen.</p>
<p>I also consider the UN not an optimal vehicle of international governance, for similar reasons related to the security council.</p>
<p>The US formed into a federation and then a state of states, from need relative to international finance and a common enemy.</p>
<p>With international institutions, there is no common enemy, just us, whole. It therefore takes persuasion (that word again) to form institutional change.</p>
<p>You&#8217;d have to have a MUCH BETTER idea, in order for the world to willingly unravel what exists for the prospect of something better.</p>
<p>Its a need, but not yet an answer. The class relations of the UN is not the only respect that it is dysfunctional.</p>
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