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	<title>Comments on: Uri Avnery is against BDS</title>
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	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/uri-avnery-is-against-bds.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
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		<title>By: The Silliness of Ethan Bronner &#124; Jewbonics</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/uri-avnery-is-against-bds.html/comment-page-1#comment-106830</link>
		<dc:creator>The Silliness of Ethan Bronner &#124; Jewbonics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:46:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8590#comment-106830</guid>
		<description>[...] Paymaster Obama  &quot;urge[s]&quot; that it stop, so that &quot;peace negotiations&quot; can go on. And Uri Avneri burbles that the BDS campaign will simply drive Israelis into the arms of the hard-right. Last I checked [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Paymaster Obama  &quot;urge[s]&quot; that it stop, so that &quot;peace negotiations&quot; can go on. And Uri Avneri burbles that the BDS campaign will simply drive Israelis into the arms of the hard-right. Last I checked [...]</p>
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		<title>By: anomalous</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/uri-avnery-is-against-bds.html/comment-page-1#comment-106388</link>
		<dc:creator>anomalous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 22:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8590#comment-106388</guid>
		<description>I see a lot of this discussion being bogged down in the usual tangential, irrelevant bullshit that zionists  like to slather on top of every discussion.  

Uri Avnery is against the boycott movement.  As I mentioned above, he is also - and far more importantly, I would say - opposed to the Right of Return.   This means that Avnery is, by definition and quite like the vast majority of Israelis, adamantly opposed to the idea that Israel must abide by international law.   Why? Because Jews are special.   Or in his quaint formulation above: &quot;Peoples are not the same everywhere.&quot;   This sentiment, unfortunately, shares much in common with that of Rabbi Perrin, who famously announced that &quot;One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.&quot;   

Avnery has maintained that the Right of Return is unacceptable simply because Jews in Israel will not accept it.    One has to wonder what kind of person would actually try to argue that the ambient racism of his country somehow magically exempts them from international law and universal standards of human rights.    As if there were a right to be racist, and as if that imaginary Jewish right to be racist led to a de facto right to engage in cleansing, or a right to pursue genocide.   There is not a right to be racist, just as there is no right of states to create and maintain racial demographics, or to confer political rights on one ethnic group while imposing racial subjugation on all others.  

Apparently it must be reiterated that the problem is not international law or the universal tenets of human rights, but the racism of Jews who endorse zionism.   

The law exists as an alternative to naked violence.  To the extent that Israel refuses, decade after decade after decade, to abide by international law, Israel loses the right to object to the application of naked violence against it.    The sanctions movement exists as a last-ditch attempt to legitimize Israel - to bring it into some even marginal compliance with universal norms of tolerable conduct.  

I support the sanctions movement, but doubt that it will be sufficient to save Israel from it&#039;s own fanatical race towards self-destruction.  Why? Because, in the words of the omnipresent racist above, &quot;The Zionist vision will not change.&quot;    The Zionism plan to seize and ethnically cleanse Palestine led, quite predictably, to the seizure of most of Palestine and the ethnic cleansing of 85% of the non-Jewish populaiton in 1948.  This was a criminal, racist and entirely indefensible project then, and it remains so today, even as the criminal land seizure and ethnic cleansing have continued, day after day, over the 60 years since the establishemnt of Israel.   This zionist vision will not change, and tribal fanatics around the world, as we can see from the squealing above, will continue to shriek and wail and go ballistic in order to defend that indefensible process until the last non-Jew within a thousand miles in any direction of Israel is dead.   As long as Zionism continues to be tolerated as a moral, acceptable political ideology, this conflict will not end, and the animosities and grievances of every one of Israel&#039;s neighbors will inevitably continue to grow.  

There will come a point at which we will have to ask ourselves whether continuing to coddle the racial hysteria of this fanatical ultra-minority within a minority - less than one tenth of 1% of the human population - requires the complete paralysis of the entire planet&#039;s  political, moral and legal apparatus.  Do the militant racist fantasies and real estate ambitions of 5 million Jews in Israel really merit this kind of international deference, particularly when we consider the immediate and corrosive effects these fanatical colonists have on the hundreds of millions of non-Jews who have the misfortune of living anywhere in the vicinity of this little ethnic cleansing machine?

People are free to think whatever disgusting genocidal racist bullshit they want.  But people, like states, are not free to engage in ethnic cleansing, genocide, mass racial subjugation, or any of the other goals of the zionist project, withought facing political, legal and moral consequences.

I understand that Avnery has fought his whole life, without success, for a less overtly genocidal iteration of zionism.   He does this, in large part, judging from his own statements, that Jews should be nicer because its good for the jews.   This is just racism.

Avnery&#039;s argument, which is basically the argument of that genre of zionism that likes to call itself &quot;post-zionist, or left zionist, is that not only are Jews so special that they get to spray flesh-eating chemical weapons over some of the most densely populated cities on earth, where the average population is about 14;  no, Jews are so VERY special that they should be able to do that, and worse, without anyone else on earth saying a peep about it.  And if they do, well, they just don&#039;t understand how special jews are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see a lot of this discussion being bogged down in the usual tangential, irrelevant bullshit that zionists  like to slather on top of every discussion.  </p>
<p>Uri Avnery is against the boycott movement.  As I mentioned above, he is also &#8211; and far more importantly, I would say &#8211; opposed to the Right of Return.   This means that Avnery is, by definition and quite like the vast majority of Israelis, adamantly opposed to the idea that Israel must abide by international law.   Why? Because Jews are special.   Or in his quaint formulation above: &#8220;Peoples are not the same everywhere.&#8221;   This sentiment, unfortunately, shares much in common with that of Rabbi Perrin, who famously announced that &#8220;One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.&#8221;   </p>
<p>Avnery has maintained that the Right of Return is unacceptable simply because Jews in Israel will not accept it.    One has to wonder what kind of person would actually try to argue that the ambient racism of his country somehow magically exempts them from international law and universal standards of human rights.    As if there were a right to be racist, and as if that imaginary Jewish right to be racist led to a de facto right to engage in cleansing, or a right to pursue genocide.   There is not a right to be racist, just as there is no right of states to create and maintain racial demographics, or to confer political rights on one ethnic group while imposing racial subjugation on all others.  </p>
<p>Apparently it must be reiterated that the problem is not international law or the universal tenets of human rights, but the racism of Jews who endorse zionism.   </p>
<p>The law exists as an alternative to naked violence.  To the extent that Israel refuses, decade after decade after decade, to abide by international law, Israel loses the right to object to the application of naked violence against it.    The sanctions movement exists as a last-ditch attempt to legitimize Israel &#8211; to bring it into some even marginal compliance with universal norms of tolerable conduct.  </p>
<p>I support the sanctions movement, but doubt that it will be sufficient to save Israel from it&#8217;s own fanatical race towards self-destruction.  Why? Because, in the words of the omnipresent racist above, &#8220;The Zionist vision will not change.&#8221;    The Zionism plan to seize and ethnically cleanse Palestine led, quite predictably, to the seizure of most of Palestine and the ethnic cleansing of 85% of the non-Jewish populaiton in 1948.  This was a criminal, racist and entirely indefensible project then, and it remains so today, even as the criminal land seizure and ethnic cleansing have continued, day after day, over the 60 years since the establishemnt of Israel.   This zionist vision will not change, and tribal fanatics around the world, as we can see from the squealing above, will continue to shriek and wail and go ballistic in order to defend that indefensible process until the last non-Jew within a thousand miles in any direction of Israel is dead.   As long as Zionism continues to be tolerated as a moral, acceptable political ideology, this conflict will not end, and the animosities and grievances of every one of Israel&#8217;s neighbors will inevitably continue to grow.  </p>
<p>There will come a point at which we will have to ask ourselves whether continuing to coddle the racial hysteria of this fanatical ultra-minority within a minority &#8211; less than one tenth of 1% of the human population &#8211; requires the complete paralysis of the entire planet&#8217;s  political, moral and legal apparatus.  Do the militant racist fantasies and real estate ambitions of 5 million Jews in Israel really merit this kind of international deference, particularly when we consider the immediate and corrosive effects these fanatical colonists have on the hundreds of millions of non-Jews who have the misfortune of living anywhere in the vicinity of this little ethnic cleansing machine?</p>
<p>People are free to think whatever disgusting genocidal racist bullshit they want.  But people, like states, are not free to engage in ethnic cleansing, genocide, mass racial subjugation, or any of the other goals of the zionist project, withought facing political, legal and moral consequences.</p>
<p>I understand that Avnery has fought his whole life, without success, for a less overtly genocidal iteration of zionism.   He does this, in large part, judging from his own statements, that Jews should be nicer because its good for the jews.   This is just racism.</p>
<p>Avnery&#8217;s argument, which is basically the argument of that genre of zionism that likes to call itself &#8220;post-zionist, or left zionist, is that not only are Jews so special that they get to spray flesh-eating chemical weapons over some of the most densely populated cities on earth, where the average population is about 14;  no, Jews are so VERY special that they should be able to do that, and worse, without anyone else on earth saying a peep about it.  And if they do, well, they just don&#8217;t understand how special jews are.</p>
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		<title>By: Margaret</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/uri-avnery-is-against-bds.html/comment-page-1#comment-106349</link>
		<dc:creator>Margaret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:12:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8590#comment-106349</guid>
		<description>The addition of other voices here is wonderful to see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The addition of other voices here is wonderful to see.</p>
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		<title>By: Margaret</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/uri-avnery-is-against-bds.html/comment-page-1#comment-106345</link>
		<dc:creator>Margaret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8590#comment-106345</guid>
		<description>Rw: &lt;i&gt;&quot;The concept of consent of the governed is important. If not attention is brought to invite the participation or concerns of Zionists to a table, then the design will exclude the current majority.&quot;

The governed include all sides.  The views and needs of one side have dominated.  The aspirations and successes, as well as the fears and defense, of one side have dominated.  

I view your example of a couple of recent conferences in the context of a history in which the dominate concern has been of those whom you consider &quot;functionally excluded&quot;. 

Including another&#039;s perspective is not an act of exclusion.





What one experiences does dominate one&#039;s perceptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rw: <i>&#8220;The concept of consent of the governed is important. If not attention is brought to invite the participation or concerns of Zionists to a table, then the design will exclude the current majority.&#8221;</p>
<p>The governed include all sides.  The views and needs of one side have dominated.  The aspirations and successes, as well as the fears and defense, of one side have dominated.  </p>
<p>I view your example of a couple of recent conferences in the context of a history in which the dominate concern has been of those whom you consider &#8220;functionally excluded&#8221;. </p>
<p>Including another&#8217;s perspective is not an act of exclusion.</p>
<p>What one experiences does dominate one&#8217;s perceptions.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/uri-avnery-is-against-bds.html/comment-page-1#comment-106343</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8590#comment-106343</guid>
		<description>Tree,
First of all, thanks for the welcome.  I agree that the only real hope for peace lies in movements like the ones I mentioned, which comprise Israeli Jews and Palestinians (Israeli citizens and residents of the OT) working together for equality and justice in I/P.  The anti-war demonstrations in Tel-Aviv in Dec-Jan were quite impressive, considering what the demonstrators were up against, and I was extremely pleased when our local anti-war demo (here in &quot;Old Europe&quot;) singled them out for support and solidarity, getting a big cheer from the crowd.  If they exist at all, it is due to the work done by Uri Avnery and others of his generation, who radicalised Israelis, but are often unable to go beyond a certain point.  Academics like Neve Gordon are also extremely encouraging, and he is by no means the only one.  They are saying things that would have been completely unthinkable only a few years ago.  Gordon is being vilified, for sure, but he is not being given the Shlaim or Pappe treatment.  These guys need our help and support, and I see BDS as part of that effort.  Radicalise more Israelis, convince moderate Peace Now supporters that Ta&#039;ayush and ICAHD are not beyond the pale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tree,<br />
First of all, thanks for the welcome.  I agree that the only real hope for peace lies in movements like the ones I mentioned, which comprise Israeli Jews and Palestinians (Israeli citizens and residents of the OT) working together for equality and justice in I/P.  The anti-war demonstrations in Tel-Aviv in Dec-Jan were quite impressive, considering what the demonstrators were up against, and I was extremely pleased when our local anti-war demo (here in &#8220;Old Europe&#8221;) singled them out for support and solidarity, getting a big cheer from the crowd.  If they exist at all, it is due to the work done by Uri Avnery and others of his generation, who radicalised Israelis, but are often unable to go beyond a certain point.  Academics like Neve Gordon are also extremely encouraging, and he is by no means the only one.  They are saying things that would have been completely unthinkable only a few years ago.  Gordon is being vilified, for sure, but he is not being given the Shlaim or Pappe treatment.  These guys need our help and support, and I see BDS as part of that effort.  Radicalise more Israelis, convince moderate Peace Now supporters that Ta&#8217;ayush and ICAHD are not beyond the pale.</p>
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		<title>By: America First</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/uri-avnery-is-against-bds.html/comment-page-1#comment-106337</link>
		<dc:creator>America First</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8590#comment-106337</guid>
		<description>The sort of discourse Harvey wants requires a certain good faith on all parts.  If Witty believes that applying BDS to Israel is anti-Semitic and evil, but has no problem with sanctions on Iran or now the Israeli boycott of Sweden, I don&#039;t see that as discourse.  I see that as a naked expression of his own tribalism, the only effective response to which is for others to develop their own opposing tribablism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sort of discourse Harvey wants requires a certain good faith on all parts.  If Witty believes that applying BDS to Israel is anti-Semitic and evil, but has no problem with sanctions on Iran or now the Israeli boycott of Sweden, I don&#8217;t see that as discourse.  I see that as a naked expression of his own tribalism, the only effective response to which is for others to develop their own opposing tribablism.</p>
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		<title>By: Citizen</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/uri-avnery-is-against-bds.html/comment-page-1#comment-106335</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8590#comment-106335</guid>
		<description>Does Israeli activity  motivate the Palestinians as far as Israel incorporating the views and needs of their opponents into the design process? What&#039;s good for the goose, is good for the gander.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does Israeli activity  motivate the Palestinians as far as Israel incorporating the views and needs of their opponents into the design process? What&#8217;s good for the goose, is good for the gander.</p>
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		<title>By: Citizen</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/uri-avnery-is-against-bds.html/comment-page-1#comment-106332</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8590#comment-106332</guid>
		<description>Since you speak for all Israelis, Richard Witty, and you say they will not yield to force of any kind, you won&#039;t mind if Obama cuts off all USA aid to Israel and cancels the
memorandum agreements the USA has with Israel, and no longer vetoes all resolutions in the UN against Israeli activities?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since you speak for all Israelis, Richard Witty, and you say they will not yield to force of any kind, you won&#8217;t mind if Obama cuts off all USA aid to Israel and cancels the<br />
memorandum agreements the USA has with Israel, and no longer vetoes all resolutions in the UN against Israeli activities?</p>
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		<title>By: Citizen</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/uri-avnery-is-against-bds.html/comment-page-1#comment-106330</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8590#comment-106330</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure the Palestinians make some uncomfortable, but it&#039;s torture for the Palestinians. Should we keep smacking them? I&#039;d rather smack the Israelis but
I won&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure the Palestinians make some uncomfortable, but it&#8217;s torture for the Palestinians. Should we keep smacking them? I&#8217;d rather smack the Israelis but<br />
I won&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Citizen</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/uri-avnery-is-against-bds.html/comment-page-1#comment-106329</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=8590#comment-106329</guid>
		<description>A fact, unlike an opinion, is not subject to subjectivity. A fact is like shit, it exists as it is sans opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A fact, unlike an opinion, is not subject to subjectivity. A fact is like shit, it exists as it is sans opinion.</p>
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