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	<title>Comments on: Falk: Goldstone is historic blow in the war Israel is losing&#8211; the &#8216;Legitimacy War&#8217;</title>
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	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/09/falk-goldstone-bombshell-will-fray-jewish-support-for-israel.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
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		<title>By: Devastating Report Documents Israeli Crimes Against Civilians in Gaza: Where&#8217;s the Outrage? &#124; War On You: Breaking Alternative News</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/09/falk-goldstone-bombshell-will-fray-jewish-support-for-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-112581</link>
		<dc:creator>Devastating Report Documents Israeli Crimes Against Civilians in Gaza: Where&#8217;s the Outrage? &#124; War On You: Breaking Alternative News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 04:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=9287#comment-112581</guid>
		<description>[...] humanity.&#8221; International law expert (and Nation editorial board member) Richard Falk has concluded that &#8220;no credible international commission could reach any set of conclusions other than [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] humanity.&#8221; International law expert (and Nation editorial board member) Richard Falk has concluded that &#8220;no credible international commission could reach any set of conclusions other than [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Leonard Cohen Seeks Reconciliation At Apartheid Bank Discount &#187; Artists Against Apartheid - Witness the True Emancipatory Struggle</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/09/falk-goldstone-bombshell-will-fray-jewish-support-for-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-110091</link>
		<dc:creator>Leonard Cohen Seeks Reconciliation At Apartheid Bank Discount &#187; Artists Against Apartheid - Witness the True Emancipatory Struggle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 12:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=9287#comment-110091</guid>
		<description>[...] has been a difficult year in public relations for Israel (See &#8216;Toronto Declaration&#8216; and Goldstone Report), but one trend that has helped normalize the apartheid state are appearances by big artists like [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] has been a difficult year in public relations for Israel (See &#8216;Toronto Declaration&#8216; and Goldstone Report), but one trend that has helped normalize the apartheid state are appearances by big artists like [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gaza Digest&#160;&#124;&#160;PINKtank</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/09/falk-goldstone-bombshell-will-fray-jewish-support-for-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-109980</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaza Digest&#160;&#124;&#160;PINKtank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=9287#comment-109980</guid>
		<description>[...] On Mondoweiss Phil Weiss reprinted in full a letter from Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on human [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] On Mondoweiss Phil Weiss reprinted in full a letter from Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on human [...]</p>
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		<title>By: potsherd</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/09/falk-goldstone-bombshell-will-fray-jewish-support-for-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-109945</link>
		<dc:creator>potsherd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=9287#comment-109945</guid>
		<description>If the UN had conducted such a study of the war crimes in Israel&#039;s 2006 invasion of Lebanon, with similar recommendations, the Gaza incursion might not have taken place.  It has been appalling to watch why the world stood by and allowed the attack on Lebanon to happen (while bloodthirsty Cheney whipped the IDF on to attack Syria).

In the absence of such a report, the IDF learned two lessons:  first, that they could get away with murder.  Second, the lesson that they internalized and put into practice in Gaza, was that they needed to kill more civilians and minimize their own casualties, which led to political fallout at home.   Operation Cast Lead was a military exercise testing this hypothesis.

The excuse that &quot;Israel has the right to defend itself&quot; was accepted in the case of Lebanon, so it is little wonder that it was dragged out again to excuse the massacre of Gaza.  One evil leads to another when the world stands by and does nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the UN had conducted such a study of the war crimes in Israel&#8217;s 2006 invasion of Lebanon, with similar recommendations, the Gaza incursion might not have taken place.  It has been appalling to watch why the world stood by and allowed the attack on Lebanon to happen (while bloodthirsty Cheney whipped the IDF on to attack Syria).</p>
<p>In the absence of such a report, the IDF learned two lessons:  first, that they could get away with murder.  Second, the lesson that they internalized and put into practice in Gaza, was that they needed to kill more civilians and minimize their own casualties, which led to political fallout at home.   Operation Cast Lead was a military exercise testing this hypothesis.</p>
<p>The excuse that &#8220;Israel has the right to defend itself&#8221; was accepted in the case of Lebanon, so it is little wonder that it was dragged out again to excuse the massacre of Gaza.  One evil leads to another when the world stands by and does nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: David Samel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/09/falk-goldstone-bombshell-will-fray-jewish-support-for-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-109941</link>
		<dc:creator>David Samel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=9287#comment-109941</guid>
		<description>Falk&#039;s analysis is excellent, especially with regard to these facts being previously known, yet the great significance and potential threat to Israel of their compilation in this report.

Two points of slight disagreement.  The Fact Finding Mission&#039;s mandate was to investigate &quot;violations of  international human rights law and international humanitarian law,&quot; so it seems that the question of whether the entire operation was legitimate self-defense or naked aggression seems beyond its scope.  Still, it is quite significant that this extremely important issue, which I think should be resolved against Israel, is presumed in Israel&#039;s favor.  In other words, the report gives Israel a huge undeserved break.  (Uri&#039;s link to Victor Kattan&#039;s analysis is a must-read on this issue.)

Second, Falk criticizes the report for paying undue attention to Shalit and recommending his release while ignoring Israel&#039;s thousands of prisoners.  However, most of the references to Shalit are quite compelling, as they repeatedly criticize Israel for imposing collective punishment on the Gaza population for his detention.  Shalit&#039;s detention is much more significant in the entire conflict because Israel has used it is an excuse to blockade goods from 1.5 million people.  It is true that his life had no more or less value than any of those imprisoned in Israeli prisons, but I am not at all offended at the conclusion that he should be released.  On the whole, the Shalit issue is treated appropriately by the report, with emphasis on the evil of collective punishment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Falk&#8217;s analysis is excellent, especially with regard to these facts being previously known, yet the great significance and potential threat to Israel of their compilation in this report.</p>
<p>Two points of slight disagreement.  The Fact Finding Mission&#8217;s mandate was to investigate &#8220;violations of  international human rights law and international humanitarian law,&#8221; so it seems that the question of whether the entire operation was legitimate self-defense or naked aggression seems beyond its scope.  Still, it is quite significant that this extremely important issue, which I think should be resolved against Israel, is presumed in Israel&#8217;s favor.  In other words, the report gives Israel a huge undeserved break.  (Uri&#8217;s link to Victor Kattan&#8217;s analysis is a must-read on this issue.)</p>
<p>Second, Falk criticizes the report for paying undue attention to Shalit and recommending his release while ignoring Israel&#8217;s thousands of prisoners.  However, most of the references to Shalit are quite compelling, as they repeatedly criticize Israel for imposing collective punishment on the Gaza population for his detention.  Shalit&#8217;s detention is much more significant in the entire conflict because Israel has used it is an excuse to blockade goods from 1.5 million people.  It is true that his life had no more or less value than any of those imprisoned in Israeli prisons, but I am not at all offended at the conclusion that he should be released.  On the whole, the Shalit issue is treated appropriately by the report, with emphasis on the evil of collective punishment.</p>
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		<title>By: Uri</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/09/falk-goldstone-bombshell-will-fray-jewish-support-for-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-109935</link>
		<dc:creator>Uri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=9287#comment-109935</guid>
		<description>on the question of whether israel committed aggression, which may be more important than whether it violated international humanitarian law, the following article by victor kattan, written back in january, appears to me to hit the nail on the head. 

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2009/01/gaza-not-war-of-self-defense.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>on the question of whether israel committed aggression, which may be more important than whether it violated international humanitarian law, the following article by victor kattan, written back in january, appears to me to hit the nail on the head. </p>
<p><a href="http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2009/01/gaza-not-war-of-self-defense.php">link to jurist.law.pitt.edu</a></p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/09/falk-goldstone-bombshell-will-fray-jewish-support-for-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-109930</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=9287#comment-109930</guid>
		<description>Are you able to view the whole page when opening up the blog site?

I can&#039;t. I also can&#039;t view prior posts. Can you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you able to view the whole page when opening up the blog site?</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t. I also can&#8217;t view prior posts. Can you?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/09/falk-goldstone-bombshell-will-fray-jewish-support-for-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-109929</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=9287#comment-109929</guid>
		<description>In the Israeli press and in Israeli defense circles, there is wide regard that both the Lebanon action of 2006 and the Gaza action of 2008 are a success, in that for the first time, offensive actions against Israeli civilians have stopped for an extended period.

They doubt that Hamas and Hezbollah had a change of heart.

They also site that the Arab world has issued few and relatively moderate complaints about the actions, compared to prior situations.


The situation is a dilemma for a liberal Zionist, as it is unpalatable to support or appear to support likud&#039;s approach of incremental annexation.

And, it is unpalatable to support or appear to support Hamas&#039; terror and propagation of hate.

And, it is increasingly unpalatable to support even indirectly the agenda of the regime in Iran.

I would expect the more left wing to have and to express those quandries as well.


I don&#039;t see success in getting either the Arab world on the run, or Israel on the run. And, the current political setting is that. Those that end up functionally articulating Hamas&#039; thesis re: Israel, agitate for war.

It is in others&#039; home, not our own, and amounts to a comparable chicken-hawk approach to what is criticized when articulated by neo-conservatives (rightly).

I don&#039;t hear the insistence on reform as goal of this report, but only of rage at the politics of it. I haven&#039;t heard a word from Hamas, that they will reform their methods in accordance with international law, and I haven&#039;t heard a word from Adam or Phil indicating that they consider that of any consequence.

My thesis on the Hamas behavior, as I&#039;ve said, was that it appeared to me that they desired, insisted, that Israel respond militarily, to have PR points in the Arab and dissenting world for its own street cred. That that strategy either intentionally or negligently used Gaza civilians as &quot;human shields&quot; in a general sense (not in the sense of individually blocking fire).

I see three possible attitudes towards this report, relative to the question of the actual politics and PR war.

1. Solely condemnation of Israel - Thereby contributing to the functional human sheild strategy of Hamas, in the odd twist of the Gandhian maxim - &quot;the purpose of civil disobedience is to evoke a response, an excessive response&quot;
2. Solely condemnatory of Hamas - Thereby granting Israel absence of accountability internally or externally for its actions and policies and absence of motivation for reform
3. Witness - Identification of the cyclical nature of the conflict (an escalating dialectic, an infection that hurts periodically but is never healed)

It certainly is horribly frustrating to observe the appearance of denial on the part of the Israeli military. And, on Israel&#039;s side, it is horribly frustrating to observe the appearance of partisan and inconsistent application of human rights law.
3.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the Israeli press and in Israeli defense circles, there is wide regard that both the Lebanon action of 2006 and the Gaza action of 2008 are a success, in that for the first time, offensive actions against Israeli civilians have stopped for an extended period.</p>
<p>They doubt that Hamas and Hezbollah had a change of heart.</p>
<p>They also site that the Arab world has issued few and relatively moderate complaints about the actions, compared to prior situations.</p>
<p>The situation is a dilemma for a liberal Zionist, as it is unpalatable to support or appear to support likud&#8217;s approach of incremental annexation.</p>
<p>And, it is unpalatable to support or appear to support Hamas&#8217; terror and propagation of hate.</p>
<p>And, it is increasingly unpalatable to support even indirectly the agenda of the regime in Iran.</p>
<p>I would expect the more left wing to have and to express those quandries as well.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see success in getting either the Arab world on the run, or Israel on the run. And, the current political setting is that. Those that end up functionally articulating Hamas&#8217; thesis re: Israel, agitate for war.</p>
<p>It is in others&#8217; home, not our own, and amounts to a comparable chicken-hawk approach to what is criticized when articulated by neo-conservatives (rightly).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t hear the insistence on reform as goal of this report, but only of rage at the politics of it. I haven&#8217;t heard a word from Hamas, that they will reform their methods in accordance with international law, and I haven&#8217;t heard a word from Adam or Phil indicating that they consider that of any consequence.</p>
<p>My thesis on the Hamas behavior, as I&#8217;ve said, was that it appeared to me that they desired, insisted, that Israel respond militarily, to have PR points in the Arab and dissenting world for its own street cred. That that strategy either intentionally or negligently used Gaza civilians as &#8220;human shields&#8221; in a general sense (not in the sense of individually blocking fire).</p>
<p>I see three possible attitudes towards this report, relative to the question of the actual politics and PR war.</p>
<p>1. Solely condemnation of Israel &#8211; Thereby contributing to the functional human sheild strategy of Hamas, in the odd twist of the Gandhian maxim &#8211; &#8220;the purpose of civil disobedience is to evoke a response, an excessive response&#8221;<br />
2. Solely condemnatory of Hamas &#8211; Thereby granting Israel absence of accountability internally or externally for its actions and policies and absence of motivation for reform<br />
3. Witness &#8211; Identification of the cyclical nature of the conflict (an escalating dialectic, an infection that hurts periodically but is never healed)</p>
<p>It certainly is horribly frustrating to observe the appearance of denial on the part of the Israeli military. And, on Israel&#8217;s side, it is horribly frustrating to observe the appearance of partisan and inconsistent application of human rights law.<br />
3.</p>
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		<title>By: Tuyzentfloot</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/09/falk-goldstone-bombshell-will-fray-jewish-support-for-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-109927</link>
		<dc:creator>Tuyzentfloot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=9287#comment-109927</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;RE: “And in many ways the Goldstone Report endorses the misleading main line of the Israeli narrative by assuming that Israel was acting in self-defense against a terrorist adversary”&lt;/i&gt;
One of my pet peeves is about what happens when people make the strategic choice to compromise on some controversial arguments in order to get one point across.  It&#039;s not a bad decision, but I hate the outcome which is comparable to drowning out truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>RE: “And in many ways the Goldstone Report endorses the misleading main line of the Israeli narrative by assuming that Israel was acting in self-defense against a terrorist adversary”</i><br />
One of my pet peeves is about what happens when people make the strategic choice to compromise on some controversial arguments in order to get one point across.  It&#8217;s not a bad decision, but I hate the outcome which is comparable to drowning out truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Citizen</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/09/falk-goldstone-bombshell-will-fray-jewish-support-for-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-109923</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=9287#comment-109923</guid>
		<description>And also in this context: &quot;The important points come near the end: that the rather conservative findings of the report (and its acceptance of Israel’s dubious right to self-defense–dubious because Gaza is effectively occupied)&quot;--Phil</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And also in this context: &#8220;The important points come near the end: that the rather conservative findings of the report (and its acceptance of Israel’s dubious right to self-defense–dubious because Gaza is effectively occupied)&#8221;&#8211;Phil</p>
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