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	<title>Comments on: At NYU, devilish Shlomo Sand predicts the Jewish past and pastes the Zionists</title>
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	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/at-nyu-devilish-shlomo-sand-predicts-the-jewish-past-and-pastes-the-zionists.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
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		<title>By: aront</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/at-nyu-devilish-shlomo-sand-predicts-the-jewish-past-and-pastes-the-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-128357</link>
		<dc:creator>aront</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 19:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10095#comment-128357</guid>
		<description>Woops. Forgot the link:

http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Woops. Forgot the link:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm">link to jogg.info</a></p>
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		<title>By: aront</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/at-nyu-devilish-shlomo-sand-predicts-the-jewish-past-and-pastes-the-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-128355</link>
		<dc:creator>aront</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 19:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10095#comment-128355</guid>
		<description>Wondering Jew asked for scientific &quot;evidence.&quot; Here is an article in a genetics journal which re-evaluates earlier studies and provides genetic evidence  regarding the Khazar theory.

In any case, let us remember, folks that science is about theories not &quot;truth.&quot; Moreover biology is still far from physics and is not yet a predictive science. To say that geneticists have &quot;proven&quot; anything one way or another about ancient historical events is to misunderstand and misuse science. In particular, Jews should be very leary of bandying about science as &quot;proof&quot; of any racial theory.

History is even less about truth. It is about narrative and stories people tell one another about events of long ago. These stories have limited possibility to be&quot;true&quot; in a factual sense , since only rarely, if we are lucky, do we have eye-witness accounts (and even then, we all know how reliable &lt;i&gt;those&lt;/i&gt; are). 

Rather, histories may contain human truths, or perhaps more usefully, authentically resonate with their audiences and convey deeper meanings about the human condition that strike us as real and useful. I would hope that as a historian Sand isn&#039;t claiming he is providing scientific &quot;truth.&quot; He is (hopefully) only claiming that there is an alternative narrative, an alternative story about the origins of the Jewish people which is just as legitimate and authentic as the Zionist narrative. This alternative story allows all Israelis to  identify with and develop the unique culture of the country Israel, in a way which is more democratic and inclusive than the Zionist narrative of Jewish history and the current foundation myth of Israel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wondering Jew asked for scientific &#8220;evidence.&#8221; Here is an article in a genetics journal which re-evaluates earlier studies and provides genetic evidence  regarding the Khazar theory.</p>
<p>In any case, let us remember, folks that science is about theories not &#8220;truth.&#8221; Moreover biology is still far from physics and is not yet a predictive science. To say that geneticists have &#8220;proven&#8221; anything one way or another about ancient historical events is to misunderstand and misuse science. In particular, Jews should be very leary of bandying about science as &#8220;proof&#8221; of any racial theory.</p>
<p>History is even less about truth. It is about narrative and stories people tell one another about events of long ago. These stories have limited possibility to be&#8221;true&#8221; in a factual sense , since only rarely, if we are lucky, do we have eye-witness accounts (and even then, we all know how reliable <i>those</i> are). </p>
<p>Rather, histories may contain human truths, or perhaps more usefully, authentically resonate with their audiences and convey deeper meanings about the human condition that strike us as real and useful. I would hope that as a historian Sand isn&#8217;t claiming he is providing scientific &#8220;truth.&#8221; He is (hopefully) only claiming that there is an alternative narrative, an alternative story about the origins of the Jewish people which is just as legitimate and authentic as the Zionist narrative. This alternative story allows all Israelis to  identify with and develop the unique culture of the country Israel, in a way which is more democratic and inclusive than the Zionist narrative of Jewish history and the current foundation myth of Israel.</p>
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		<title>By: On Sand and Israeli intermarriage - Haviv Rettig Gur</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/at-nyu-devilish-shlomo-sand-predicts-the-jewish-past-and-pastes-the-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-116994</link>
		<dc:creator>On Sand and Israeli intermarriage - Haviv Rettig Gur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 00:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10095#comment-116994</guid>
		<description>[...] On Sand and Israeli intermarriage Oct 21 Israel  Self-described anti-Zionist Philip Weiss learned something from my posting on his love of Shlomo Sand. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] On Sand and Israeli intermarriage Oct 21 Israel  Self-described anti-Zionist Philip Weiss learned something from my posting on his love of Shlomo Sand. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Citizen</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/at-nyu-devilish-shlomo-sand-predicts-the-jewish-past-and-pastes-the-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-116899</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10095#comment-116899</guid>
		<description>Aren&#039;t most people born into a particular religion? Is it wiser to stay so yoked, or to reach for something else as a matter of choice, rather than birth? For example, I was born as as
a baptized   Christian, does this curcumvent any Christian POV? 
Similar, does being born as as a Jew, offer a different POV  s s on the Power that is?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aren&#8217;t most people born into a particular religion? Is it wiser to stay so yoked, or to reach for something else as a matter of choice, rather than birth? For example, I was born as as<br />
a baptized   Christian, does this curcumvent any Christian POV?<br />
Similar, does being born as as a Jew, offer a different POV  s s on the Power that is?</p>
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		<title>By: Citizen</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/at-nyu-devilish-shlomo-sand-predicts-the-jewish-past-and-pastes-the-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-116898</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10095#comment-116898</guid>
		<description>Aren&#039;t most people born into a particular religion? Is it wiser to stay so yoked, or to reach for something else as a matter of choice, rather than birth? For example, I was born as as
a baptized   Christian, does this curcumvent any Christian POV? 
Similar, does being born as as a Jew, offer a different POV  s s on the Power that is?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aren&#8217;t most people born into a particular religion? Is it wiser to stay so yoked, or to reach for something else as a matter of choice, rather than birth? For example, I was born as as<br />
a baptized   Christian, does this curcumvent any Christian POV?<br />
Similar, does being born as as a Jew, offer a different POV  s s on the Power that is?</p>
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		<title>By: Swine flu vaccine: patriot victory?; Shlomo Sand &#171; www.johndenugent.com</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/at-nyu-devilish-shlomo-sand-predicts-the-jewish-past-and-pastes-the-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-116810</link>
		<dc:creator>Swine flu vaccine: patriot victory?; Shlomo Sand &#171; www.johndenugent.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10095#comment-116810</guid>
		<description>[...] by Philip Weiss on October 17, 2009 · 161 comments [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by Philip Weiss on October 17, 2009 · 161 comments [...]</p>
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		<title>By: wondering jew</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/at-nyu-devilish-shlomo-sand-predicts-the-jewish-past-and-pastes-the-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-116717</link>
		<dc:creator>wondering jew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 01:27:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10095#comment-116717</guid>
		<description>Saleema- It is true that a converted Jew does not become part of the Jewish ethnicity upon conversion.  The assignment of Abraham as one&#039;s father combines both elements: the religious and the national.  Abraham was told that he would be the father to many nations.  When one converts one is given a new father.  The analogy that comes to mind is adoption.  Imagine a child who is raised by a family that he wasn&#039;t born into and after a bureaucratic hassle government permission is granted for the adoption to go through.  The adoption becomes official. &quot;Son, you are now a member of the family.&quot;  This is essentially the point that I am making.  People might say about that family, &quot;Oh, they have four children plus an adopted child.&quot;  The father might make a point of saying, &quot;I have five children.&quot;

       (Just as that family has elements of biology and something other than biology) Judaism has aspects of both peoplehood and a religion.  When a male converts he is circumcised.  This is a blood ritual to be inducted into the tribe.

       It is interesting to contrast and compare Judaism to Islam and Christianity.   One obvious fact is that Judaism is much older than the other two.  There are tribal elements that exist in Judaism which do not exist in the other two.

         Every person regardless of ethnicity is good enough to become a Jew if they are sincere and show that they are willing to accept the yoke of the commandments.  For many generations prospective converts were warned that the Jews are a hated people, are you really sure that you want to become one of us?  When we were a hated people we were rather sure about the sincerity of those who wanted to join.  Today (in America) Jews are less hated than usual and it might be seen as a plus to join, so the sincerity of would be joiners might be doubted.  Thanks to the new antisemitism maybe we are now coming back again to a time when the sincerity of would be converts is more assured.  (irony)

       Islam and Christianity are religions with more than a billion adherents.  Judaism has barely 14 million or so.  Besides the different histories the varying sizes carry with them differing dynamics.

       You seem to be be trying to stress the superiority of Islam because of its more universalist aspects.  If you were born without a religion and chose Islam then I might congratulate you for making a superior choice.  But if you were born into Islam God made the choice for you.  I did not choose Judaism.  I was born into it.  God made the choice for me.  Are you telling me that God made a mistake?  Are you telling me that I should alienate myself from my family and throw off the religion of my birth because it is inferior to Islam?  If that is what you are implying, I don&#039;t think you are being wise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saleema- It is true that a converted Jew does not become part of the Jewish ethnicity upon conversion.  The assignment of Abraham as one&#8217;s father combines both elements: the religious and the national.  Abraham was told that he would be the father to many nations.  When one converts one is given a new father.  The analogy that comes to mind is adoption.  Imagine a child who is raised by a family that he wasn&#8217;t born into and after a bureaucratic hassle government permission is granted for the adoption to go through.  The adoption becomes official. &#8220;Son, you are now a member of the family.&#8221;  This is essentially the point that I am making.  People might say about that family, &#8220;Oh, they have four children plus an adopted child.&#8221;  The father might make a point of saying, &#8220;I have five children.&#8221;</p>
<p>       (Just as that family has elements of biology and something other than biology) Judaism has aspects of both peoplehood and a religion.  When a male converts he is circumcised.  This is a blood ritual to be inducted into the tribe.</p>
<p>       It is interesting to contrast and compare Judaism to Islam and Christianity.   One obvious fact is that Judaism is much older than the other two.  There are tribal elements that exist in Judaism which do not exist in the other two.</p>
<p>         Every person regardless of ethnicity is good enough to become a Jew if they are sincere and show that they are willing to accept the yoke of the commandments.  For many generations prospective converts were warned that the Jews are a hated people, are you really sure that you want to become one of us?  When we were a hated people we were rather sure about the sincerity of those who wanted to join.  Today (in America) Jews are less hated than usual and it might be seen as a plus to join, so the sincerity of would be joiners might be doubted.  Thanks to the new antisemitism maybe we are now coming back again to a time when the sincerity of would be converts is more assured.  (irony)</p>
<p>       Islam and Christianity are religions with more than a billion adherents.  Judaism has barely 14 million or so.  Besides the different histories the varying sizes carry with them differing dynamics.</p>
<p>       You seem to be be trying to stress the superiority of Islam because of its more universalist aspects.  If you were born without a religion and chose Islam then I might congratulate you for making a superior choice.  But if you were born into Islam God made the choice for you.  I did not choose Judaism.  I was born into it.  God made the choice for me.  Are you telling me that God made a mistake?  Are you telling me that I should alienate myself from my family and throw off the religion of my birth because it is inferior to Islam?  If that is what you are implying, I don&#8217;t think you are being wise.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/at-nyu-devilish-shlomo-sand-predicts-the-jewish-past-and-pastes-the-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-116558</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:47:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10095#comment-116558</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s one of the first things you notice. Going by looks alone, my guess is that each group of Jews has more in common genetically with the poeple they fled than with each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s one of the first things you notice. Going by looks alone, my guess is that each group of Jews has more in common genetically with the poeple they fled than with each other.</p>
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		<title>By: Anti-Israel, with a dash of intellectual pretense - Haviv Rettig Gur</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/at-nyu-devilish-shlomo-sand-predicts-the-jewish-past-and-pastes-the-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-116463</link>
		<dc:creator>Anti-Israel, with a dash of intellectual pretense - Haviv Rettig Gur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10095#comment-116463</guid>
		<description>[...] reflection on a Shlomo Sand lecture at NYU, American Jewish anti-Zionist blogger Philip Weiss describes the &#8220;high&#8221; of discovering a deep narrative for his long-held political beliefs. Of all the events I’ve covered surrounding Jewish identity [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reflection on a Shlomo Sand lecture at NYU, American Jewish anti-Zionist blogger Philip Weiss describes the &#8220;high&#8221; of discovering a deep narrative for his long-held political beliefs. Of all the events I’ve covered surrounding Jewish identity [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Saleema</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/at-nyu-devilish-shlomo-sand-predicts-the-jewish-past-and-pastes-the-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-116369</link>
		<dc:creator>Saleema</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10095#comment-116369</guid>
		<description>Every person, regardless of their ethnicity, is good enough to become a muslim or a christian. No new father assigned to them, but to be a jew one is assigned a new father. Why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every person, regardless of their ethnicity, is good enough to become a muslim or a christian. No new father assigned to them, but to be a jew one is assigned a new father. Why?</p>
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