Comments on: Is equality a ‘nightmare’ for liberal Zionists? http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/is-equality-a-nightmare-for-liberal-zionists.html The War of Ideas in the Middle East Mon, 28 May 2012 16:09:46 +0000 hourly 1 By: potsherd http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/is-equality-a-nightmare-for-liberal-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-118941 potsherd Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:38:33 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10385#comment-118941 Yeranen - your "logic" overlooks the point that the Czechs and Slovaks got to vote on their dissolution, and the world accepted the results of the vote. Are you willing to accept the results of the voting by the entire population of Israel and the territories? Yeranen – your “logic” overlooks the point that the Czechs and Slovaks got to vote on their dissolution, and the world accepted the results of the vote.

Are you willing to accept the results of the voting by the entire population of Israel and the territories?

]]> By: Mooser http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/is-equality-a-nightmare-for-liberal-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-118935 Mooser Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:22:42 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10385#comment-118935 Yeranen, why not save a few bytes, bandwidth is expensive, and just say "No.4, The Whole World Sucks"? Are you gonna pay Mondowiess's server fees? Okay then, read this and save us all some grief: http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html Yeranen, why not save a few bytes, bandwidth is expensive, and just say “No.4, The Whole World Sucks”? Are you gonna pay Mondowiess’s server fees? Okay then, read this and save us all some grief:

link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com

]]> By: Mooser http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/is-equality-a-nightmare-for-liberal-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-118934 Mooser Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:18:41 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10385#comment-118934 Brewer, I don't want to ruin your day, but you have gained me as a reader. And to top it off, I like the "template" you use for your blog. It's easy on the eyes and very readable. And I should have mentioned that your list of links is indexed by referencing each bit of Hasbara dealt with in the linked articles. It looks like a good resource. Brewer, I don’t want to ruin your day, but you have gained me as a reader.

And to top it off, I like the “template” you use for your blog. It’s easy on the eyes and very readable.

And I should have mentioned that your list of links is indexed by referencing each bit of Hasbara dealt with in the linked articles. It looks like a good resource.

]]> By: Shmuel http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/is-equality-a-nightmare-for-liberal-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-118828 Shmuel Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:12:35 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10385#comment-118828 Potsherd, "Who is a Jew?" isn't the half of it. The Jewish majority in Israel is deeply divided, and incapable of coming up with a document representing "shared values". The ultra-Orthodox and many of the Orthodox don't want a constitution at all, because the Jewish People already has one: the Torah. The only ones who are bothered by the lack of a constitution are left-wingers who, for the most part, want a modern liberal-democratic constitution (with a Zionist escape clause regarding the "Jewish and democratic" character of the state) - values unacceptable to most of the Jewish population. The others are perfectly happy with the current situation, although they would really like to do something about those busy-body lefty judges on the Supreme Court. In other words, anyone who really cares about Israel's lack of a written constitution knows it's a can of worms better left unopened. Potsherd,
“Who is a Jew?” isn’t the half of it. The Jewish majority in Israel is deeply divided, and incapable of coming up with a document representing “shared values”. The ultra-Orthodox and many of the Orthodox don’t want a constitution at all, because the Jewish People already has one: the Torah. The only ones who are bothered by the lack of a constitution are left-wingers who, for the most part, want a modern liberal-democratic constitution (with a Zionist escape clause regarding the “Jewish and democratic” character of the state) – values unacceptable to most of the Jewish population. The others are perfectly happy with the current situation, although they would really like to do something about those busy-body lefty judges on the Supreme Court. In other words, anyone who really cares about Israel’s lack of a written constitution knows it’s a can of worms better left unopened.

]]> By: potsherd http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/is-equality-a-nightmare-for-liberal-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-118778 potsherd Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:28:27 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10385#comment-118778 I believe that the major sticking point preventing Israel from adopting an official constitution instead of relying on the de facto one is the impossibility of defining "who is a Jew." I believe that the major sticking point preventing Israel from adopting an official constitution instead of relying on the de facto one is the impossibility of defining “who is a Jew.”

]]> By: Brewer http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/is-equality-a-nightmare-for-liberal-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-118775 Brewer Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:16:53 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10385#comment-118775 Thanks for the boost Mooser. My blog is way overdue for an overhaul and the database project has never been completed. I will try to find the time to update any dead links. The "Brits" article uses only the original documents. Thanks for the boost Mooser.

My blog is way overdue for an overhaul and the database project has never been completed. I will try to find the time to update any dead links.

The “Brits” article uses only the original documents.

]]> By: Mooser http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/is-equality-a-nightmare-for-liberal-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-118771 Mooser Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:56:08 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10385#comment-118771 “Britain’s sorry record of appeasement of the Arabs"</i> Everybody owes the Zionists. All the world owes you something. So Britian defeated the Ottoman Turks, and regained the Holy Land for the West, but that's not good enough for you Zionists, no, a special state for you they have to set up right away. Gosh, Zionists make me sick. The two countries in the world US and Britian, which have probably done more for (dare I say it?) "the Jews" than anywhere else, but they can never do enough for you Zionists. You guys are gonna come to a bad end, Have you never heard of "the Evil Eye"? Well, baby, you couldn't do anything more to attract its baleful gaze. “Britain’s sorry record of appeasement of the Arabs”

Everybody owes the Zionists. All the world owes you something. So Britian defeated the Ottoman Turks, and regained the Holy Land for the West, but that’s not good enough for you Zionists, no, a special state for you they have to set up right away.

Gosh, Zionists make me sick. The two countries in the world US and Britian, which have probably done more for (dare I say it?) “the Jews” than anywhere else, but they can never do enough for you Zionists.
You guys are gonna come to a bad end, Have you never heard of “the Evil Eye”? Well, baby, you couldn’t do anything more to attract its baleful gaze.

]]> By: Mooser http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/is-equality-a-nightmare-for-liberal-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-118770 Mooser Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:45:49 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10385#comment-118770 From Brewer's website. I don't know how "live" all of the links are, but it looks like it's worth looking at: <i>"Database. Here is a database of articles that rebut many of the tired old arguments used by pro-Israel posters. It is an on-going project aimed at providing a ready reference for bloggers. I will add to it and refine the data into more clearly defined categories as time permits. Researchers may post their own links and report dead links in the comments pages."</i> http://brewerstroupe.blogspot.com/2008/03/database.html From Brewer’s website. I don’t know how “live” all of the links are, but it looks like it’s worth looking at:

“Database.

Here is a database of articles that rebut many of the tired old arguments used by pro-Israel posters. It is an on-going project aimed at providing a ready reference for bloggers. I will add to it and refine the data into more clearly defined categories as time permits. Researchers may post their own links and report dead links in the comments pages.”

link to brewerstroupe.blogspot.com

]]> By: Yeranen http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/is-equality-a-nightmare-for-liberal-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-118763 Yeranen Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:01:40 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10385#comment-118763 I hope that opponents of a two-state solution who argue that it is an inherently racist position are also registering their continued protest of the dissolution of Czechoslovakia on January 1, 1993. The Czechs and the Slovaks should be forced to live in one state, should they not? By the logic applied to Israelis and Palestinians, the fact that the Slovaks and the Czechs chose to separate from each other rather than remain within the common national border established at the Treaty of Versailles is a historical outrage that can only be detrimental to peace and human rights. I hope that opponents of a two-state solution who argue that it is an inherently racist position are also registering their continued protest of the dissolution of Czechoslovakia on January 1, 1993. The Czechs and the Slovaks should be forced to live in one state, should they not? By the logic applied to Israelis and Palestinians, the fact that the Slovaks and the Czechs chose to separate from each other rather than remain within the common national border established at the Treaty of Versailles is a historical outrage that can only be detrimental to peace and human rights.

]]> By: Brewer http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/is-equality-a-nightmare-for-liberal-zionists.html/comment-page-1#comment-118761 Brewer Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:59:39 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10385#comment-118761 "Britain’s sorry record of appeasement of the Arabs" Sorry indeed: <i>"The British responded to the violence by greatly expanding their military forces and clamping down on Arab dissent. "Administrative detention" (imprisonment without charges or trial), curfews, and house demolitions were among British practices during this period. More than 120 Arabs were sentenced to death and about 40 hanged. The main Arab leaders were arrested or expelled.... The British responded to the violence by greatly expanding their military forces and clamping down on Arab dissent. "Administrative detention" (imprisonment without charges or trial), curfews, and house demolitions were among British practices during this period. More than 120 Arabs were sentenced to death and about 40 hanged. The main Arab leaders were arrested or expelled. Amin al-Husayni fled from Palestine to escape arrest. The main form of collective punishment employed by the British forces was destruction of property.[2] Sometimes entire villages were reduced to rubble, as happened to Mi'ar in October 1938; more often several prominent houses were blown up and others were trashed inside.[2] The biggest single act of destruction occurred in Jaffa on June 16, 1936, when large gelignite charges were used to cut long pathways through the old city, destroying 220-240 buildings and rendering up to 6,000 Arabs homeless.[2] Villages were also frequently punished by fines and confiscation of livestock.[2] In addition to actions against property, a large amount of brutality by the British forces occurred, including beatings, torture and extra-judicial killings.[2] A surprisingly large number of prisoners were "shot while trying to escape".[2] Several incidents involved serious atrocities, such as massacres at al-Bassa and Halhul.[2] Nevertheless, it has been argued that British behaviour overall was good compared to most other examples where a foreign army suppressed a popular insurgency.[2] The Haganah (Hebrew for "defense"), a Jewish paramilitary organization, actively supported British efforts to suppress the uprising.... Despite the assistance of 20,000 additional British troops and several thousand Haganah men, the uprising continued for over two years. By the time it concluded in March 1939, more than 5,000 Arabs; 400 Jews; and 200 Britons had been killed and at least 15,000 Arabs were wounded[5] Significantly, from 1936 to 1945, whilst establishing collaborative security arrangements with the Jewish Agency, the British confiscated 13,200 firearms from Arabs and 521 weapons from Jews.[15</i> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine "territory promised to the Jewish people by Lord Balfour " <i>Foreign Office, November 2nd, 1917. Dear Lord Rothschild, I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet: "His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, <b>it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine</b>, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country". I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation. Yours sincerely Arthur James Balfour </i> Nope. Nothing about territory in Balfour's letter to his friend. <i>Nor does the special position assigned to the Zionist Organization in Article IV of the Draft Mandate for Palestine imply any such functions. That special position relates to the measures to be taken in Palestine affecting the Jewish population, and contemplates that the organization may assist in the general development of the country, but does not entitle it to share in any degree in its government.</i> British White Paper 1922 Nothing about a Jewish State there. Did the Brits really screw the pooch? http://brewerstroupe.blogspot.com/2008/06/did-brits-really-screw-pooch.html “Britain’s sorry record of appeasement of the Arabs”
Sorry indeed:
“The British responded to the violence by greatly expanding their military forces and clamping down on Arab dissent. “Administrative detention” (imprisonment without charges or trial), curfews, and house demolitions were among British practices during this period. More than 120 Arabs were sentenced to death and about 40 hanged. The main Arab leaders were arrested or expelled….
The British responded to the violence by greatly expanding their military forces and clamping down on Arab dissent. “Administrative detention” (imprisonment without charges or trial), curfews, and house demolitions were among British practices during this period. More than 120 Arabs were sentenced to death and about 40 hanged. The main Arab leaders were arrested or expelled. Amin al-Husayni fled from Palestine to escape arrest.

The main form of collective punishment employed by the British forces was destruction of property.[2] Sometimes entire villages were reduced to rubble, as happened to Mi’ar in October 1938; more often several prominent houses were blown up and others were trashed inside.[2] The biggest single act of destruction occurred in Jaffa on June 16, 1936, when large gelignite charges were used to cut long pathways through the old city, destroying 220-240 buildings and rendering up to 6,000 Arabs homeless.[2] Villages were also frequently punished by fines and confiscation of livestock.[2]

In addition to actions against property, a large amount of brutality by the British forces occurred, including beatings, torture and extra-judicial killings.[2] A surprisingly large number of prisoners were “shot while trying to escape”.[2] Several incidents involved serious atrocities, such as massacres at al-Bassa and Halhul.[2] Nevertheless, it has been argued that British behaviour overall was good compared to most other examples where a foreign army suppressed a popular insurgency.[2]

The Haganah (Hebrew for “defense”), a Jewish paramilitary organization, actively supported British efforts to suppress the uprising….
Despite the assistance of 20,000 additional British troops and several thousand Haganah men, the uprising continued for over two years. By the time it concluded in March 1939, more than 5,000 Arabs; 400 Jews; and 200 Britons had been killed and at least 15,000 Arabs were wounded[5]

Significantly, from 1936 to 1945, whilst establishing collaborative security arrangements with the Jewish Agency, the British confiscated 13,200 firearms from Arabs and 521 weapons from Jews.[15
link to en.wikipedia.org

“territory promised to the Jewish people by Lord Balfour ”

Foreign Office,
November 2nd, 1917.

Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty’s Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:
“His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country”.
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely
Arthur James Balfour

Nope. Nothing about territory in Balfour’s letter to his friend.

Nor does the special position assigned to the Zionist Organization in Article IV of the Draft Mandate for Palestine imply any such functions. That special position relates to the measures to be taken in Palestine affecting the Jewish population, and contemplates that the organization may assist in the general development of the country, but does not entitle it to share in any degree in its government.
British White Paper 1922

Nothing about a Jewish State there.

Did the Brits really screw the pooch?
link to brewerstroupe.blogspot.com

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