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	<title>Comments on: Bernard Avishai has publicly rejected &#8216;the demographic threat&#8217; argument</title>
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	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/bernard-avishai-has-publicly-rejected-the-demographic-threat.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 13:42:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: MARMOREK: The sun is setting on the two-state solution</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/bernard-avishai-has-publicly-rejected-the-demographic-threat.html/comment-page-1#comment-127499</link>
		<dc:creator>MARMOREK: The sun is setting on the two-state solution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 22:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10845#comment-127499</guid>
		<description>[...] Where is there a model for a minority holding on to such a separate identity? In a recent post on Mondoweiss, Bernard Avishai suggests a possible [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Where is there a model for a minority holding on to such a separate identity? In a recent post on Mondoweiss, Bernard Avishai suggests a possible [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Delegitimization is moving fast. What next?</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/bernard-avishai-has-publicly-rejected-the-demographic-threat.html/comment-page-1#comment-127239</link>
		<dc:creator>Delegitimization is moving fast. What next?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10845#comment-127239</guid>
		<description>[...] corrupted by intermixing with other races. Bernard Avishai made the same argument recently in an email exchange with Philip Weiss. In a nutshell, the Jewish state exists so that Mr. Avishai can more fully appreciate Jewish [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] corrupted by intermixing with other races. Bernard Avishai made the same argument recently in an email exchange with Philip Weiss. In a nutshell, the Jewish state exists so that Mr. Avishai can more fully appreciate Jewish [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/bernard-avishai-has-publicly-rejected-the-demographic-threat.html/comment-page-1#comment-122916</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10845#comment-122916</guid>
		<description>Cliff,

As unjust as the racist white regime in South Africa was, nothing would have changed without the cooperation of liberal whites (except perhaps through all-out violent revolution, which would have has its own drawbacks and far from certain results).  Not all of these liberals were completely committed to a multiracial democratic society, but many such &quot;imperfect&quot; liberals, contributed heavily (and at personal risk) to bringing about change.

Avishai is not perfect.  He still clings to a number of Zionist ideals inconsistent with his liberalism, but his voice is crucial in changing minds - especially liberal minds (Jewish and non-Jewish) - about Israel and Zionism.  Cruise around his blog a little (http://bernardavishai.blogspot.com/).  I&#039;m sure you&#039;ll find a lot of good stuff, along with some stuff that will really piss you off.

Getting angry is essential, BDS is essential, holding Israel and Zionists accountable is essential, but a variety of tactics, allies and points of view must be used if anything is ever going to change.

Now back to that making a living thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cliff,</p>
<p>As unjust as the racist white regime in South Africa was, nothing would have changed without the cooperation of liberal whites (except perhaps through all-out violent revolution, which would have has its own drawbacks and far from certain results).  Not all of these liberals were completely committed to a multiracial democratic society, but many such &#8220;imperfect&#8221; liberals, contributed heavily (and at personal risk) to bringing about change.</p>
<p>Avishai is not perfect.  He still clings to a number of Zionist ideals inconsistent with his liberalism, but his voice is crucial in changing minds &#8211; especially liberal minds (Jewish and non-Jewish) &#8211; about Israel and Zionism.  Cruise around his blog a little (<a href="http://bernardavishai.blogspot.com/).">link to bernardavishai.blogspot.com</a><br />  I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ll find a lot of good stuff, along with some stuff that will really piss you off.</p>
<p>Getting angry is essential, BDS is essential, holding Israel and Zionists accountable is essential, but a variety of tactics, allies and points of view must be used if anything is ever going to change.</p>
<p>Now back to that making a living thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/bernard-avishai-has-publicly-rejected-the-demographic-threat.html/comment-page-1#comment-122902</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10845#comment-122902</guid>
		<description>CMI,

&lt;i&gt;Farmishen&lt;/i&gt; (Mooser dropped the &#039;r&#039;, Brooklyn-style) - v. To mix, confuse.  &lt;i&gt;Farmisht&lt;/i&gt; - confused, in a state of nervous excitement.

I&#039;m afraid I&#039;m not familiar with Yiddish-English dictionaries.  I use my &lt;i&gt;zeyde&lt;/i&gt;&#039;s (&lt;i&gt;zeyde&lt;/i&gt; - grandfather) &lt;i&gt;Moderner Yiddish-Hebreish Verterbuch&lt;/i&gt; (Pardes Publishing Company, New York, 1947), but I&#039;m guessing your Hebrew is not nearly as good as your Yiddish ;-)  

A very incomplete Yiddish-English dictionary can be found online at: http://www.yiddishdictionaryonline.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CMI,</p>
<p><i>Farmishen</i> (Mooser dropped the &#8216;r&#8217;, Brooklyn-style) &#8211; v. To mix, confuse.  <i>Farmisht</i> &#8211; confused, in a state of nervous excitement.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid I&#8217;m not familiar with Yiddish-English dictionaries.  I use my <i>zeyde</i>&#8216;s (<i>zeyde</i> &#8211; grandfather) <i>Moderner Yiddish-Hebreish Verterbuch</i> (Pardes Publishing Company, New York, 1947), but I&#8217;m guessing your Hebrew is not nearly as good as your Yiddish ;-)  </p>
<p>A very incomplete Yiddish-English dictionary can be found online at: <a href="http://www.yiddishdictionaryonline.com/">link to yiddishdictionaryonline.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/bernard-avishai-has-publicly-rejected-the-demographic-threat.html/comment-page-1#comment-122897</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10845#comment-122897</guid>
		<description>Danaa:&lt;blockquote&gt;I agree that it is a bloody shame that no sooner they carved Hebrew out of bits of bible and bits of arabic, that they chose to erect impenetrable barriers to influences that could be highly enriching. It may not be too late for making amends and welcoming Arabic culture (though, in Israel those are considered oxymoronic) but it is for Yiddish culture that Avishai’s prized hebrew one all but killed.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It is true that Zionism waged all out war against Yiddish and Yiddish culture, and was ruthlessly successful in that endeavour.  I am reading a book at the moment however, by Ghil&#039;ad Zuckermann - &lt;i&gt;Israeli, A Beautiful Language: Hebrew as a Myth&lt;/i&gt; (Heb.) - which claims that Israeli Hebrew (Zuckermann calls it simply &lt;i&gt;Israeli&lt;/i&gt;) in fact owes far more to Yiddish, Russian, Polish, etc. than to biblical Hebrew.  I&#039;m not convinced yet, but I&#039;ve only read a few chapters so far.  There is a caveat in the introduction that no political inferences should be made from his thesis.  Like hell :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danaa:<br />
<blockquote>I agree that it is a bloody shame that no sooner they carved Hebrew out of bits of bible and bits of arabic, that they chose to erect impenetrable barriers to influences that could be highly enriching. It may not be too late for making amends and welcoming Arabic culture (though, in Israel those are considered oxymoronic) but it is for Yiddish culture that Avishai’s prized hebrew one all but killed.</p></blockquote>
<p>It is true that Zionism waged all out war against Yiddish and Yiddish culture, and was ruthlessly successful in that endeavour.  I am reading a book at the moment however, by Ghil&#8217;ad Zuckermann &#8211; <i>Israeli, A Beautiful Language: Hebrew as a Myth</i> (Heb.) &#8211; which claims that Israeli Hebrew (Zuckermann calls it simply <i>Israeli</i>) in fact owes far more to Yiddish, Russian, Polish, etc. than to biblical Hebrew.  I&#8217;m not convinced yet, but I&#8217;ve only read a few chapters so far.  There is a caveat in the introduction that no political inferences should be made from his thesis.  Like hell :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/bernard-avishai-has-publicly-rejected-the-demographic-threat.html/comment-page-1#comment-122880</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 07:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10845#comment-122880</guid>
		<description>Danaa:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Seduced by the romance of cultural fervor and sophisticated lifestyles that accrue to those having one foot in Israel and another in the global culture, they fail to process just how narrow their comfort zone is in the land they profess to so cherish, and how great are the casualties that made the culture possible in the first place. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;d go a little further (although I too have respect for Avishai and think he has a important role to play - which I hope to explain below, if making a living doesn&#039;t get in the way today), and say that Avishai advocates cultural protectionism for others, while exempting himself from it, as one of the elite.  Ironically (or revealingly), he cites Amichai (b. Ludwig Pfeuffer), as the crowning glory of this preserve of Jewish culture, yet Amichai was the product of his German birth and Orthodox Jewish education, his Palestinian upbringing, his British military service, his time in California and general exposure to international culture (as a member of the elite) - as well as the time he spent living, studying and working among Israeli Jews.  Is Avishai trying to imply that had there been no Jewish state or Jewish-dominated state, there would have been no Jewish-Palestinian Amichai/Pfeuffer?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danaa:</p>
<blockquote><p>Seduced by the romance of cultural fervor and sophisticated lifestyles that accrue to those having one foot in Israel and another in the global culture, they fail to process just how narrow their comfort zone is in the land they profess to so cherish, and how great are the casualties that made the culture possible in the first place. </p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;d go a little further (although I too have respect for Avishai and think he has a important role to play &#8211; which I hope to explain below, if making a living doesn&#8217;t get in the way today), and say that Avishai advocates cultural protectionism for others, while exempting himself from it, as one of the elite.  Ironically (or revealingly), he cites Amichai (b. Ludwig Pfeuffer), as the crowning glory of this preserve of Jewish culture, yet Amichai was the product of his German birth and Orthodox Jewish education, his Palestinian upbringing, his British military service, his time in California and general exposure to international culture (as a member of the elite) &#8211; as well as the time he spent living, studying and working among Israeli Jews.  Is Avishai trying to imply that had there been no Jewish state or Jewish-dominated state, there would have been no Jewish-Palestinian Amichai/Pfeuffer?</p>
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		<title>By: Chaos4700</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/bernard-avishai-has-publicly-rejected-the-demographic-threat.html/comment-page-1#comment-122846</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaos4700</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10845#comment-122846</guid>
		<description>Of course, you do, Witty. Because if you do, you can deflect attention from &lt;i&gt;your&lt;/i&gt; racism and weaken the meaning of the word as well, the same way you weaken the notions of &quot;international law,&quot; or &quot;cease fire.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, you do, Witty. Because if you do, you can deflect attention from <i>your</i> racism and weaken the meaning of the word as well, the same way you weaken the notions of &#8220;international law,&#8221; or &#8220;cease fire.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Call Me Ishmael</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/bernard-avishai-has-publicly-rejected-the-demographic-threat.html/comment-page-1#comment-122845</link>
		<dc:creator>Call Me Ishmael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10845#comment-122845</guid>
		<description>Thanks, tree, for this link to R. Silverstein&#039;s blog. As quoted there, Dr. Menachem Klein, of the political science department at Bar-Ilan University, has this to say about Dr. Schueftan’s statements:

“He says that kind of thing at conferences, so I’m not surprised. What is surprising is that he says it in classes, because there you have to be more careful. Schueftan belongs to the Israeli neoconservative school, those that were in the Labour movement and saw the light. That school says what he says, though much less forcefully. The tendency towards extremism is making Schueftan popular.”
(...)
“That triumphalist attitude is very characteristic of the neoconservatives. Such generalizations are not appropriate. Cairo has a subway; Tel Aviv does not. Damascus has become a centre for the translation of Israeli works into Arabic. It is illegal to import those translations into this country. So who here is the enlightened one here and who is the backward one? Who here is the suspicious one and who is more open? Arab culture goes back to the seventh century. It interpreted philosophy and took poetry to new heights. Not everything is measured on the basis of technological sophistication. Scientific achievements entail elements of anonymity and lack of compassion. There is a lot less alienation in Arab society than there is in technological societies. His words reveal more about him than about them. But the problem is not Dan Schueftan the person but rather Dan Schueftan the phenomenon. There is a public atmosphere that expects and wants to hear such things. There is a certain degree of obliviousness towards Arabs and the sufferings of others in Israeli society. Against that background, statements like those become possible. I would not be surprised if statements like that are also heard in other universities [in Israel] from the lips of others who belong to that school.”

It&#039;s good to know there are still a few more reasonable voices in Israel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, tree, for this link to R. Silverstein&#8217;s blog. As quoted there, Dr. Menachem Klein, of the political science department at Bar-Ilan University, has this to say about Dr. Schueftan’s statements:</p>
<p>“He says that kind of thing at conferences, so I’m not surprised. What is surprising is that he says it in classes, because there you have to be more careful. Schueftan belongs to the Israeli neoconservative school, those that were in the Labour movement and saw the light. That school says what he says, though much less forcefully. The tendency towards extremism is making Schueftan popular.”<br />
(&#8230;)<br />
“That triumphalist attitude is very characteristic of the neoconservatives. Such generalizations are not appropriate. Cairo has a subway; Tel Aviv does not. Damascus has become a centre for the translation of Israeli works into Arabic. It is illegal to import those translations into this country. So who here is the enlightened one here and who is the backward one? Who here is the suspicious one and who is more open? Arab culture goes back to the seventh century. It interpreted philosophy and took poetry to new heights. Not everything is measured on the basis of technological sophistication. Scientific achievements entail elements of anonymity and lack of compassion. There is a lot less alienation in Arab society than there is in technological societies. His words reveal more about him than about them. But the problem is not Dan Schueftan the person but rather Dan Schueftan the phenomenon. There is a public atmosphere that expects and wants to hear such things. There is a certain degree of obliviousness towards Arabs and the sufferings of others in Israeli society. Against that background, statements like those become possible. I would not be surprised if statements like that are also heard in other universities [in Israel] from the lips of others who belong to that school.”</p>
<p>It&#8217;s good to know there are still a few more reasonable voices in Israel.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/bernard-avishai-has-publicly-rejected-the-demographic-threat.html/comment-page-1#comment-122844</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10845#comment-122844</guid>
		<description>I think people respect that Israel is both Jewish and democratic. The majority of the world recognizes that there are many bases by which people self-associate, and they just accept that basis as real and valid.

I believe that the attempt to shame that association is a form of racism as well.

I have many simultaneous associations and characteristics. I am good at math and I feel that I write well (when I take the time to proofread). Some consider the two mutually exclusive.

The way to influence the world for the better is on the positive side, to emphasize the democratic portion of the identity of Israel (Jewish AND democratic), not to condemn the Jewish portion of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think people respect that Israel is both Jewish and democratic. The majority of the world recognizes that there are many bases by which people self-associate, and they just accept that basis as real and valid.</p>
<p>I believe that the attempt to shame that association is a form of racism as well.</p>
<p>I have many simultaneous associations and characteristics. I am good at math and I feel that I write well (when I take the time to proofread). Some consider the two mutually exclusive.</p>
<p>The way to influence the world for the better is on the positive side, to emphasize the democratic portion of the identity of Israel (Jewish AND democratic), not to condemn the Jewish portion of it.</p>
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		<title>By: VR</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/bernard-avishai-has-publicly-rejected-the-demographic-threat.html/comment-page-1#comment-122841</link>
		<dc:creator>VR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10845#comment-122841</guid>
		<description>Perhaps another way of addressing it,  would be by looking at the &quot;foreign policy&quot; element,  because it has a little more application to the current discussion here in regard to Israel.  Essentially nothing has changed,  nothing, no matter how many people take to the streets and chant,   burn candles,  demonstrate,  etc.  That is the foreign policy in regard to war,  or the support of others to continue war,  colonization,  robbery of peoples property,  land,  resources both naturl and human.  It can be encapsulated in a statement made by Woodrow Wilson - 

In 1907 listen to what Woodrow Wilson said: &quot;Since trade ignores national boundaries, and the manufacturer insists on having the world as a market - the flag of the nation must follow him, and the doors which are closed against him must be battered down. Concessions gained by finance must be safeguarded by ministers of state. Even if the sovereignty of the nations are outraged in the process. Colonies must be obtained and planted in order that no useful corner of the world may be overlooked or unused.&quot;  

Take along with this probably one of the most honest statements of General Smedley Butler of the USMC (War Is A Racket):

&quot;I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.&quot;

Virtually nothing has changed,  and I can say unequivocally that nothing has changed since the beginning - NOTHING:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.monthlyreview.org/0505macdougall.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;EMPIRE AS AMERICAN AS APPLE PIE&lt;/a&gt;

Post swift,  right after the revolution in 1776,  the elite when full bore after empire,  unabashedly and with gusto.  It enriched the few than,  and it does the same thing now.  That is because the concept of empire is always the enrichment of the few,  and it is always pursued to the detriment of the people.  When it cannot be had any longer in the international arena the elite begin to devour their own people at  record pace.  

I have posted this here before,  some may not like the venue because the man speaks in a sort of street language,  very plainly and has the tendency to relate it primarily to the black people,  but it is pretty generic because now they are after everyone,  we are all in the same boat.  

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE9HhMggiTQ&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;BARACK OBAMA,  WHITE POWER IN BLACK FACE&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps another way of addressing it,  would be by looking at the &#8220;foreign policy&#8221; element,  because it has a little more application to the current discussion here in regard to Israel.  Essentially nothing has changed,  nothing, no matter how many people take to the streets and chant,   burn candles,  demonstrate,  etc.  That is the foreign policy in regard to war,  or the support of others to continue war,  colonization,  robbery of peoples property,  land,  resources both naturl and human.  It can be encapsulated in a statement made by Woodrow Wilson &#8211; </p>
<p>In 1907 listen to what Woodrow Wilson said: &#8220;Since trade ignores national boundaries, and the manufacturer insists on having the world as a market &#8211; the flag of the nation must follow him, and the doors which are closed against him must be battered down. Concessions gained by finance must be safeguarded by ministers of state. Even if the sovereignty of the nations are outraged in the process. Colonies must be obtained and planted in order that no useful corner of the world may be overlooked or unused.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Take along with this probably one of the most honest statements of General Smedley Butler of the USMC (War Is A Racket):</p>
<p>&#8220;I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.&#8221;</p>
<p>Virtually nothing has changed,  and I can say unequivocally that nothing has changed since the beginning &#8211; NOTHING:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.monthlyreview.org/0505macdougall.htm" rel="nofollow">EMPIRE AS AMERICAN AS APPLE PIE</a></p>
<p>Post swift,  right after the revolution in 1776,  the elite when full bore after empire,  unabashedly and with gusto.  It enriched the few than,  and it does the same thing now.  That is because the concept of empire is always the enrichment of the few,  and it is always pursued to the detriment of the people.  When it cannot be had any longer in the international arena the elite begin to devour their own people at  record pace.  </p>
<p>I have posted this here before,  some may not like the venue because the man speaks in a sort of street language,  very plainly and has the tendency to relate it primarily to the black people,  but it is pretty generic because now they are after everyone,  we are all in the same boat.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE9HhMggiTQ" rel="nofollow">BARACK OBAMA,  WHITE POWER IN BLACK FACE</a></p>
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