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	<title>Comments on: Goldstone member: Israel&#8217;s toxic munitions could leave Gaza uninhabitable</title>
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	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/goldstone-member-israels-toxic-munitions-could-leave-gaza-uninhabitable.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 13:55:40 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/goldstone-member-israels-toxic-munitions-could-leave-gaza-uninhabitable.html/comment-page-1#comment-120777</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10614#comment-120777</guid>
		<description>Chaos, 

Could you elaborate on why you think Israel is a communist country?  Certain elements of socialism (even in the Leninist sense) were incorporated into the dominant stream of Zionism, mostly for show (as convincingly demonstrated by Sternhell), but even these have long since disappeared.  Israel has a small communist party that has never been Zionist and has always been suspect and marginalised.  A very small number of Zionists were admirers of Stalin (with the mustaches to prove it) until &#039;56.  I can think of other communist-related curiosities having to do with Israel and Zionism (virtually all in the distant past), but none of them a communist state make.  

Anecdote time: Russian revolutionary and Zionist, Ber Borochov - who advocated a kind of national-communism - was once told by Lenin that if he tries to sit on the chairs of socialism and nationalism at the same time, he will end up falling in the crack between them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chaos, </p>
<p>Could you elaborate on why you think Israel is a communist country?  Certain elements of socialism (even in the Leninist sense) were incorporated into the dominant stream of Zionism, mostly for show (as convincingly demonstrated by Sternhell), but even these have long since disappeared.  Israel has a small communist party that has never been Zionist and has always been suspect and marginalised.  A very small number of Zionists were admirers of Stalin (with the mustaches to prove it) until &#8217;56.  I can think of other communist-related curiosities having to do with Israel and Zionism (virtually all in the distant past), but none of them a communist state make.  </p>
<p>Anecdote time: Russian revolutionary and Zionist, Ber Borochov &#8211; who advocated a kind of national-communism &#8211; was once told by Lenin that if he tries to sit on the chairs of socialism and nationalism at the same time, he will end up falling in the crack between them.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaos4700</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/goldstone-member-israels-toxic-munitions-could-leave-gaza-uninhabitable.html/comment-page-1#comment-120754</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaos4700</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10614#comment-120754</guid>
		<description>Well, I guess if Congress can pretend like torture, kidnapping, murder and kangaroo trials aren&#039;t being done by our own government, pretending not to see it happen in Israel isn&#039;t too much of a stretch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I guess if Congress can pretend like torture, kidnapping, murder and kangaroo trials aren&#8217;t being done by our own government, pretending not to see it happen in Israel isn&#8217;t too much of a stretch.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaos4700</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/goldstone-member-israels-toxic-munitions-could-leave-gaza-uninhabitable.html/comment-page-1#comment-120753</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaos4700</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10614#comment-120753</guid>
		<description>Not religion, Taxi -- religiosity. The actual moral tenets of Judaism don&#039;t actually apply, one can see, merely the appearance that rituals and such are being adhered to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not religion, Taxi &#8212; religiosity. The actual moral tenets of Judaism don&#8217;t actually apply, one can see, merely the appearance that rituals and such are being adhered to.</p>
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		<title>By: Les</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/goldstone-member-israels-toxic-munitions-could-leave-gaza-uninhabitable.html/comment-page-1#comment-120710</link>
		<dc:creator>Les</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10614#comment-120710</guid>
		<description>Even if there was not a state of Israel, the US media would be just as Jewish (over time, especially at the upper levels) because of the anti-Semitism that limited occupations to such literate people. In a modern world where information is everything, especially because of the US domination of the information industry, this gives a relative handful of people unprecedented influence. Jews, whether religious or not, who are involved with our media and concerned about what Israel is doing in their name to Palestinians, should take notice of what their bosses at the top are doing, and report on it. Knowledge is power but you have to act on it.

The Israel Lobby uses the US media as a lever to manipulate not just the American government but the American public as well. Those manipulated American Jews who respond to the media manufactured propaganda that Israel is an innocent party, with their support for any and every atrocity Israel commits, must be seen as much victims of our media as are the Palestinians who have the audacity to resist occupation and ethnic cleansing. When dealing with these Jewish victims of the US media, it makes sense to always keep in mind on which end of the lever they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if there was not a state of Israel, the US media would be just as Jewish (over time, especially at the upper levels) because of the anti-Semitism that limited occupations to such literate people. In a modern world where information is everything, especially because of the US domination of the information industry, this gives a relative handful of people unprecedented influence. Jews, whether religious or not, who are involved with our media and concerned about what Israel is doing in their name to Palestinians, should take notice of what their bosses at the top are doing, and report on it. Knowledge is power but you have to act on it.</p>
<p>The Israel Lobby uses the US media as a lever to manipulate not just the American government but the American public as well. Those manipulated American Jews who respond to the media manufactured propaganda that Israel is an innocent party, with their support for any and every atrocity Israel commits, must be seen as much victims of our media as are the Palestinians who have the audacity to resist occupation and ethnic cleansing. When dealing with these Jewish victims of the US media, it makes sense to always keep in mind on which end of the lever they are.</p>
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		<title>By: gmeyers</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/goldstone-member-israels-toxic-munitions-could-leave-gaza-uninhabitable.html/comment-page-1#comment-120689</link>
		<dc:creator>gmeyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10614#comment-120689</guid>
		<description>Yes, Mooser, in your attempt at being sharp you come across rather blunt on this occasion.

I challenge anyone to provide conclusive proof that these substances are either toxic or innocuous, you probably won&#039;t find it because the necessary research hasn&#039;t been (and won&#039;t be anytime soon) conducted yet.

But in the absence of such results most of us (chemists included or perhaps even more so) will continue to take precautions to prevent contact, inhalation and possible transfer into soil or food of such materials. I manipulate vanadium based compounds regularly in my potting-shed lab and am very careful around them, even though they&#039;re not known for their high toxicity.

Not so some armies in the world that use this kind or related substances on civilian populations without consideration for any yet unknown health problems their residues may cause in the medium-long term...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Mooser, in your attempt at being sharp you come across rather blunt on this occasion.</p>
<p>I challenge anyone to provide conclusive proof that these substances are either toxic or innocuous, you probably won&#8217;t find it because the necessary research hasn&#8217;t been (and won&#8217;t be anytime soon) conducted yet.</p>
<p>But in the absence of such results most of us (chemists included or perhaps even more so) will continue to take precautions to prevent contact, inhalation and possible transfer into soil or food of such materials. I manipulate vanadium based compounds regularly in my potting-shed lab and am very careful around them, even though they&#8217;re not known for their high toxicity.</p>
<p>Not so some armies in the world that use this kind or related substances on civilian populations without consideration for any yet unknown health problems their residues may cause in the medium-long term&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Todd</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/goldstone-member-israels-toxic-munitions-could-leave-gaza-uninhabitable.html/comment-page-1#comment-120683</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10614#comment-120683</guid>
		<description>Cogit, my mother wasn&#039;t even around in 1948, so I don&#039;t know what the kibbutz experience was at that time. My kibbutz experience some 50 years later is that Jews did very little of the work, and what work was done, was mostly done by  non-Jewish&quot;volunteer&quot; teens from Europe, or Druze. For the most part, the kibbutzniks were high-handed, bigoted and unfriendly brutes who pissed off their labor, and got tons of sabotage, purposeful laziness and general ill-will in return. The whole system seemed to be an unprofitable joke. 

It&#039;s my understanding that many kibbutzim no longer accept volunteers, and rely on hispanic or other thirld-world labor to be shipped in and exploited. Israelis don&#039;t confuse the willingness to perform migratory labor with citizenship, unless one is Jewish--and by my experience, Jews weren&#039;t expected to perform migratory labor, or worry about citizenship status.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cogit, my mother wasn&#8217;t even around in 1948, so I don&#8217;t know what the kibbutz experience was at that time. My kibbutz experience some 50 years later is that Jews did very little of the work, and what work was done, was mostly done by  non-Jewish&#8221;volunteer&#8221; teens from Europe, or Druze. For the most part, the kibbutzniks were high-handed, bigoted and unfriendly brutes who pissed off their labor, and got tons of sabotage, purposeful laziness and general ill-will in return. The whole system seemed to be an unprofitable joke. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s my understanding that many kibbutzim no longer accept volunteers, and rely on hispanic or other thirld-world labor to be shipped in and exploited. Israelis don&#8217;t confuse the willingness to perform migratory labor with citizenship, unless one is Jewish&#8211;and by my experience, Jews weren&#8217;t expected to perform migratory labor, or worry about citizenship status.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/goldstone-member-israels-toxic-munitions-could-leave-gaza-uninhabitable.html/comment-page-1#comment-120682</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10614#comment-120682</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that neither you nor Mooser read what gmeyers said.  He&#039;s not defending the dropping of white phosphorus--look at the last sentence. Hell, reread his whole post.  

This is the sort of thing that makes one get tired of blog comment sections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that neither you nor Mooser read what gmeyers said.  He&#8217;s not defending the dropping of white phosphorus&#8211;look at the last sentence. Hell, reread his whole post.  </p>
<p>This is the sort of thing that makes one get tired of blog comment sections.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/goldstone-member-israels-toxic-munitions-could-leave-gaza-uninhabitable.html/comment-page-1#comment-120681</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10614#comment-120681</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s nothing wrong with his logic, Mooser--you&#039;re just posturing.    He&#039;s saying they haven&#039;t done the research, so we simply don&#039;t know how toxic the materials might be, but he&#039;s happy his family isn&#039;t running the risk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s nothing wrong with his logic, Mooser&#8211;you&#8217;re just posturing.    He&#8217;s saying they haven&#8217;t done the research, so we simply don&#8217;t know how toxic the materials might be, but he&#8217;s happy his family isn&#8217;t running the risk.</p>
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		<title>By: VR</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/goldstone-member-israels-toxic-munitions-could-leave-gaza-uninhabitable.html/comment-page-1#comment-120680</link>
		<dc:creator>VR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10614#comment-120680</guid>
		<description>It is just the language of self-interest Mooser,  nothing more nothing less (chemist). We heard it voiced here,  many times you do not get such honest statements,   however skewed we think they are.  Unfortunately this is what we are up against.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is just the language of self-interest Mooser,  nothing more nothing less (chemist). We heard it voiced here,  many times you do not get such honest statements,   however skewed we think they are.  Unfortunately this is what we are up against.</p>
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		<title>By: Mooser</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/goldstone-member-israels-toxic-munitions-could-leave-gaza-uninhabitable.html/comment-page-1#comment-120674</link>
		<dc:creator>Mooser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10614#comment-120674</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;As a chemist I’m a bit skeptical about the toxicity of residues of phosporus and vanadium. In large part because the producers, procurers and users of these weapons won’t in a million years pay for the highly expensive research needed to establish the toxicity/teratogenicity of their gadgets and without such research any assumptions remain inconclusive.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Logic like that, and you are a chemist?  That&#039;s the logic I would expect from an alchemist.  So if the producers of the weapons won&#039;t spend the money to prove that these weapons are in fact, dangerous even to those who use them against others, thab they can&#039;t be proved dangerous, or carcinogenic?  Sure, okay, and keep this guy away from the vinegar and baking soda!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;As a chemist I’m a bit skeptical about the toxicity of residues of phosporus and vanadium. In large part because the producers, procurers and users of these weapons won’t in a million years pay for the highly expensive research needed to establish the toxicity/teratogenicity of their gadgets and without such research any assumptions remain inconclusive.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Logic like that, and you are a chemist?  That&#8217;s the logic I would expect from an alchemist.  So if the producers of the weapons won&#8217;t spend the money to prove that these weapons are in fact, dangerous even to those who use them against others, thab they can&#8217;t be proved dangerous, or carcinogenic?  Sure, okay, and keep this guy away from the vinegar and baking soda!</p>
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