Comments on: Half of a half of a half a loaf– in 2 years! http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/half-of-a-half-of-a-half-a-loaf-in-2-years.html The War of Ideas in the Middle East Mon, 28 May 2012 13:55:40 +0000 hourly 1 By: potsherd http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/half-of-a-half-of-a-half-a-loaf-in-2-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-121895 potsherd Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:28:53 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10778#comment-121895 A Kadmina/Labor/Likud would have held a substantial majority with no need to include any of the fringe/nutcase parties in the coalition. But neither Livni nor Bibi would agree to such a thing. On the petty selfishness of a few individuals rests the fate of nations. A Kadmina/Labor/Likud would have held a substantial majority with no need to include any of the fringe/nutcase parties in the coalition. But neither Livni nor Bibi would agree to such a thing. On the petty selfishness of a few individuals rests the fate of nations.

]]> By: Sin Nombre http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/half-of-a-half-of-a-half-a-loaf-in-2-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-121887 Sin Nombre Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:13:16 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10778#comment-121887 I don't disagree with a word of what you say Donald, except maybe to just note that I wasn't really meaning to say this was either good or bad at this point. All I was saying was that I think it is a manifestation of at least some significant segment of Israeli society saying that something has to be changed, and if any near-term change is to come that's where we will see it coming from. In terms of good or bad however even on its face it seems "bad" in terms of fairness for the Pal's and that's not unexpected; of course the first break in the Israeli resolve to stick with their continued occupation and building will not be any offers that are particularly good. Indeed they will be woefully bad. But that wasn't my point. This Mofaz idea does just seem to truly be such a break, and a significant one in terms of moving closer to unilateral Israeli action such as Sharon took in evacuating Gaza. And if that happened in any significant segment of the West Bank—not to mention 60% of same—I don't think that anyone would claim that the game hadn't changed. And my only observation is that this is a potential near-term game-changer, unlike anything else on people's lips right now, and indeed at least some concrete thing to talk about in terms of what the idea of a one-state solution has already accomplished as opposed to what seems entirely theoretical, far-future things like Israel really being put up against the wall to accept same. We'll see; as potsherd observed Kadima actually won that last election and there's no good reason that I see that Labor can't ally with it which would greatly carry the day in the Knesset and the PM's office. And the Israeli electorate does seem to have a periodic appetite to try something different once in awhile to settle this thing once and for all, despite the settler and Likud types who it seems to me are just saying "it doesn't matter if we have peace or not we aren't stopping until we hit the river, or further even, no matter what." As I said then, this simply seems to me to have best potential to be the next game changer if there is anything that's going to do that. Amazing how utterly and totally Obama has collapsed and is cleary unwilling to do anything in terms of changing things. And the BDS and one-state movements, while nice, are in cold-eyed reality still only very distantly realizable theories. I don’t disagree with a word of what you say Donald, except maybe to just note that I wasn’t really meaning to say this was either good or bad at this point. All I was saying was that I think it is a manifestation of at least some significant segment of Israeli society saying that something has to be changed, and if any near-term change is to come that’s where we will see it coming from.

In terms of good or bad however even on its face it seems “bad” in terms of fairness for the Pal’s and that’s not unexpected; of course the first break in the Israeli resolve to stick with their continued occupation and building will not be any offers that are particularly good. Indeed they will be woefully bad. But that wasn’t my point. This Mofaz idea does just seem to truly be such a break, and a significant one in terms of moving closer to unilateral Israeli action such as Sharon took in evacuating Gaza. And if that happened in any significant segment of the West Bank—not to mention 60% of same—I don’t think that anyone would claim that the game hadn’t changed. And my only observation is that this is a potential near-term game-changer, unlike anything else on people’s lips right now, and indeed at least some concrete thing to talk about in terms of what the idea of a one-state solution has already accomplished as opposed to what seems entirely theoretical, far-future things like Israel really being put up against the wall to accept same.

We’ll see; as potsherd observed Kadima actually won that last election and there’s no good reason that I see that Labor can’t ally with it which would greatly carry the day in the Knesset and the PM’s office. And the Israeli electorate does seem to have a periodic appetite to try something different once in awhile to settle this thing once and for all, despite the settler and Likud types who it seems to me are just saying “it doesn’t matter if we have peace or not we aren’t stopping until we hit the river, or further even, no matter what.”

As I said then, this simply seems to me to have best potential to be the next game changer if there is anything that’s going to do that. Amazing how utterly and totally Obama has collapsed and is cleary unwilling to do anything in terms of changing things. And the BDS and one-state movements, while nice, are in cold-eyed reality still only very distantly realizable theories.

]]> By: Donald http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/half-of-a-half-of-a-half-a-loaf-in-2-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-121853 Donald Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:04:09 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10778#comment-121853 That's reasonable, Sin, but I'm not convinced. Hopefully you're right. But there've been people like this before--in America it's always Tom Friedman or someone like that condemning the Israeli right and proposing interim solutions which fall far short of anything that the Palestinians have a right to (even leaving aside one state talk and thinking of the 67 borders) and as Bruce said, when the Palestinians object, as they will, magically they become the people who never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity and all the blame falls on them. I don't think Arafat was blameless in 2000-2001 (I think Robert Malley's account was reasonable in blaming all sides), but it was amazing how quickly the Camp David talks morphed into an incredibly generous offer that Arafat supposedly refused--there's also been a consistent conflation between Camp David and the Clinton parameters and Taba and somehow, no matter at what stage, it was all Arafat's fault. Whatever the motives of the individual actors, that's how it goes. That’s reasonable, Sin, but I’m not convinced. Hopefully you’re right. But there’ve been people like this before–in America it’s always Tom Friedman or someone like that condemning the Israeli right and proposing interim solutions which fall far short of anything that the Palestinians have a right to (even leaving aside one state talk and thinking of the 67 borders) and as Bruce said, when the Palestinians object, as they will, magically they become the people who never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity and all the blame falls on them. I don’t think Arafat was blameless in 2000-2001 (I think Robert Malley’s account was reasonable in blaming all sides), but it was amazing how quickly the Camp David talks morphed into an incredibly generous offer that Arafat supposedly refused–there’s also been a consistent conflation between Camp David and the Clinton parameters and Taba and somehow, no matter at what stage, it was all Arafat’s fault.

Whatever the motives of the individual actors, that’s how it goes.

]]> By: Sin Nombre http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/half-of-a-half-of-a-half-a-loaf-in-2-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-121845 Sin Nombre Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:17:22 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10778#comment-121845 What I think is being missed about this—such as by all the (understandably) excited one-staters over on that other thread—is that long long before Israel started feeling real pressure for a one-state solution it would start compromising. And then if this didn't work it almost certainly would try and very possibly succeed in ending any real one-state pressure by simply crafting and then declaring its borders to take as much of what they want as possible and cut out as much of what they don't want as possible (namely Palestinians). And from there they would figure out how to deal with the arabs among them and the their powerfully influential argument from there would be that any attempt to goof with them would be "interfering in their internal affairs." Entirely within Israel's power to try, an may very well be strong enough to really be an absolute trump to any attempt to force a one-state solution. So what's the significance of this Mofaz business? Well, it's that it *is* a representation of that first step: a mainstream group in Israel starting to see that they'd better start compromising now or their position just gets worse and worse. Not that what Mofaz is suggesting is anything great for the Pal's, or indeed anything much really. But it's still a big change from the present "keep building like crazy" path that the I's have been on and are of course still on. And it will be coming from a big mainstream force in Israel so it's also not like it's coming from ten peaceniks in their basement there. Ergo, all I'm saying is that if you are looking for what big change is coming next in the situation I think this kind of thing has much much more potential to be it than any talk of a one-state solution, or Obama/Clinton actually getting the settlement expansions stopped, or the Pal's caving and going to any negotiation talks suddenly. What I think is being missed about this—such as by all the (understandably) excited one-staters over on that other thread—is that long long before Israel started feeling real pressure for a one-state solution it would start compromising. And then if this didn’t work it almost certainly would try and very possibly succeed in ending any real one-state pressure by simply crafting and then declaring its borders to take as much of what they want as possible and cut out as much of what they don’t want as possible (namely Palestinians). And from there they would figure out how to deal with the arabs among them and the their powerfully influential argument from there would be that any attempt to goof with them would be “interfering in their internal affairs.”

Entirely within Israel’s power to try, an may very well be strong enough to really be an absolute trump to any attempt to force a one-state solution.

So what’s the significance of this Mofaz business? Well, it’s that it *is* a representation of that first step: a mainstream group in Israel starting to see that they’d better start compromising now or their position just gets worse and worse.

Not that what Mofaz is suggesting is anything great for the Pal’s, or indeed anything much really. But it’s still a big change from the present “keep building like crazy” path that the I’s have been on and are of course still on. And it will be coming from a big mainstream force in Israel so it’s also not like it’s coming from ten peaceniks in their basement there.

Ergo, all I’m saying is that if you are looking for what big change is coming next in the situation I think this kind of thing has much much more potential to be it than any talk of a one-state solution, or Obama/Clinton actually getting the settlement expansions stopped, or the Pal’s caving and going to any negotiation talks suddenly.

]]> By: Donald http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/half-of-a-half-of-a-half-a-loaf-in-2-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-121828 Donald Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:36:13 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10778#comment-121828 Back to the future. As Bruce points out below, we know how this movie has gone before. I was excited by the Lawrence piece because it didn't softpedal what happened in Gaza and he also included a pretty good description of the effects (and the petty sadism) of the blockade. I'll have to go back and look at what political line he was pushing--that, perhaps, wasn't so admirable. Back to the future. As Bruce points out below, we know how this movie has gone before. I was excited by the Lawrence piece because it didn’t softpedal what happened in Gaza and he also included a pretty good description of the effects (and the petty sadism) of the blockade. I’ll have to go back and look at what political line he was pushing–that, perhaps, wasn’t so admirable.

]]> By: potsherd http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/half-of-a-half-of-a-half-a-loaf-in-2-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-121758 potsherd Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:15:26 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10778#comment-121758 Perfect, Bruce. Perfect, Bruce.

]]> By: Chaos4700 http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/half-of-a-half-of-a-half-a-loaf-in-2-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-121752 Chaos4700 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:06:17 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10778#comment-121752 Perhaps, but in Europe, Palestinians aren't thrown in prison for so much as providing charity to their fellow citizens under occupation like in the United States. Not yet, anyway, and while there are some parts of Europe (like Switzerland) who are becoming almost neo-Nazi in their hatred for and scapegoating of Muslims, I think overall Europe is in a more sensible position than we are. If nothing else, Europe has more visible scars of Zionist terrorism than we do. Operation Wrath of God wasn't covered up like the USS Liberty incident was over here, after all. Perhaps, but in Europe, Palestinians aren’t thrown in prison for so much as providing charity to their fellow citizens under occupation like in the United States. Not yet, anyway, and while there are some parts of Europe (like Switzerland) who are becoming almost neo-Nazi in their hatred for and scapegoating of Muslims, I think overall Europe is in a more sensible position than we are.

If nothing else, Europe has more visible scars of Zionist terrorism than we do. Operation Wrath of God wasn’t covered up like the USS Liberty incident was over here, after all.

]]> By: Citizen http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/half-of-a-half-of-a-half-a-loaf-in-2-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-121749 Citizen Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:01:20 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10778#comment-121749 But AIPAC kin orgs operating very well across Europe. But AIPAC kin orgs operating very well across Europe.

]]> By: potsherd http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/half-of-a-half-of-a-half-a-loaf-in-2-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-121742 potsherd Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:33:07 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10778#comment-121742 No one would be foolish enough to believe any Israeli promises for the future. Recall that the apartheid wall was declared at the time to be a "purely temporary" security measure that could be pulled down at the quirk of a finger and by no means was intended to establish any national boundaries. How long has it been since the court order the wall in Bi'lin to be rerouted? When has it happened? When will it happen? And in the meantime, while it doesn't happen, the new settlement that the court called illegal is under construction, another fact on the ground. No one would be foolish enough to believe any Israeli promises for the future.

Recall that the apartheid wall was declared at the time to be a “purely temporary” security measure that could be pulled down at the quirk of a finger and by no means was intended to establish any national boundaries.

How long has it been since the court order the wall in Bi’lin to be rerouted? When has it happened? When will it happen? And in the meantime, while it doesn’t happen, the new settlement that the court called illegal is under construction, another fact on the ground.

]]> By: potsherd http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/half-of-a-half-of-a-half-a-loaf-in-2-years.html/comment-page-1#comment-121739 potsherd Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:28:13 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10778#comment-121739 Actually, Kadima <i>won</i> the last election by a hair. But N-yahoo coopted all the possible coalition partners. Actually, Kadima won the last election by a hair. But N-yahoo coopted all the possible coalition partners.

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